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Putin & Russia

DubaiSpur said:
Also, I have my views on the strategic futility of Brexit as a Canadian, and have had spats with @Danishfurniturelover in the past on the topic.

But today, I have to admit - looking at the 'wets' in Europe who, even as they watch a nation be devoured by its neighbor,are reluctant to even do the bare minimum of disconnecting Russia from SWIFT...

...Brexit allowed the UK to make its own decisions free from Brussels, the pusillanimous Germans, and the quavering Italians. And unless the EU agrees on SWIFT sanctions at a bare minimum, it's hard to see how they are anything but useless and cowardly - stand up for your ideals, goddamnit.
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There only ideals are for other people to pay for things, notably defence.

Some might have voted leave because immigration but myself and plenty of others on here said we needed to be independent. I love Italy, my favourite country but having just finished reading the road to valour (excellent cycling historical book) it struck me how Italy had and has some very poor choice in friends.
 
scaramanga said:
It's shameful and embarrassing how little is being done.

This is the point where the UK should be publicly shaming the EU into action. We've long held ourselves up as global supporters of democracy - even using it as part justification for our own military incursions. If we can't can't stand up and take a lead now then how do we expect anyone to take us seriously in future?
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The EU know what they are doing, they are getting someone else to pay for it. Same as always.
 
scaramanga said:
Does that mean the Ukrainian democracy isn't democratic?

If so, that puts you in a fairly small group containing you and a short, angry, closeted Russian.
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If you are Russian you remember when Ukraine was in your pocket/your ally. And you know that there was funding and behind the scenes actors pulling Ukraine away from you. It doesn't justify anything Russia has done, but I am simply highlighting there are two perspectives to this history. We tend to only view one perspective.

What is true however, is that funding military campaigns within another nation, trying to do good, more often than not, causes much more harm than good. Whether Afghanistan, Libya, Syria the local people lose. They pay with their lives and the destruction of their country.

It is far more pragmatic to let nations evolve with local actors bringing about changes, slowly step by step. Had the west not lifted its skirt to Ukraine and tried to pull it away from Russia, we might have seen Ukraine assert and develop itself slowly step by step. Ireland was dominated by England for 800 years. Godness knows what would have happened if the Soviets had jumped to its rescue and funded its fight. Instead, Ireland worked it out itself. And now as members of the EU, it is calling the shots over Westminister.
 
thfcsteff said:
You could (successfully IMO) argue that Brexit has helped Putin see this opportunity. A weakened Europe already fighting within itself. Plus a compromised England - how much dirty Russian cash washes through our shores? Asking for a friend.
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Yep the brits fault what is happening in Russia and the Ukraine. Scumbags the lot of em.
 
SpurMeUp said:
If you are Russian you remember when Ukraine was in your pocket/your ally. And you know that there was funding and behind the scenes actors pulling Ukraine away from you. It doesn't justify anything Russia has done, but I am simply highlighting there are two perspectives to this history. We tend to only view one perspective.

What is true however, is that funding military campaigns within another nation, trying to do good, more often than not, causes much more harm than good. Whether Afghanistan, Libya, Syria the local people lose. They pay with their lives and the destruction of their country.

It is far more pragmatic to let nations evolve with local actors bringing about changes, slowly step by step. Had the west not lifted its skirt to Ukraine and tried to pull it away from Russia, we might have seen Ukraine assert and develop itself slowly step by step. Ireland was dominated by England for 800 years. Godness knows what would have happened if the Soviets had jumped to its rescue and funded its fight. Instead, Ireland worked it out itself. And now as members of the EU, it is calling the shots over Westminister.
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That's the Dunkirk spirit!

Fortunately for us the US thought it was a good idea to get involved in a war in France, Belgium, etc.
 
SpurMeUp said:
This is too simplistic. Don't want to get into the detail of Syria. But the short version is, Assad was quite progressive. Was seen as a stable leader who you could work with - in an area of the world where there was little stability. The Baathist party of Assad's father are authoritarian dictators and quite eveil. But never the less the nation was stable and not the worst. Most in UK intelligence circles thought we should actually back Assad when things broke. Russia did.

But the point of raising Syria is to illustrate what occurs when large nations (empires) decide to fund fighting groups on the ground. The UK funded some Islamic Extremist groups. As did Isreal and others. Can see some of the list here Were any of them 'doing the right thing'? When 30,000 kids were killed etc. I don't think so. Who are we to put our ore in and further destabilise a nation?
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Assad junior was relatively (I use that word purposefully) progressive until his people wanted more democracy, or even a proper democracy. Then he went full madman and started killing his own people using chemical weapons eventually. He was losing the civil war even with Iranian backing until Russia turned the tide by bombing the brick out of the country and killing hundreds of thousands of Syrians…

it’s more complex than this, but that’s the abridged version
 
scaramanga said:
That's the Dunkirk spirit!

Fortunately for us the US thought it was a good idea to get involved in a war in France, Belgium, etc.
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There are no exact rules. Each instance different. Obviously, with Hitler invading the whole of Europe it doesn't quite compare, and the US reluctantly got involved later in the war. But I take the point.
 
DTA said:
Assad junior was relatively (I use that word purposefully) progressive until his people wanted more democracy, or even a proper democracy. Then he went full madman and started killing his own people using chemical weapons eventually. He was losing the civil war even with Iranian backing until Russia turned the tide by bombing the brick out of the country and killing hundreds of thousands of Syrians…

it’s more complex than this, but that’s the abridged version
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But you'd still back external military intervention as a good idea?
 
Where will Putin stop though, if left unchecked, what is he after, reforming the USSR, or does he really believe that he is the hero from the fairy story that rises from the mouth of the Pripyat?
 
thfcsteff said:
You could (successfully IMO) argue that Brexit has helped Putin see this opportunity. A weakened Europe already fighting within itself. Plus a compromised England - how much dirty Russian cash washes through our shores? Asking for a friend.
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It is all of a piece IMO. His goal has always been to destabilise the post-war democratic world order via whatever means -Trump/GOP, worldwide election fudgery, funding right wingnuts, etc. Putin has been playing the long game since his beloved Soviet Union fell to pieces and in his deranged mind he's now come to the coup de grace.

We have failed Ukraine before but we cannot fail them again. How the west deal with this right now is a sliding doors moment for democracy, Europe and maybe the planet.
 
DTA said:
Depends on the situation entirely. I would say we were correct to fight the nazis as an extreme example
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Slightly (vastly) different I would suggest. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...which interventions went well and helped the indigenous peoples? Which of these nations would people say life is better now than under the oppressive regime we sought to remove?
 
SpurMeUp said:
There are no exact rules. Each instance different. Obviously, with Hitler invading the whole of Europe it doesn't quite compare, and the US reluctantly got involved later in the war. But I take the point.
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So Putin's OK because Hitler was better at it than him?

It's either right to support democracy against imperialist dictators or it isn't. The rest is just a measure of our collective cojones.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Eye for an eye. I don't think anyone believes Putin is doing the right thing.
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The phrase "eye for an eye" is used to describe two equivalent actions with equivalent outcomes.

This isn't that.

The little closet man is invading another nation with absolutely no reason whatsoever. If we were to send troops it would be at the request of the democratically elected representatives of Ukraine.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Slightly (vastly) different I would suggest. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...which interventions went well and helped the indigenous peoples? Which of these nations would people say life is better now than under the oppressive regime we sought to remove?
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each of those are very different. Iraq for example. When Sadam was gassing the Kurds then we should have intervened and given the Kurds their own state.

second gulf war was a travesty. And brought about isis

Syria would be democratic (probably flawed) country now if the west didn’t allow Russia to back Assad.

Libya ah man what a Fück up that was. No intervention there for me

like I said depends on the situation
 
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