Politics, politics, politics

[SpurMeUp]

Frankly, Brexit makes me want to bang my head against a wall but I similarly respect your view and I hope that the vision you have of how the UK would look post Brexit is how it turns out. I don't think it will be some kind of Mad Max wasteland by any means but I do think we'll be a poorer, more insular nation, potentially smaller, potentially having fudged Ireland up the ass and potentially with slightly more deregulation to attempt to balance the negative short-medium term effects.

...and you wonder why Danish is a fan!?

Again, agreed that the EU's current approach to Africa is reprehensible. Fully agreed. Though he's delusional if he thinks the UK isn't making a pretty penny from that and won't continue to throw its weight around to take advantage of poorer nations.

Also agree that the EU is a corporatist club. Ironically again, the UK is probably one of the most corporate countries in there and this dream of some kind of left wing exit from the EU is a dream. Look at the current party, look at their rhetoric, look at some of the ways people have suggested we could deal with a no deal Brexit and then please explain to me how we're going to become less corporate, more protective of workers rights with Brexit?

The EU is irrelevent to trade is genuinely one of the stupidest things I have ever read in my life. Its good to be global, I want the UK to be global. However, many countries (especially those with advanced economies) will have their closer neighbours as amongst their biggest trading partners. And most of them are in....a trade association with their partners. Apparently we're different though.

I've always been a remainer, won't hide that. I've always also thought there are some big problems with the EU. I think that many of these problems will get worse with Brexit. I guess we will see though. I hope the UK becomes a global player with beneficial bilateral trade deals, cultural exchange, workers rights and an open, tolerant approach to immigration, then great, count me in. Colour me skeptical though and most of the types who I've met who support Brexit don't exactly fill me with hope either.

Good post.

Is the EUs approach to Africa so bad? It provided 10s of billions of aid https://ec.europa.eu/europeaid/regi...ogrammes-eu-development-assistance-african_en and has various programmes I can't say I've understood. Haven't people on here said that the EU doesn't have any tariffs for the 50 poorest nations so long as what is traded is not arms? Which covers African nations. Is this correct?

It's interesting to hear new perspectives. What are the big problems with the EU? I think we can gain more from those who are pro remain outlining EU problems, and those who are pro brexit outlining the challanges we face under Brexit. It might be more ballanced.

The only thing I'd disagree with you on is hope and the people who support Brexit. I've met many and they think I am one of them All sorts of people. Business owners, labourers...all to a man decent good people who aspire to the UK being better. That it won't be, is the interest in weighing up why, and debate it on here. Nothing against any posters and credit to those who are open and willing to state their arguements.

ps the hypocrisy of Dyson is that he helped campaign for Brexit saying Brexit would be good for business! Then on its eve he moves his business HQ out the country. Draw your conclusions.

 

[SpurMeUp]

What do you think growth is a measure of?

Prosperity? Nope. Happiness? Nope. All it measures is how quickly we are burning up our natural resources.

A country 'grows' because it's population grows, so more dinosaurs get burnt.

Japan is actually a first world country that has stablised its population, so its GDP is shrinking while prosperity and quality of life are not decreasing. A steady-state economy

Do you like Marxism? Despite it being over 150 years old, it is amazing how much of it still rings true. That the capitalist system is dependent on growth,and that there will be peaks and slumps - boom and bust. One of the things Marx talked about. The Marxist alternative built in his name (communism) never really implemented his vision. But it didn't work. What would?

 

[Grays_1890]

He was telling me how there's a lot of wealth being shifted out of the UK right now. Not because of Brexit but because our Shadow Chancellor keeps mentioning wealth in the same breath as taxation.

Its clear that not many people are honest in their reporting on why companies are shifting or shrinking production. Jag/Landrovers sales figures hitting the buffers in Asia killing their profits, nothing to do with Brexhit but in many outlets thats not how it was reported. Dyson shifting because as with many household products your market saturates pretty quickly, the UK is no longer a target market for them because guess what, those that want a dyson have one.

People are acting like companies moving or shifting offices is new and down to Brexit? It was well before Brexit when companies shifted to Dublin to create the European sillicon valley so they could avoid tax, that was not Brexit but it happened and it would still happen if Brexit was not on the table, but its a nice thing to blame.

Call centres for the banking and telecoms markets being moved abroad because its more cost effective had nothing to do with Brexit, costs tens of thousands of jobs but were people out protesting in their masses for their fellow man then, can't remember people on here crying a river for them when it happened?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Do you like Marxism? Despite it being over 150 years old, it is amazing how much of it still rings true. That the capitalist system is dependent on growth,and that there will be peaks and slumps - boom and bust. One of the things Marx talked about. The Marxist alternative built in his name (communism) never really implemented his vision. But it didn't work. What would?

One of my degrees was in politics and I specialised in third year on political philosophy, so I've read quite a bit on Marxism. His observations and criticisms are good, but I've never been convinced by the solutions. My main problem with it is that I'm as anti-state as I am anti-markets. I'm libertarian (though left-libertarian), so think that as soon as you have big structures they get corrupt and inefficient. My preference is localism - production near the point of consumption, needs driven, organisations generally no bigger than about 150 individuals.

I'm also not blind to human nature and the need to reward talent and hardwork, and punish idleness. I.e. keeping incentives in the form of differential quality of lives. Communism was opposed to that, and so could never succeed. My degrowth ideals are based on a small state that essentially distributes UBI and manages what the (mostly automised) industry produces and trades. But I'd have absolutely no form of social control (of the kind social democratic parties like Labour so crave), other than maybe giving UBI to vulnearable people in a form other than cash.

 

[Legohamster]

Why is Dyson a hypocrite, he is still in this country. But for world wide expansion he is basing some of his business in the far east, seems sensible to me.

Even more so when he has moved to a country with a free trade agreement with the EU

 

[Grays_1890]

Why is Dyson a hypocrite, he is still in this country. But for world wide expansion he is basing some of his business in the far east, seems sensible to me.

Exactly this point, he is moving where there is likely to be a main expansion of his product, the market is saturated here so it make total business sense to explore emerging markets. Like I said in a previous post history is littered with it, happens all the time Brexit or no Brexit.

Dyson has always been one of the highest tax payers in the UK and there is no plans to restructure their tax efforts so will continue to pay tax in the UK.

Its called future proofing your company

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

One of my degrees was in politics and I specialised in third year on political philosophy, so I've read quite a bit on Marxism. His observations and criticisms are good, but I've never been convinced by the solutions. My main problem with it is that I'm as anti-state as I am anti-markets. I'm libertarian (though left-libertarian), so think that as soon as you have big structures they get corrupt and inefficient. My preference is localism - production near the point of consumption, needs driven, organisations generally no bigger than about 150 individuals.

I'm also not blind to human nature and the need to reward talent and hardwork, and punish idleness. I.e. keeping incentives in the form of differential quality of lives. Communism was opposed to that, and so could never succeed. My degrowth ideals are based on a small state that essentially distributes UBI and manages what the (mostly automised) industry produces and trades. But I'd have absolutely no form of social control (of the kind social democratic parties like Labour so crave), other than maybe giving UBI to vulnearable people in a form other than cash.

I didn't know that Hipsterism was a political philosophy. Do you have one one of those silly beards, big framed glasses and wear a bow tie and jeans that are tight in the leg and in the backside look as if you've filled your pants?

 

[Grays_1890]

I didn't know that Hipsterism was a political philosophy. Do have one one of those silly beards, big framed glasses and wear a bow tie and jeans that are tight in the leg and in the backside look as if you've filled your pants?

Away days watching Dulwich or Clapton

 

[parklane1]

So to finish, this thread can be an interesting read, but if I were you @parklane1 I would do what I have done and block and ignore some of the extremist posters, I believe in democracy, so they have their right to their views if they do not go over the line into hatred and bullying(which they sadly do at times) but I just dont need to read their vile crap.

You are right what you say about those in here that are still going on about the fools ( and other insults) they utter towards those who voted for Brexit. As i said i will not block them because in all truth you have to feel sorry for them, they lost a democratic vote but will not except it and since day one they are still crying about it. The same old project fear gonads that they where uttering during and after the vote remains their war cry.

I very rarely enter this thread anymore because its the same old brick from the same old posters ( you know who you are) and as i say it gets boring.

 

[StephenH]

Do you like Marxism

Groucho was king in my mind!

 

[DTA]

So any Brexteer like to answer me why Putin is so fond of Brexit?

He is Also funding and backing the far right across europe...

Why is that?

 

[Grays_1890]

So any Brexteer like to answer me why Putin is so fond of Brexit?

I have not see too much of whats he has has? I remember last year he said the people have voted and May must see it through, then again so did Trudeau and his is as liberal and left as they come.

Give some meat to the bone and maybe it can be talked about

 

[SpurMeUp]

One of my degrees was in politics and I specialised in third year on political philosophy, so I've read quite a bit on Marxism. His observations and criticisms are good, but I've never been convinced by the solutions. My main problem with it is that I'm as anti-state as I am anti-markets. I'm libertarian (though left-libertarian), so think that as soon as you have big structures they get corrupt and inefficient. My preference is localism - production near the point of consumption, needs driven, organisations generally no bigger than about 150 individuals.

I'm also not blind to human nature and the need to reward talent and hardwork, and punish idleness. I.e. keeping incentives in the form of differential quality of lives. Communism was opposed to that, and so could never succeed. My degrowth ideals are based on a small state that essentially distributes UBI and manages what the (mostly automised) industry produces and trades. But I'd have absolutely no form of social control (of the kind social democratic parties like Labour so crave), other than maybe giving UBI to vulnearable people in a form other than cash.

Didn't UBI in Scandi countries fail to deliver anything? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/23/finland-to-end-basic-income-trial-after-two-years Personally I'm not comfortable with the premise. It could create a 2 tier society, where some work and an underclass get hand outs.

What is social control?

I don't know a lot about marx's solutions, but I know his vision was of workers working part time in the factories and fishing in the afternoons. And that Marx thought this setup would evolve out of advanced stages of capitalism (not imposed onto feudal societies as it was). John Lewis might be an example of something closer to Marx's vision.

How would you deal with organisations that need to be large? Railways, telecoms, NHS etc? What is anti-state and anti-market? What reality is no sate and no market? Anarchy? Would we have had the internet or mobile phones with localism? Are you essentially a Luddite? Someone who doesn't like advancement and technology? You've outlined a collection of things, but not really given us a vision of a utopia (I want to believe). De-growth doesn't really mean a great deal other than what we have now but without change and forward thinking. Advancement is a core human trait, I am not sure how you can effectively control or manipulate that chariacteristic of human societies.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Even more so when he has moved to a country with a free trade agreement with the EU

Quite. To say "Brexit will be good for UK Business." Then on the eve of Brexit move his companies HQ out of the UK, is to my mind hypocritical.

If Brexit is going to be good for business why move your company! Those who suggest its just a coincidence (or that Dyson won't be making use of reduced taxation) don't have a grasp of how this world works. There may be factors like lower tax, but Brexit is the one thing happening now, and the thing they are reacting to now. Otherwise why didn't he move the company some time ago?

Sony are on record saying Brexit is a factor in them moving, but why listen to the people who run these companies? What do they know. Why would Airbus and others say they need to consider re-location, just for the fun of it?

If anything companies are hiding their moves away from the UK and their Brexit motives because they don't want to alienate 50% of UK consumers. Jaguar Landrover opened up a new manufacturing base in Slovakia investing £1b in 2018. Prior to that car companies had been very happy in the UK, exporting to the EU. Now if you were the CEO, and you could spend 1b on a new base in the UK that may incur 10% tariffs on exports, or simply setup in Slovikia probably at a reduced cost, what would you chose?

No one intelligent is saying Brexit is the sole factor in businesses making decisions like this, but it is a core factor that pushes some over to the EU, and you are deluding yourself if you don't think it is having an impact, albeit quite small at the moment. If you wish to be rational about it, it is a sign that Brexit offers a rocky road for our economy and businesses. But we knew that. Every economist has been outlining this for years.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

So any Brexteer like to answer me why Putin is so fond of Brexit?

He is Also funding and backing the far right across europe...

Why is that?

I dont know that he is.

But I guess Russia has worries about a totalitarian regime on its doorstep ever inching closer to it. If you know your history we have sided with Russia twice in world wars over mainland Europe. (GHod yes I know I brought wars into it, but history gives us lessons as to why leaders behave as they do)

If you have ever read the excellent prisoner of geography book you would get an understanding as to why Russia would fear an empire on their doorstep. It has done them no favours in the past. I understand the are people in this country(UK) who thinks every act of the EU is altruistic and wonderful but it is not shared by everyone in the world. Certainly by people I know in eastern Latvia, I am guessing also by people in Russia and one would expect African farmers aint to keen on it either.

If he does like Brexit maybe he sees a country defending itself as he wants for Russia, maybe he sees a weakening of an old enemy(EU) that has caused problems for Russia in the past. I know remoaners believe in a world where we all go around skipping holding hands while singing "I want to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony" But Putin is ex KGB he will have been taught history and what a danger Europe poses to Russia.

For my reckoning as long as we still have trident, put resources into protecting our shipping lanes, and an unofficial alliance with the Scandinavian countries to protect the North sea and move towards renewable energy we have nothing to fear from Russia or Putin. Russia is quite capable of destroying itself, the only hope for Russia is for Putin to do a Merkel and welcome millions of immigrants to get the working age lower and protect the population.

But seeing how Russia treats asian immigrants I can not see him doing a Merkel, so Russia will slowly go bankrupt without us having to do a thing.

 

[Grays_1890]

Sony are on record saying Brexit is a factor in them moving, but why listen to the people who run these companies? What do they know. Why would Airbus and others say they need to consider re-location, just for the fun of it?

If anything companies are hiding their moves away from the UK and their Brexit motives because they don't want to alienate 50% of UK consumers. Jaguar Landrover opened up a new manufacturing base in Slovakia investing £1b in 2018. Prior to that car companies had been very happy in the UK, exporting to the EU. Now if you were the CEO, and you could spend 1b on a new base in the UK that may incur 10% tariffs on exports, or simply setup in Slovikia probably at a reduced cost, what would you chose?

No one intelligent is saying Brexit is the sole factor in businesses making decisions like this, but it is a core factor that pushes some over to the EU, and you are deluding yourself if you don't think it is having an impact, albeit quite small at the moment. If you wish to be rational about it, it is a sign that Brexit offers a rocky road for our economy and businesses. But we knew that. Every economist has been outlining this for years.

On one hand you say listen to companies and on the other you won't listen to those saying Brexit won't be an issue?

Building cars in Slovakia is likely to offer a cheaper workforce than the UK no? Probably be less unions with the government giving them a huge incentives to open offices there?

 

[Rorschach]

So any Brexteer like to answer me why Putin is so fond of Brexit?

He is Also funding and backing the far right across europe...

Why is that?

Disruption of the European project.

 

[SpurMeUp]

On one hand you say listen to companies and on the other you won't listen to those saying Brexit won't be an issue?

Building cars in Slovakia is likely to offer a cheaper workforce than the UK no? Probably be less unions with the government giving them a huge incentives to open offices there?

No doubt, yet up until Brexit, car companies were perfectly happy here in the UK. They got educated, well trained people and the benifit of other close by companies doing the same thing. A pool of expertise. So sure you can save a few quid in Slovikia but it was worth being in the UK...until it wasn't.

Who is it I am not listening to, company owners who are saying Brexit won't be an issue? The only one we've discussed who said that and who owns a company, has just moved it out of the UK.

 

[Grays_1890]

You said why listen to business owners what do they know, plenty say its also going to be fine, by your reckoning of business know best it isn't going all going to be doom and gloom. RF Hotels and JPW Pubs owners say its going to be good for UK and their custom base is their business, why would they risk a statement as such? Reuters polled 120 finance and asset management companies and most said impact hasn't been anywhere near as feared (not 10,000 jobs moving to Europe by now as predicted) and one major asset management company with over 1000 staff here was bouyant on prospects, will grab the article for who later.

Like I said earlier companies moving abroad to seek an advantage or future proofing their business isn't new, its not a Brexit thing.

Brexit offers a lovely excuse for laying off you staff and taking massive tax breaks abroad though, something that's overlooked by many.

 

[Grays_1890]

I work in an industry that deals in staff incentives for sales teams, these are huge spend trips abroad for best sales in UK for some large brands in UK, Banks, Drink Brands, Tech Companies, Automotive, telecoms. If there is any sniff off downturn they all to a man pull the plug on them, we have had it for years, gulf war, 9/11, financial crashs the lot. I've been in meetings since Brexit and one of the major concerns was Brexit meaning them cxl them. Not one has pulled the plug and I've bookings well into 2022 so there isn't as much fear of downturn, at least with them than being made out...