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Politics, politics, politics

Banking and other financial services leeches realising the party is over is a very good sign that we're potentially heading towards a fairer and more sustainable economy.
 
@milo can we put up a poll? Or an open question to you all...What do you think the outcome of Brexit will be?
  • A Soft Brexit.
  • A Hard Brexit.
  • A new Vote?
 
the dza said:
I know right? If only Labour would totally oppose Brexit and refuse to acknowledge the referendum result, they'd be at least 20 points ahead in the polls, a real opposition. As proof of this, just look at how the Lib Dems have rebounded from their 2017 lows, to now be polling at around 20%, as the real opposition to the government.

Ok, I'll stop being a sarky qunt for a minute (just a minute). Survation (the lefty's favourite pollster) came out with a poll the other day, perhaps a bit more interesting than others because of the very large sample size (20,000+). Which means that (so I've read) the sub-sections of the poll are more accurate than normal polls (where, the demographic breakdowns might only sample 100 people). Anyway, these are the headline voting intention figures from that poll:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1060866894725550081

And from the data within that poll, the ever helpful 'Stats for Lefties' Twitter says this:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1060886226536935424

and more importantly, this:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1061273678237851649
Click to expand...

hey @the dza my post was also primarily sarcasm, whatever the official labour position I still think Corbyn, as the leader of the party, has a responsibility to offer some check on the current tory clusterfudge

I'm obviously a remainer but can anyone who voted leave honestly say that things are going well?

it's possible to be a leaver and criticise the shambles we have at the minute, we are stock piling food and admitting we'll run out of medicine, we've had two years to sort things out and achieved nothing whilst the only hard facts from Raab are that we are an island and water is wet

nobody is in a better position to publicly question the PM on this and he avoids the issue, it's not good enough
 
SpurMeUp said:
@milo can we put up a poll? Or an open question to you all...What do you think the outcome of Brexit will be?
  • A Soft Brexit.
  • A Hard Brexit.
  • A new Vote?
Click to expand...

I can't see anything other than soft brexit tbh.

The interesting thing will be 3-4 years' time and if the republican voting age majority in NI allows Brexit 2.0, or if remainers actually have the conviction to become a coherent rejoiner movement
 
galeforce said:
hey @the dza my post was also primarily sarcasm, whatever the official labour position I still think Corbyn, as the leader of the party, has a responsibility to offer some check on the current tory clusterfudge

I'm obviously a remainer but can anyone who voted leave honestly say that things are going well?

it's possible to be a leaver and criticise the shambles we have at the minute, we are stock piling food and admitting we'll run out of medicine, we've had two years to sort things out and achieved nothing whilst the only hard facts from Raab are that we are an island and water is wet

nobody is in a better position to publicly question the PM on this and he avoids the issue, it's not good enough
Click to expand...

I voted remain, though am clearly more leave oriented.

I voted remain soley because, while I believe Leaving could be great for the uk, I also believed our crop of politicians would make a mess of it.

And so it has become, its obviously a complete fudge up.

Im of the opinion hard brexit would be better than soft. Soft just seems fundamentally fudging ridiculous.


Gutter Boy said:
I can't see anything other than soft brexit tbh.

The interesting thing will be 3-4 year's time and if the republican voting age majority in NI allows Brexit 2.0, or if remainers actually have the conviction to become a coherent rejoiner movement
Click to expand...

Soft is Brexit in name only. Well, worse than that, because we'd leave any power we had behind but would still be subject to the EUs mandates.

Which, actually, could be interesting.

There seems a breed of remainer here who worship the EU and all its goodness and intent, I wonder if they would like to be effectively ruled by them. A vassal state. Or if, perhaps, the shine would wear off.
 
galeforce said:
hey @the dza my post was also primarily sarcasm, whatever the official labour position I still think Corbyn, as the leader of the party, has a responsibility to offer some check on the current tory clusterfudge

I'm obviously a remainer but can anyone who voted leave honestly say that things are going well?

it's possible to be a leaver and criticise the shambles we have at the minute, we are stock piling food and admitting we'll run out of medicine, we've had two years to sort things out and achieved nothing whilst the only hard facts from Raab are that we are an island and water is wet

nobody is in a better position to publicly question the PM on this and he avoids the issue, it's not good enough
Click to expand...

IMO, the only check that will be worth anything will be voting down May's deal. After that, other options (General Election and/or 2nd referendum) become clearer because according to most MPs who speak on the matter, Parliament won't just allow a no-deal Brexit to happen just because they think May's deal is rubbish. I think it is a shambles and I think Corbyn does criticise it as such. But he can't allow himself to be painted as "defying the will of the people" and give the Tories an easy out.
 
the dza said:
IMO, the only check that will be worth anything will be voting down May's deal. After that, other options (General Election and/or 2nd referendum) become clearer because according to most MPs who speak on the matter, Parliament won't just allow a no-deal Brexit to happen just because they think May's deal is rubbish. I think it is a shambles and I think Corbyn does criticise it as such. But he can't allow himself to be painted as "defying the will of the people" and give the Tories an easy out.
Click to expand...

He also wants it to happen, dont forget. How fudged up is it? We have a remainer sorting out the leaving, and no real opposition to the decisions made because the Labour leader wants us out.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I voted remain, though am clearly more leave oriented.

I voted remain soley because, while I believe Leaving could be great for the uk, I also believed our crop of politicians would make a mess of it.

And so it has become, its obviously a complete fudge up.

Im of the opinion hard brexit would be better than soft. Soft just seems fundamentally fudging ridiculous.




Soft is Brexit in name only. Well, worse than that, because we'd leave any power we had behind but would still be subject to the EUs mandates.

Which, actually, could be interesting.

There seems a breed of remainer here who worship the EU and all its goodness and intent, I wonder if they would like to be effectively ruled by them. A vassal state. Or if, perhaps, the shine would wear off.
Click to expand...

I agree on soft Brexit.

I think we will end up with hard Brexit due to the incompetence you expected.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Soft is Brexit in name only. Well, worse than that, because we'd leave any power we had behind but would still be subject to the EUs mandates.

Which, actually, could be interesting.

There seems a breed of remainer here who worship the EU and all its goodness and intent, I wonder if they would like to be effectively ruled by them. A vassal state. Or if, perhaps, the shine would wear off.
Click to expand...

I don't mind that that much actually. It's a step in the right direction, it will be completely unsustainable/will swing opinion even more to leave, and the only way back in will be with Schengen/euro/no rebate/all the other completely unpalatable nasties.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
He also wants it to happen, dont forget. How fudged up is it? We have a remainer sorting out the leaving, and no real opposition to the decisions made because the Labour leader wants us out.
Click to expand...

I agree, but being ok with leaving the EU and actively pursuing the "Mad Max" Brexit of Rees-Mogg and chums are different things. And Corbyn would have respected the result of the referendum whatever way it landed, no way would that be the case for the ERG. They'd still be banging the drum if it was a narrow victory for Remain.
 
the dza said:
IMO, the only check that will be worth anything will be voting down May's deal. After that, other options (General Election and/or 2nd referendum) become clearer because according to most MPs who speak on the matter, Parliament won't just allow a no-deal Brexit to happen just because they think May's deal is rubbish. I think it is a shambles and I think Corbyn does criticise it as such. But he can't allow himself to be painted as "defying the will of the people" and give the Tories an easy out.
Click to expand...

with all we've found out since, "the will of the people" line doesn't stand up to scrutiny, it's as hollow a phrase as "Brexit means Brexit"

even if you ignore the accusations of campaign fraud and foreign influence the devastating effects on local economies relying on single global employers who have decided to move or the inevitable disruption of supply chains we are in a different world now to the day the vote was cast
 
Gutter Boy said:
I don't mind that that much actually. It's a step in the right direction, it will be completely unsustainable/will swing opinion even more to leave, and the only way back in will be with Schengen/euro/no rebate/all the other completely unpalatable nasties.
Click to expand...

I can see that, but I dont think itd come to pass.
 
the dza said:
IMO, the only check that will be worth anything will be voting down May's deal. After that, other options (General Election and/or 2nd referendum) become clearer because according to most MPs who speak on the matter, Parliament won't just allow a no-deal Brexit to happen just because they think May's deal is rubbish. I think it is a shambles and I think Corbyn does criticise it as such. But he can't allow himself to be painted as "defying the will of the people" and give the Tories an easy out.
Click to expand...

That's misunderstanding the relationship between the executive and the legislature. Parliament can't do anything proactive - they can only react to the government. The government could put its fingers in its ears and go 'nah nah nah' for 4 months and hard Brexit would happen. That legislation has already passed.
 
galeforce said:
with all we've found out since, "the will of the people" line doesn't stand up to scrutiny, it's as hollow a phrase as "Brexit means Brexit"

even if you ignore the accusations of campaign fraud and foreign influence the devastating effects on local economies relying on single global employers who have decided to move or the inevitable disruption of supply chains we are in a different world now to the day the vote was cast
Click to expand...

I agree, we are. And we (or the politicians in any case) have to chart the best way forward from here. In my (highly biased) opinion, the best starting point is to 1. accept the referendum result and 2. begin with the Labour position of a Customs Union and alignment with the single-market in terms of employment/environmental regulations etc. The starting position of Labour in negotiations with the EU is much more collaborative than any Tory position can possibly be due to the make-up of both parties.
 
the dza said:
I agree, but being ok with leaving the EU and actively pursuing the "Mad Max" Brexit of Rees-Mogg and chums are different things. And Corbyn would have respected the result of the referendum whatever way it landed, no way would that be the case for the ERG. They'd still be banging the drum if it was a narrow victory for Remain.
Click to expand...

Well its not like he is putting in anything like a fight now, is it? He is just waiting for brick to happen.

He could be having a big hand in how things unfold, and he is sitting it out.

Gutter Boy said:
Sign TPP and NAFTA with immediate effect and dare the EU to put up a border on their side. That would be the heroic way to do it
Click to expand...

Id have loved to have seen them be so bold, could have added a whole complexion to this. Instead of being so wet the EU have simply walked all over them.

galeforce said:
I think it's the result of doing nothing, we'll fall into it by default because we are not smart enough to do anything else.
Click to expand...

They are smart enough to cover their own backs, and the reality of Hard Brexit wont be to their taste.

I could well see a sudden swing to a second referendum in the hopes of undoing it all so they dont have to deal with it being a reality.

Dress it up as some "will of the people" thing, theres enough noise supporting it, its effectively a get out of jail free card.
 
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