Politics, politics, politics

[Gutter Boy]

Remain brick the bed because they didn't know why they wanted to remain, there was nothing to communicate

The leavers were life leavers, had reasons, had worked a life time on why to leave, there was probably more to sell on saying leave to a generation. Leave and you will get this............ where as stay was, Stay and stay the same which for alot was not a prospect

One of the problems with the EU was that no one in Britain had any emotional connection to it. Western Europe had the war damage/guilt things to put behind them, Southern Europe wanted a clean break from their dictators. Eastern Europe wanted a counter-balance to Russia. Only North Europe (us and the Scandis) could really make a detached cost-benefit decision on it.

We also entered it at a moment of weakness - when the war damage and collapsing empire caught up with us. Therefore it has always felt a bit like a crutch, a restraint, or even a humiliation.

No one on Remain could make a positive case for it, because in no quarters has there ever been any love for it, just tolerance.

 

[the dza]

Turning that round, how the hell does any sane person get the conclusion that said it was going to give ALL 350 mill to the NHS. So no i do not know that as well as you do at all, maybe i thought more of the general public had enough brains to understand what was written before their own eyes, rather then make up fairy storys about what they thought it said.

If it mislead some into thinking that it had any other meaning then what it said well that is their foolish mistake and maybe, just maybe i gave to much credit to them having enough intelligence to fathom that out.

Err, maybe because of other images like this:

it wasn't just on a bus

and he was repeating it in April

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...labour-leader-uk-prime-minister-a7705026.html

 

[the dza]

Meanwhile:

https://www.theguardian.com/society...astating-impact-of-planned-nhs-cuts-in-london

Patients will be denied treatment, waiting times for operations will lengthen and A&E and maternity units may be shut under secret NHS plans to impose unprecedented cuts to health spending in London.

According to an internal NHS document seen by the Guardian, doctors in five London boroughs will have to spend less on drugs, fewer patients will be referred to hospital and support for people with severe health needs will be cut as part of the plan.

It outlines the “difficult choices” NHS bosses nationally are forcing the 10 hospital trusts in north-central London to make in the next few months in order to plug a £183.1m gap in their finances.

 

[Seedy Ron]

Sense, but some of the remainers have still got their teeth into the story that is was the bus poster that made folks vote for freedom from a bunch of control freaks and nothing else.

I doubt anyone thinks you all voted out because you thought there'd be 350m quid every week to give to the NHS, but there are clearly some people who did believe that line and voted in accordance, and in the end there wasn't that big a gap between in and out. So the lie worked nicely.

 

[parklane1]

The priorities comment supersedes the NHS part and is argued that the NHS comment would be an example of where money could be spent not as a fact but as an example

Err, maybe because of other images like this:

Folks will see what they want to see we both know that. Now if you asked did the Out side lead people up a false path then i can agree to a point, however so did the remain side with their doom and gloom about how the country would collapse If folks vote for out.

I talked about some folks lacking intelligence in a earlier post, but if anyone does not believe/accept that both sides of the coin tell untruths, speculation, scare storys then that just proves that there is one born every minute.

 

[parklane1]

I doubt anyone thinks you all voted out because you thought there'd be 350m quid every week to give to the NHS, but there are clearly some people who did believe that line and voted in accordance, and in the end there wasn't that big a gap between in and out. So the lie worked nicely.

Fair point, however i am sure there were just as many who voted remain because the so called experts were telling us at every chance that voting for out would bring disaster.

It works both ways and i am not naive enough to think that were not lies told by both arguments.

 

[Grays_1890]

Folks will see what they want to see we both know that. Now if you asked did the Out side lead people up a false path then i can agree to a point, however so did the remain side with their doom and gloom about how the country would collapse If folks vote for out.

To be fair thats true, never thought about that.

Also if in 2 years when we are out of the EU we have an extra 250m for the NHS as a result?? Then what?

Surely its a wait and see not a where is the 250m today?

 

[the dza]

Folks will see what they want to see we both know that. Now if you asked did the Out side lead people up a false path then i can agree to a point, however so did the remain side with their doom and gloom about how the country would collapse If folks vote for out.

I talked about some folks lacking intelligence in a earlier post, but if anyone does not believe/accept that both sides of the coin tell untruths, speculation, scare storys then that just proves that there is one born every minute.

I'm not so rabidly pro leave/remain that I can't see lies told by both sides (Osbornes 'Emergency Budget' comes to mind). But right there, you have an image, clear as day, clearer than the bus one, that they said "Let's give our NHS the £350million the EU takes every week." Those exact words -- an outright lie and some people believed it. I think it's fair enough to say that, no agendas required.

 

[parklane1]

To be fair thats true, never thought about that.

Also if in 2 years when we are out of the EU we have an extra 250m for the NHS as a result?? Then what?

Surely its a wait and see not a where is the 250m today?

That is just that, i doubt most folks who voted on both sides have any real clue on where we will end up. But that does not stop some who voted remain from chanting the doom and gloom chant.

I think its pretty obvious that i voted to come out and i did so ( like millions of other) because we wanted change from the mess that we were in. Now i do not have a crystal ball ( like some of those who voted remain have) so i can not be sure if we will be better off or not. Personally i am fine and will be but there are millions of the population who fell that they are being brick on ( from a very high point) and could see nothing getting any better.

 

[parklane1]

I'm not so rabidly pro leave/remain that I can't see lies told by both sides (Osbornes 'Emergency Budget' comes to mind). But right there, you have an image, clear as day, clearer than the bus one, that they said "Let's give our NHS the £350million the EU takes every week." Those exact words -- an outright lie and some people believed it. I think it's fair enough to say that, no agendas required.

We are going round in circles with/over that bloody bus poster, taco post and we are not going to agree. All i can say is that i know no one who thought that poster meant what you are suggesting but maybe you have. As i say we are going round in circles so we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Grays_1890]

I'm not so rabidly pro leave/remain that I can't see lies told by both sides (Osbornes 'Emergency Budget' comes to mind). But right there, you have an image, clear as day, clearer than the bus one, that they said "Let's give our NHS the £350million the EU takes every week." Those exact words -- an outright lie and some people believed it. I think it's fair enough to say that, no agendas required.

In 3 and a half year at the end of our first year of non membership if we have an extra 350m in the NHS coffers a week then the poster will be proven right, if not it will be proven wrong. I am happy to pick this up when we are out the EU and see where we are before a judgements made.

 

[the dza]

In 3 and a half year at the end of our first year of non membership if we have an extra 250m in the NHS coffers then the poster will be proven right, if not it will be proven wrong. I am happy to pick this up when we are out the EU and see where we are before a judgements made.

Well as long as that applies to others who are "doom and gloom merchants" who believe we will be worse off after leaving the EU. Apparently, things not going wrong before leaving is proof the "doom merchants" are wrong, but promises being backtracked on we just have to "wait and see" what happens when we've left. It almost sounds agenda driven, perish the thought.

 

[Robspur12]

One of the problems with the EU was that no one in Britain had any emotional connection to it. Western Europe had the war damage/guilt things to put behind them, Southern Europe wanted a clean break from their dictators. Eastern Europe wanted a counter-balance to Russia. Only North Europe (us and the Scandis) could really make a detached cost-benefit decision on it.

We also entered it at a moment of weakness - when the war damage and collapsing empire caught up with us. Therefore it has always felt a bit like a crutch, a restraint, or even a humiliation.

No one on Remain could make a positive case for it, because in no quarters has there ever been any love for it, just tolerance.

I enjoy reading your posts on this thread GB but I am sure you sometimes write things for effect. I am British but I also love being part of a wider Europe, a countervailant force to America, China and the USSR. I feel that being part of Europe has enriched our culture through experiencing the different cuisines, languages and people. At the same time diluting some of the Jingoistic nonsense that we see from many Brits abroad.

It has been good to work with our European partners, without barriers on security, food safety, research and trade. It is not perfect but I am genuinely sad that we have turned our backs on it. I believe it is a decision we will regret ultimately especially as it will entrench our small island mentality.

You just have to look at the major players out side our country who are waxing lyrical about Brexit; namely Putin and Trump, to see the direction we are going.

 

[Parklaner81]

I'm not so rabidly pro leave/remain that I can't see lies told by both sides (Osbornes 'Emergency Budget' comes to mind). But right there, you have an image, clear as day, clearer than the bus one, that they said "Let's give our NHS the £350million the EU takes every week." Those exact words -- an outright lie and some people believed it. I think it's fair enough to say that, no agendas required.

It wasn't a lie though. It was a suggestion. An illustration of possibilities.

Vote Leave didn't represent the government - they were never in any position to make guarantees about what anything would be spent on. This surely is fairly basic stuff?

 

[the dza]

It wasn't a lie though. It was a suggestion. An illustration of possibilities.

Vote Leave didn't represent the government - they were never in any position to make guarantees about what anything would be spent on. This surely is fairly basic stuff?

Good point. It's not like any members of the cabinet headed the Vote Leave campaign.

 

[Parklaner81]

Good point. It's not like any members of the cabinet headed the Vote Leave campaign.

So? The Prime Minister headed Remain. Were both sides making binding promises on behalf of the government then?

 

[the dza]

So? The Prime Minister headed Remain. Were both sides making binding promises on behalf of the government then?

Yeah, and Gove and Johnson would have known that if 'Leave' won then Cameron was gone.

Everything in politics is a suggestion until you gain power. So we shouldn't expect manifesto commitments to be honoured because they are only "suggestions" at the time of writing? People vote and think "they said that, so I'll vote for that."

 

[Robspur12]

So? The Prime Minister headed Remain. Were both sides making binding promises on behalf of the government then?

No you're right . But it reminds me of a discussion from earlier in this thread of peripheral parties promising the earth prior to elections because they know they won't get elected and have to make good on their promises.

Vote Leave made some outlandish claims during their campaign because I genuinely don't believe many of them thought they would win. When they did they back tracked quickly on their pre referendum promises.

It's true neither Leave nor Remain ran campaigns that would win awards for political integrity. But it would seem,at this point, the warnings of the remain have much more veracity than the promises of Leave. Of course that could change but probably not soon.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

To be fair thats true, never thought about that.

Also if in 2 years when we are out of the EU we have an extra 250m for the NHS as a result?? Then what?

Surely its a wait and see not a where is the 250m today?

The last thing the NHS needs is more money, it will go to consultants and pension increases. Not equipment of drugs or extra nurses. The NHS needs to modernise, I say that as someone who is sick and has gone private to get proper care.

 

[Parklaner81]

Yeah, and Gove and Johnson would have known that if 'Leave' won then Cameron was gone.

Everything in politics is a suggestion until you gain power. So we shouldn't expect manifesto commitments to be honoured because they are only "suggestions" at the time of writing? People vote and think "they said that, so I'll vote for that."

This isn't directly comparable to manifestos written for a general election, which again is fairly obvious.

The point is, that I interpreted the offending bus/poster/whatever as the illustration that it always was, rather than literally. As I'm sure most people did, including most of those who have since turned it into a convenient point of complaint to aid in their efforts to rail against the referendum result (not referring to you in that sense by the way).