Putin & Russia

[Gutter Boy]

The Georgians are doing their bit. Last night's crackdown on protests only resulted in larger numbers coming out. Hopefully, that will continue.

Yeah, its looking promising. They just have to be a bit careful, locked in between Russia and Turkey like that.

It might be easier for Moldova. I wonder if they might actually just reunify with Romania (they are ethnic Romanians) as a way to fastrack into Nato and the EU.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Proxy wars. Another way the US believe they can push back against Russia. Fuk the innocent Syrians who’s nation is flattened, and hundreds of thousands slain (over 300,000), millions more displaced and messed up for life. Who cares?

No one it seems. The big game is more fun. Pawn forward two squares, your move…

 

[Gutter Boy]

Proxy wars. Another way the US believe they can push back against Russia. Fuk the innocent Syrians who’s nation is flattened, and hundreds of thousands slain (over 300,000), millions more displaced and messed up for life. Who cares?

No one it seems. The big game is more fun. Pawn forward two squares, your move…

If the popular democratic opposition had won in 2011, the whole world would be in an awful lot better place now.

Putin's meddling created the radicalisation of that movement into IS and the subsequent European migration crisis.

In hindsight France should have gotten in ahead of Russia and supported the rebels with the original toppling of Assad.

If anything Turkey now are the puppet master of this new rising, not France or the US

 

[SpurMeUp]

If the popular democratic opposition had won in 2011, the whole world would be in an awful lot better place now.

Putin's meddling created the radicalisation of that movement into IS and the subsequent European migration crisis.

In hindsight France should have gotten in ahead of Russia and supported the rebels with the original toppling of Assad.

If anything Turkey now are the puppet master of this new rising, not France or the US

You mentioned quite a few nations, but forgot the two most important in this war: Israel and the US. Others have skin in the game. Iran, Russia etc, but Israel drives a lot of the undercover interventions, and the US supplies the weaponry. Israel tries to purge its opponents, the US playing chess with the Russian empire.

As for the roots of the conflict, Europe were okay with Asad truth be told, before it became a nato vs Iran, Russia, Asad war. Trained as a dentist, and an Anglophile, we knew we could work with Assad. His fathers Baathist party are despots and abusive of their people, but in such an unstable region, at least Syria had some structure. It wasn't a failed state. People had a decent quality of life, if you didn't try to oppose the government. A far cry from the train-wreck of a nation that we see today.

How does the West keep doing the same thing so badly? Libya - Hilary Clinton turned it from a relatively prosperous nation into a failed state. Afghanistan - once a progressive Muslim nation with women going to Universities. Now a Taliban state with no education for women at all. Iraq - the US and nato intervened and created Islamic State! FFS. Which is still in the region. To this day, the country is violent and unstable. Not that anyone gives a toss. We crudely celebrate 'our side' pushing back against the Russians, partaking in the idiocy with zero regard for the real suffering inflicted.

 

[Kompakted]

Whatever you think about him, put it to one side. Watch Donald Trump's speech from last week on the importance de-escalating and ending conflict in Ukraine and the wider proxy conflict that has been going on between the West and allies and Russia/China/Iran etc for years.

Trump puts on a bit of a clown act sometimes and he enjoys the wind-up, but this was grown-up, insightful and deadly serious. You will not see a more coherent and accurate articulation of the root cause and importance of ending these conflicts anywhere.

The bit about the establishment in the west continually pushing for us to get involved in foreign conflict without dealing with issues at home and without transparency or a clear view on how involvements in those conflicts benefit home citizens rang extremely true for me.

Much of our media is propagandist in nature for example when it comes to Russia. The BBC recently did a fact check on Putin's claims that hitting Dnipro with a hypersonic missile was a response to western escalation. They determined that it was Russia that had escalated and stated that Russia had invaded Ukraine "without provocation".

I wonder what the BBC would have to say on British action taken if Ireland entered into informal talks to join a treaty organisation set up to fight Britain and had where Britain had been refused assurances from both Ireland and the treaty members that Ireland would remain a neutral territory.

It's aside the point as to whether that justifies the end response. To tell your viewers that Russia invaded Ukraine "without provocation" is a complete mockery of the organisation's neutrality.

 

[kendoddsdadsdog]

Whatever you think about him, put it to one side. Watch Donald Trump's speech from last week on the importance de-escalating and ending conflict in Ukraine and the wider proxy conflict that has been going on between the West and allies and Russia/China/Iran etc for years.

Trump puts on a bit of a clown act sometimes and he enjoys the wind-up, but this was grown-up, insightful and deadly serious. You will not see a more coherent and accurate articulation of the root cause and importance of ending these conflicts anywhere.

The bit about the establishment in the west continually pushing for us to get involved in foreign conflict without dealing with issues at home and without transparency or a clear view on how involvements in those conflicts benefit home citizens rang extremely true for me.

Much of our media is propagandist in nature for example when it comes to Russia. The BBC recently did a fact check on Putin's claims that hitting Dnipro with a hypersonic missile was a response to western escalation. They determined that it was Russia that had escalated and stated that Russia had invaded Ukraine "without provocation".

I wonder what the BBC would have to say on British action taken if Ireland entered into informal talks to join a treaty organisation set up to fight Britain and had where Britain had been refused assurances from both Ireland and the treaty members that Ireland would remain a neutral territory.

It's aside the point as to whether that justifies the end response. To tell your viewers that Russia invaded Ukraine "without provocation" is a complete mockery of the organisation's neutrality.

NATO wasn’t “set up to fight Russia,” it was set up to provide collective protection against Russian/ Stalinist aggression and expansionism.

Ukraine, much like the Balkan states before them and Sweden and Finland recently, desperately WANTED to join NATO out of fear of Russia. With good reason (see Chechnya, Moldova, Georgia, the Crimea). They weren’t threatened or bribed or even cordially invited in. They had to BEG to join.

Your Ireland analogy is good in so far as you’d have to question under what conditions Ireland would be attempting to join a similar treaty organisation in opposition to Britain. My best guess would be that Britain had gone back to its old colonial ways and they feared for their sovereignty. In which case I personally would be on the next boat across the Irish Sea to join their cause.

This isn’t a “both sides” conversation. Putin’s a clam and this whole NATO expansionism nonsense talking point is Kremlin propaganda.

 

[Kompakted]

NATO wasn’t “set up to fight Russia,” it was set up to provide collective protection against Russian/ Stalinist aggression and expansionism.

Ukraine, much like the Balkan states before them and Sweden and Finland recently, desperately WANTED to join NATO out of fear of Russia. With good reason (see Chechnya, Moldova, Georgia, the Crimea). They weren’t threatened or bribed or even cordially invited in. They had to BEG to join.

Your Ireland analogy is good in so far as you’d have to question under what conditions Ireland would be attempting to join a similar treaty organisation in opposition to Britain. My best guess would be that Britain had gone back to its old colonial ways and they feared for their sovereignty. In which case I personally would be on the next boat across the Irish Sea to join their cause.

This isn’t a “both sides” conversation. Putin’s a clam and this whole NATO expansionism nonsense talking point is Kremlin propaganda.

Oh there's always another side, which is absolutely the point. We have propoganda on our side. The BBC dismiss everything Putin says as propaganda. And of course a lot of what Putin says is propaganda but our side have a duty to report the facts. I've spoken to people that did not actually know that the majority of people in the donbas were ethnic and cultural Russians. Their opinion on the war materially changed when I pointed that out. Similarly when I pointed out the history of some of the Ukrainian brigades and that the US and EU had previously banned the supply of weapons to these Ukrainian brigades fighting in the east under their sanctions regimes due to their neo-nazi ideology, again, people were shocked, they'd been told all of this was Russian propaganda and actually the Russian claims of nazism in Ukraine were merely exaggerated rather than being entirely false.

 

[harr1984]

Oh there's always another side, which is absolutely the point. We have propoganda on our side. The BBC dismiss everything Putin says as propaganda. And of course a lot of what Putin says is propaganda but our side have a duty to report the facts. I've spoken to people that did not actually know that the majority of people in the donbas were ethnic and cultural Russians. Their opinion on the war materially changed when I pointed that out. Similarly when I pointed out the history of some of the Ukrainian brigades and that the US and EU had previously banned the supply of weapons to these Ukrainian brigades fighting in the east under their sanctions regimes due to their neo-nazi ideology, again, people were shocked, they'd been told all of this was Russian propaganda and actually the Russian claims of nazism in Ukraine were merely exaggerated rather than being entirely false.

Exactly. As a wider point than the specifics you are mentioning it always makes me laugh how people in this country reference the 'propaganda' that Russia and the like put out to their natives, yet of course in this country we are meant to just lap everything up and take the news we are fed as gospel as if the powers that be in our country are holier than thou and couldnt possibly be trying to influence.....

 

[kendoddsdadsdog]

This whole

Oh there's always another side, which is absolutely the point. We have propoganda on our side. The BBC dismiss everything Putin says as propaganda. And of course a lot of what Putin says is propaganda but our side have a duty to report the facts. I've spoken to people that did not actually know that the majority of people in the donbas were ethnic and cultural Russians. Their opinion on the war materially changed when I pointed that out. Similarly when I pointed out the history of some of the Ukrainian brigades and that the US and EU had previously banned the supply of weapons to these Ukrainian brigades fighting in the east under their sanctions regimes due to their neo-nazi ideology, again, people were shocked, they'd been told all of this was Russian propaganda and actually the Russian claims of nazism in Ukraine were merely exaggerated rather than being entirely false.

Thanks for not engaging with anything I said.

 

[SkipRat]

Exactly. As a wider point than the specifics you are mentioning it always makes me laugh how people in this country reference the 'propaganda' that Russia and the like put out to their natives, yet of course in this country we are meant to just lap everything up and take the news we are fed as gospel as if the powers that be in our country are holier than thou and couldnt possibly be trying to influence.....

Problem, is the west are not invading anyone to literally take over a sovereign country. Becasue a group of nut jobs in charge are reweriting history, whilst bing stuck in 1950's cold war...

Anyone who thinks Russia are not being grade 'A' c*nts, has a reality problem. Also, nothing compares to Russian properganda, the insanity of the BS they come out with is out of the world, it's borderline insanity.

There was no justification for Russia to invade Ukraine at all. Nothing at all. Ukraine had every right to remove a currupt leader, they had every right to chose if they wanted closer ties with EU...

What the West need to do is not be c*nts and be better allies. If the Ukraine lose this war, this will be on America, forcing them to fight with one had behind their back for so long and fecking dithering of the funding for months on end... allowing russia to build those strong defences.

The west are just c*nts when it comes to being allies... Yet, we will happily support Israel when they are bombing the fudge out of women and children.

 

[SpurMeUp]

NATO wasn’t “set up to fight Russia,” it was set up to provide collective protection against Russian/ Stalinist aggression and expansionism.

Ukraine, much like the Balkan states before them and Sweden and Finland recently, desperately WANTED to join NATO out of fear of Russia. With good reason (see Chechnya, Moldova, Georgia, the Crimea). They weren’t threatened or bribed or even cordially invited in. They had to BEG to join.

Your Ireland analogy is good in so far as you’d have to question under what conditions Ireland would be attempting to join a similar treaty organisation in opposition to Britain. My best guess would be that Britain had gone back to its old colonial ways and they feared for their sovereignty. In which case I personally would be on the next boat across the Irish Sea to join their cause.

This isn’t a “both sides” conversation. Putin’s a clam and this whole NATO expansionism nonsense talking point is Kremlin propaganda.

Generally, is life black and white? Especially in history, with years of detail and background. No boubt Putin is a clam. What’s less understood are the various moves and provocations from the quasi-US-NATO-empire.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Generally, is life black and white, especially in history, with years of detail and background. No boubt Putin is a clam. What’s less understood are the various moves and provocations from the quasi-US-NATO-empire.

 

[kendoddsdadsdog]

Generally, is life black and white? Especially in history, with years of detail and background. No boubt Putin is a clam. What’s less understood are the various moves and provocations from the quasi-US-NATO-empire.

What moves and provocations?
Countries joining a pact saying “if someone attacks one of us, they attack all of us?”

Totally baffled that we have people here sympathetic to Putin.

 

[SpurMeUp]

What moves and provocations?
Countries joining a pact saying “if someone attacks one of us, they attack all of us?”

Totally baffled that we have people here sympathetic to Putin.

Is history black and white? You weren't able to answer. Instead I'll ask one more question: would Russia have been justified to send arms and intelligence to Iraq when the Nato usual suspects invaded a sovereign nation?

You can look up US funding to manipulate democracy in Ukraine dating back to the early 2000s. Of course Russia were doing the same, manipulating democracy to keep Ukraine within their sphere of influence. The idea that say Russia started messing around in Scotland trying to pull it away from the UK, and maybe you can see this occurring in Ukraine isn't just black and white. Maybe you will be able to step outside your bias. Probably not, but you never know.

 

[Kompakted]

What moves and provocations?
Countries joining a pact saying “if someone attacks one of us, they attack all of us?”

Totally baffled that we have people here sympathetic to Putin.

Who is sympathetic to putin? I've got 3 young children and we've never been closer to involving ourselves in an actual war with a nuclear state that, when it boils down to it, has nothing to do with us. And on whose authority do they take these decisions to allow Ukraine to fire British missiles into Russia and continually poke a bear we don't need to poke because "west is best"/"captain democracy"....not on my authority. Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Libya, Palestine, Israel, Ukraine. Our politicians just need to stop. I want peace. I want security. And I am struggling to sleep at night sometimes because there's a load of blokes waving their dingdongs around and nobody in our media will even question it. It's disgusting if you ask me. They can all f*** off with their "foreign interventions"

 

[kendoddsdadsdog]

Is history black and white? You weren't able to answer. Instead I'll ask one more question: would Russia have been justified to send arms and intelligence to Iraq when the Nato usual suspects invaded a sovereign nation?

You can look up US funding to manipulate democracy in Ukraine dating back to the early 2000s. Of course Russia were doing the same, manipulating democracy to keep Ukraine within their sphere of influence. The idea that say Russia started messing around in Scotland trying to pull it away from the UK, and maybe you can see this occurring in Ukraine isn't just black and white. Maybe you will be able to step outside your bias. Probably not, but you never know.

No, history isn’t black and white. Well done.

Another splendid analogy here. By extension, should it be revealed that Russia was messing around in Scotland’s democracy (hardly beyond the realms of imagination, that), you would think it justifiable for England to invade Scotland, besiege and flatten cities, bomb hospitals, kidnap children, kill tens of thousands of Scots etc etc?

This place has gone mad in the last few months. I’m out.

 

[glasgowspur]

No, history isn’t black and white. Well done.

Another splendid analogy here. By extension, should it be revealed that Russia was messing around in Scotland’s democracy (hardly beyond the realms of imagination, that), you would think it justifiable for England to invade Scotland, besiege and flatten cities, bomb hospitals, kidnap children, kill tens of thousands of Scots etc etc?

This place has gone mad in the last few months. I’m out.

Who wasn't messing about with Scotlands democracy?
Everybody in the world had their say, 90% of was s h I t
And 99.99999999999% knew fudge all about it and would never ever live here.

 

[SpurMeUp]

No, history isn’t black and white. Well done.

I'll take it. Cheers.

Another splendid analogy here. By extension, should it be revealed that Russia was messing around in Scotland’s democracy (hardly beyond the realms of imagination, that),

Totally. If they could they would. But understanding why is what you are missing. Because the US has been meddling in their back yard since the early 2000s. At that time Russia wasn't trying to subvert. In truth they reacted to provocation.

you would think it justifiable for England to invade Scotland, besiege and flatten cities, bomb hospitals, kidnap children, kill tens of thousands of Scots etc etc?

No. And I agreed with you that Putin was a clam. Though if nato (and we may as well call it that) had not intervened with intelligence and arms there wouldn't have been bloodshed. A bit like the initial phase of the Iraq war it wouldn't have over in a couple of days.

This place has gone mad in the last few months. I’m out.

If you want to stay cocooned in dominant narratives, and are not interested in learning nuances, who I am to care? Go back to your black and white happy place.

 

[johnola]

NATO wasn’t “set up to fight Russia,” it was set up to provide collective protection against Russian/ Stalinist aggression and expansionism.

Ukraine, much like the Balkan states before them and Sweden and Finland recently, desperately WANTED to join NATO out of fear of Russia. With good reason (see Chechnya, Moldova, Georgia, the Crimea). They weren’t threatened or bribed or even cordially invited in. They had to BEG to join.

Your Ireland analogy is good in so far as you’d have to question under what conditions Ireland would be attempting to join a similar treaty organisation in opposition to Britain. My best guess would be that Britain had gone back to its old colonial ways and they feared for their sovereignty. In which case I personally would be on the next boat across the Irish Sea to join their cause.

This isn’t a “both sides” conversation. Putin’s a clam and this whole NATO expansionism nonsense talking point is Kremlin propaganda.

I’d sink your boat only all that plastic in the ocean would give me pause.

You do understand that areas of the UK have been wholly Colonised by the Irish don’t you?

Just like they Colonised America, Australia and on and on.

 

[Gutter Boy]

No, history isn’t black and white. Well done.

Another splendid analogy here. By extension, should it be revealed that Russia was messing around in Scotland’s democracy (hardly beyond the realms of imagination, that), you would think it justifiable for England to invade Scotland, besiege and flatten cities, bomb hospitals, kidnap children, kill tens of thousands of Scots etc etc?

This place has gone mad in the last few months. I’m out.

The French have been meddling in Scotland for centuries. Bonny Prince Charlie, and then big attempted Ecosse number plate coup of the 1980s.