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Putin & Russia

Jordinho said:
Putin isn't going to de-escalate no matter what is said or done. Either the Russian military is defeated or he's taken out by his own.

It's easy to say that NATO should waltz in and end it, but the casualties from that could be much worse than what we're seeing now. It will take a lot more information than any of us are privy too to make a decision on that.
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Do you think Putin will lose the war and just walk away? Or would he more likely use Russia's considerable armory in desperation? Which could lead to escalating war and greater involvement from NATO. I am always amazed at how people from afar are quick and happy to commit other people's lives to pointless exercises. Would they be saying the same things if they or their families were fighting?
 
SpurMeUp said:
Noted you answered my question with a question, rather than answer the question! Yes I am against escalating the war. And clearly NATO feel the same. How could anyone feel differntly?
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I am against nato involvement but not against supplying Ukraine with weapons to defend themselves.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Noted you answered my question with a question, rather than answer the question! Yes I am against escalating the war. And clearly NATO feel the same. How could anyone feel differntly?
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NATO have been supplying arms to Ukraine since the start of the invasion.
 
Lilbaz said:
A lot of the population were brought up in the communist era and after that yeltsin. I doubt not being able to get a happy meal or the new iphone will phase them that much.
They have energy, they have food they have housing.

Like it or not under putin their lives have improved considerably. From wages to life expectancy.
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I did caveat that I don't know how western focused Russia is and that there's likely a gap between those who grew up in the communist era.

The younger people in cities are generally better educated, more liberal, more outward looking, more aware of the world around them etc and that goes for most countries including the UK.

People that have grown up around those things are used to them, telling them how hard it was back in the day has little influence on their thinking. It's not a world most can imagine. Like I try telling my kid we only had 4 channels when we grew up but she doesn't care, she only knows whats here and now and I imagine it's the same for most people growing up in certain eras.
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
NATO have been supplying arms to Ukraine since the start of the invasion.
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Of course. And the US have been funding movements that are against Russian control of Ukraine since 2010. The proxy war started a long time ago, and isn't all one-way. However, while NATO want Putin to know he won't have it easy, they draw the line at initiating full-blown bloody war.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Of course. And the US have been funding movements that are against Russian control of Ukraine since 2010. The proxy war started a long time ago, and isn't all one-way. However, while NATO want Putin to know he won't have it easy, they draw the line at initiating full-blown bloody war.
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Sorry, think things are going on a bit of a tangent. I responded to a reply you made to the question “are you against the west supplying arms to Ukraine.”

To which you replied “Yes I am against escalating the war. And clearly NATO feel the same.”

I was just pointing out that NATO are already supplying arms, because your response seemed to answer a different question?
 
If the plan is to topple Putin quickly, might one idea be for Ukraine to launch a token counter offensive and take out a couple of military targets in say Belgorod and Kursk? That could really speed up the coup, if this was seen as spilling over onto Russian soil too.
 
Gutter Boy said:
If the plan is to topple Putin quickly, might one idea be for Ukraine to launch a token counter offensive and take out a couple of military targets in say Belgorod and Kursk? That could really speed up the coup, if this was seen as spilling over onto Russian soil too.
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I think that would be a mistake. Let all of the wrong doing be on Putin, don't give any Russians a legitimate grievance.
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
Sorry, think things are going on a bit of a tangent. I responded to a reply you made to the question “are you against the west supplying arms to Ukraine.”

To which you replied “Yes I am against escalating the war. And clearly NATO feel the same.”

I was just pointing out that NATO are already supplying arms, because your response seemed to answer a different question?
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You can see the difference between supplying a few anti-aircraft weapons and providing actual planes? NATO clearly do see the difference anyway. Providing some limited arms to Ukraine to stop Russia from just walking through Ukraine is very different from creating a full-blown proxy war - which would ostensibly be a declaration of (a covert) war by Nato.
 
SpurMeUp said:
You can see the difference between supplying a few anti-aircraft weapons and providing actual planes? NATO clearly do see the difference anyway. Providing some limited arms to Ukraine to stop Russia from just walking through Ukraine is very different from creating a full-blown proxy war - which would ostensibly be a declaration of (a covert) war by Nato.
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You are right. There is a line but no one really knows where it is, including Putin.

I think the flying of the planes out of Ramstein is the problem they are struggling with really.
 
Gutter Boy said:
If the plan is to topple Putin quickly, might one idea be for Ukraine to launch a token counter offensive and take out a couple of military targets in say Belgorod and Kursk? That could really speed up the coup, if this was seen as spilling over onto Russian soil too.
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I understand the desire for a coup, but I'd be wary of it, the guy rubbing out the loony at the top tends to be an even bigger loony.
No way is someone going to take the risk bumping vlad off would need to then hand it over to a democratic government.
 
glasgowspur said:
I understand the desire for a coup, but I'd be wary of it, the guy rubbing out the loony at the top tends to be an even bigger loony.
No way is someone going to take the risk bumping vlad off would need to then hand it over to a democratic government.
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Putin doesn't have much of a regime around him, unlike the old Communist party days. You therefore just need a public-spirited general or spook to do the job on the quiet. Ideally Alexei Navalny would then take over in an interim role, until elections can be held.
 
Rorschach said:
You are right. There is a line but no one really knows where it is, including Putin.

I think the flying of the planes out of Ramstein is the problem they are struggling with really.
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poking Putin to find out where he snaps isn’t something a sane politician should do.

escalating war - by proxy - is highly questionable too. Just as it was in Libya and Syria and directly in Afghanistan and Iraq. We invaded or fuelled conflict and all we achieved were monumental deaths and displaced people.

460,000 killed in Iraq as a consequence of the war apparently

360,000 killed in Syrian war

approximately 250,000 killed in Afghan wars this century
 
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