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Politics, politics, politics

So the EU are overruling the democratically elected government of Italy. And demonstrating in the process that any government seeking to move away from neo-liberalism will not be tolerated. No wonder Corbyn is so keen to be outside their grasp before he takes over



Italy budget: European Commission demands changes

The European Commission has told Italy to revise its budget, an unprecedented move with regard to an EU member state.

The Commission is worried about the impact of higher spending on already high levels of debt in Italy, the eurozone's third-biggest economy.

Italy's governing populist parties have vowed to push ahead with campaign promises including a minimum income for the unemployed.

The country now has three weeks to submit a new, draft budget to Brussels.

The Commission said the first draft represented a "particularly serious non-compliance" with its recommendations.

The Commission Vice-President for the euro, Valdis Dombrovskis, said Italy's response to the commission's concerns was "not sufficient" to assuage fears - and the euro's rules were the same for everybody.

"This is the first Italian budget that the EU doesn't like," wrote Deputy Prime Minister Luigi Di Maio on Facebook. "No surprise: This is the first Italian budget written in Rome and not in Brussels!"

His co-deputy PM Matteo Salvini added: "This doesn't change anything."

"They're not attacking a government but a people. These are things that will anger Italians even more," he said.

Why does Italy want to spend more?
The new government has vowed to "end poverty" with a minimum income for the unemployed.

Other measures include tax cuts and scrapping extensions to the retirement age - fulfilling several key campaign promises from the election in March.

A defiant Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte insisted earlier that the budget deficit would go no higher than 2.4% of GDP, although the target is three times than that of the previous government.

The government argues that servicing its debt of 131% of national output - second only to bailed-out Greece - would hurt Italians, who have still not recovered from the decade-old financial crisis.

Italy's economy is still smaller than it was in 2008. The governing League and Five Star parties argue an increase in spending would kick-start growth.

_103693518_086b2036-0a30-4a6f-a4a0-94c46832b58f.jpg

Italy won't back down
Kevin Connolly, BBC Europe correspondent

Italy' has put itself on a collision course with the EU. The dispute takes the eurozone into uncharted waters.

The authorities in Brussels have the right to reject a budget and demand new proposals - and to impose fines - if its requests are ignored.

This is the first time they've gone as far as this down that road and the EU has to weigh the prospect of taking firm measures to discourage other eurozone states from breaking the rules against the prospect of a drawn-out conflict with one of its largest member states at a time when its political energies are already absorbed by Brexit.

The Italian government says its measures are necessary to restore growth and that it has no intention of backing down.

_103693518_086b2036-0a30-4a6f-a4a0-94c46832b58f.jpg

How bad is Italy's debt?
Italy's neutral Finance Minister, Giovanni Tria, and international observers had hoped the country would keep its deficit under 2% of GDP - and perhaps as low as 1.6%.

While 2.4% falls well short of the 3% deficit limit under eurozone rules, Italy's debt level is alarming.

"For the first time the Commission is obliged to request a euro area country to revise its draft budgetary plan but we see no alternative than to request the Italian authorities to do so," Mr Dombrovskis said.

He pointed out that Italian taxpayers were having to spend as much servicing the national debt as on education.

"Breaking rules can appear tempting at the first look - it can provide the illusion of breaking free," he said.

"It is tempting to try and cure debt with more debt. At some point, the debt weighs too heavy... you end up having no freedom at all."

After Italy announced its draft budget last month, weeks of market turmoil followed.

Before the Commission announced its rejection of the Italian budget on Tuesday, European shares fell to their lowest levels in nearly two years.

Following the announcement, the Italy-Germany 10-year bond yield gap, widely used as a relative yardstick of Italy's position on the markets, widened to a new high of 314 points.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45954022
 
So the EU are overruling the democratically elected government of Italy. And demonstrating in the process that any government seeking to move away from neo-liberalism will not be tolerated. No wonder Corbyn is so keen to be outside their grasp before he takes over



Italy budget: European Commission demands changes

The European Commission has told Italy to revise its budget, an unprecedented move with regard to an EU member state.

The Commission is worried about the impact of higher spending on already high levels of debt in Italy, the eurozone's third-biggest economy.

Italy's governing populist parties have vowed to push ahead with campaign promises including a minimum income for the unemployed.

The country now has three weeks to submit a new, draft budget to Brussels.

The Commission said the first draft represented a "particularly serious non-compliance" with its recommendations.

The Commission Vice-President for the euro, Valdis Dombrovskis, said Italy's response to the commission's concerns was "not sufficient" to assuage fears - and the euro's rules were the same for everybody.

"This is the first Italian budget that the EU doesn't like," wrote Deputy Prime Minister Luigi Di Maio on Facebook. "No surprise: This is the first Italian budget written in Rome and not in Brussels!"

His co-deputy PM Matteo Salvini added: "This doesn't change anything."

"They're not attacking a government but a people. These are things that will anger Italians even more," he said.

Why does Italy want to spend more?
The new government has vowed to "end poverty" with a minimum income for the unemployed.

Other measures include tax cuts and scrapping extensions to the retirement age - fulfilling several key campaign promises from the election in March.

A defiant Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte insisted earlier that the budget deficit would go no higher than 2.4% of GDP, although the target is three times than that of the previous government.

The government argues that servicing its debt of 131% of national output - second only to bailed-out Greece - would hurt Italians, who have still not recovered from the decade-old financial crisis.

Italy's economy is still smaller than it was in 2008. The governing League and Five Star parties argue an increase in spending would kick-start growth.

_103693518_086b2036-0a30-4a6f-a4a0-94c46832b58f.jpg

Italy won't back down
Kevin Connolly, BBC Europe correspondent

Italy' has put itself on a collision course with the EU. The dispute takes the eurozone into uncharted waters.

The authorities in Brussels have the right to reject a budget and demand new proposals - and to impose fines - if its requests are ignored.

This is the first time they've gone as far as this down that road and the EU has to weigh the prospect of taking firm measures to discourage other eurozone states from breaking the rules against the prospect of a drawn-out conflict with one of its largest member states at a time when its political energies are already absorbed by Brexit.

The Italian government says its measures are necessary to restore growth and that it has no intention of backing down.

_103693518_086b2036-0a30-4a6f-a4a0-94c46832b58f.jpg

How bad is Italy's debt?
Italy's neutral Finance Minister, Giovanni Tria, and international observers had hoped the country would keep its deficit under 2% of GDP - and perhaps as low as 1.6%.

While 2.4% falls well short of the 3% deficit limit under eurozone rules, Italy's debt level is alarming.

"For the first time the Commission is obliged to request a euro area country to revise its draft budgetary plan but we see no alternative than to request the Italian authorities to do so," Mr Dombrovskis said.

He pointed out that Italian taxpayers were having to spend as much servicing the national debt as on education.

"Breaking rules can appear tempting at the first look - it can provide the illusion of breaking free," he said.

"It is tempting to try and cure debt with more debt. At some point, the debt weighs too heavy... you end up having no freedom at all."

After Italy announced its draft budget last month, weeks of market turmoil followed.

Before the Commission announced its rejection of the Italian budget on Tuesday, European shares fell to their lowest levels in nearly two years.

Following the announcement, the Italy-Germany 10-year bond yield gap, widely used as a relative yardstick of Italy's position on the markets, widened to a new high of 314 points.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45954022

From what I can gather reading that, the issue is that Italy are on the Euro currency. Something that doesn't apply to us, in or out of the EU. I wouldn't want us in the Euro either and this is a good example of why, but being in the EU whilst not having the Euro, not being in Schengen, having a veto, rebate etc. does seem to be quite a good position to be in.
 
:eek::eek:

Next they'll be contributing to the economy...


The leaders of the Establishment :oops:People's Vote:rolleyes: such as Chuka Umunna, Anna Soubrey and Vince Cable stated on mainstream TV that over 700,000 British people were demonstrating for the right to a second referendum.. They're lying as they had no way of knowing how many people had turned up, and also were not being totally honest with regards to the Demo's demographics... I know people who went to the march and they were proud of the fact that many Europeans had joined them!
 
Coming over here, filling all of our vacancies, propping up our pension funds, positively influencing our way of life and diversity...

And the downsides to uncontrolled mass immigration, that's if there are any downsides as far as you're concerned?
 
The leaders of the Establishment :oops:People's Vote:rolleyes: such as Chuka Umunna, Anna Soubrey and Vince Cable stated on mainstream TV that over 700,000 British people were demonstrating for the right to a second referendum.. They're lying as they had no way of knowing how many people had turned up, and also were not being totally honest with regards to the Demo's demographics... I know people who went to the march and they were proud of the fact that many Europeans had joined them!
Yep there is only 30,000 people here.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...te-march-london-second-referendum-brexit-live
 
The leaders of the Establishment :oops:People's Vote:rolleyes: such as Chuka Umunna, Anna Soubrey and Vince Cable stated on mainstream TV that over 700,000 British people were demonstrating for the right to a second referendum.. They're lying as they had no way of knowing how many people had turned up, and also were not being totally honest with regards to the Demo's demographics... I know people who went to the march and they were proud of the fact that many Europeans had joined them!

99% of the people there were European I should imagine, we are a European country.
 
No, I don’t see any downsides to migratory freedom.

Naive but then perhaps not, as I now recall that you're a follower of The Kalergi Plan.

99% of the people there were European I should imagine, we are a European country.

Ha!.:D...

Also happy to be a European....European for the Europeans....... And when it comes to national politics, no outside interference , agreed?




The Guardian = Remain ...As is the Evening Standard, as is the MSM on the television belting out the 700,000 ..700,000....700,000!!!!....Nothing but organiser's estimates , they're lying and these are the people that want another referendum..:rolleyes:...

Okay, looking at the aerial shots I give you 40,000 - 50,000 max.. but I'm not going higher than that :)
 
Naive but then perhaps not, as I now recall that you're a follower of The Kalergi Plan.



Ha!.:D...

Also happy to be a European....European for the Europeans....... And when it comes to national politics, no outside interference , agreed?





The Guardian = Remain ...As is the Evening Standard, as is the MSM on the television belting out the 700,000 ..700,000....700,000!!!!....Nothing but organiser's estimates , they're lying and these are the people that want another referendum..:rolleyes:...

Okay, looking at the aerial shots I give you 40,000 - 50,000 max.. but I'm not going higher than that :)

Lol
 
The Guardian = Remain ...As is the Evening Standard, as is the MSM on the television belting out the 700,000 ..700,000....700,000!!!!....Nothing but organiser's estimates , they're lying and these are the people that want another referendum..:rolleyes:...

Okay, looking at the aerial shots I give you 40,000 - 50,000 max.. but I'm not going higher than that :)
How did you come up with your figure again?
 
Naive but then perhaps not, as I now recall that you're a follower of The Kalergi Plan.



Ha!.:D...

Also happy to be a European....European for the Europeans....... And when it comes to national politics, no outside interference , agreed?





The Guardian = Remain ...As is the Evening Standard, as is the MSM on the television belting out the 700,000 ..700,000....700,000!!!!....Nothing but organiser's estimates , they're lying and these are the people that want another referendum..:rolleyes:...

Okay, looking at the aerial shots I give you 40,000 - 50,000 max.. but I'm not going higher than that :)

Out of curiosity, what price would you pay for controlling immigration? How much poorer personally would you take as a trade off? How much poorer would you accept our public services becoming as a fair trade off?

Do you think being out of the EU would stop immigration, bearing in mind 50% of our immigration has been from outside the EU and has zilch to do with the EU? Do you have a preferance between EU immigrants and rest of the world immigrants?
 
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What happened to the Leave-promised easy negotiation with the EU? Where did our cards go? What happened to German car markers forcing Europe to agree to our terms? With respect, do we now know this not to be true?

Or...is there now a belief (read delusion) that it was the UKs negotiation that was weak, and a harder approach would have worked wonders with the EU? A hard Brexiteer Davies was in charge of getting a deal, but failed. What does that tell us? That Tory Brexiteers are incompetent? Or the Brexiteers promise of an easy EU deal was a falsehood/ lie/ scam?
 
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Out of curiosity, what price would you pay for controlling immigration? How much poorer personally would you take as a trade off? How much poorer would you accept our public services becoming as a fair trade off?

Do you think being out of the EU would stop immigration, bearing in mind 50% of our immigration has been from outside the EU and has zilch to do with the EU? Do you have a preferance between EU immigrants and rest of the world immigrants?

Economic migration is a massive ponzi scheme. Cash today for an unsustainable population tomorrow.

A migration policy without reference to a zero net population growth (or lower) is just irresponsible. The need for a quick profit for big business shouldn't be allowed to crap over everyone's future.

I would definitely prefer a non-racist immigration policy - i.e RoW and EU treated the same
 
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What happened to the Leave-promised easy negotiation with the EU? Where did our cards go? What happened to German car markers forcing Europe to agree to our terms? With respect, do we now know this not to be true?

Or...is there now a belief (read delusion) that it was the UKs negotiation that was weak, and a harder approach would have worked wonders with the EU? A hard Brexiteer Davies was in charge of getting a deal, but failed. What does that tell us? That Tory Brexiteers are incompetent? Or the Brexiteers promise of an easy EU deal was a falsehood/ lie/ scam?

May winning the 2016 leadership election and May calling the 2017 election are the two things that sunk what could have been a good deal.

The way it should have been done was to quickly sign up to TPP and NAFTA in summer 2016, then begun to negotiate with the EU on an FTA as confident third country. The whole withdrawal agreement thing has been a completely unnecessary humiliation.
 
The way it should have been done was to quickly sign up to TPP and NAFTA in summer 2016, then begun to negotiate with the EU on an FTA as confident third country. The whole withdrawal agreement thing has been a completely unnecessary humiliation.

To have done either of those things, we would have needed to leave the EU unilaterally. You can neither join nor negotiate extramural trade agreements while still a member state; the only legitimate way to leave is through the A50 protocol.

As a soi-disant third country without any kind of transition agreement, we'd have been into the nightmare scenario immediately: no flights, chaos at the ports, no right of citizenship for Brits abroad, decimated exports and so on.

If you find yourself saying things so mad and simplistic that even the ERG lot aren't saying them, it's probably time to rethink.
 
There's ways to bend not break the rules. The point was we needed to show some agency and strengthen our hand, rather than turning up in Brussels with a moping victim's mentality.
 
We turned up in Brussels with exactly the attitude you describe. Britannia waives the rules, everything can be haggled away, treaties and legal agreements don't matter. Other countries don't like it; that's one of the reasons why the negotiations are now so tricky, and why it's less likely that we can back into the EFTA/EEA or come up with frictionless inspection regimes between GB and NI. Showing a lack of respect for existing law means that others stop trusting you.
 
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