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Politics, politics, politics

scaramanga said:
So the way to achieve what you want is to behave irrationally and illegally and then just wait for the good and honest to give you what you want?

I think that's a bad message to send to society in general and a particularly bad one to send to terrorists.
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I'm surprised you see things in such a one dimensional way. The "the good and honest" depends where you stand in the argument.
 
I think the 80% of London will be worried that their buildings are up to grade, when you think about it this is first bad fire in some time so we have probably been vey lucky to avoid things before.

Crazy old city
 
StephenH said:
I'm surprised you see things in such a one dimensional way. The "the good and honest" depends where you stand in the argument.
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For all the bad that our government is and has been, they're not terrorists in suits.

They do things our way, there's peace. We do things their way and it's essentially war.
 
the dza said:
It's the fault of elected politicians "accommodating the irrational" by funding and creating terrorist groups (Al Qaeda in the 80s, trained and armed by USA); "accommodating the irrational" by being allied with states that propagate, fund and spread terrorist ideology for the sake of oil and arms deals (Britain and the US with Saudi Arabia, whose Wahhabist ideology is the basis of the beliefs of Isis and Al Qaeda); "accommodating the irrational" with de-regulation of the financial sector and a wilful blindness to the practices that lead to the financial crash of 2008. We can go on and on...

That's why the world is in a state, it's the people with power doing the bidding of those who finance them rather than those who elect them.
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That's using them for our means - very different from just agreeing to what they want because they might get a bit bomby if we don't.
 
galeforce said:
I completely agree

but there is nothing rational, or indeed binding, about swearing allegiance to anything, a person, a leather bound fairy story or a flag

perhaps we could let them take the seats without the pomp and circumstance
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I agree.

But just like my bacon test for muslims, it shows that being a contributing part of society is more important to them than their little magic wish fairy in the sky.
 
the dza said:
It's the fault of elected politicians "accommodating the irrational" by funding and creating terrorist groups (Al Qaeda in the 80s, trained and armed by USA)
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Isnt that called having allies though? If they then turn round and become utter bast4ards about it thats not our fault. The CIA helped them to defeat the Russians. We helped the French against the Nazi's, the French didnt return that help with bombs. Hardly the fault of the CIA that they helped them and it backfired, could have easily worked for good.
 
scaramanga said:
For all the bad that our government is and has been, they're not terrorists in suits.

They do things our way, there's peace. We do things their way and it's essentially war.
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Not having a go at this or any government.
But in matters like Northern Ireland and Israeli settlements. Right and wrong are sadly counterproductive.
 
parklane1 said:
Are we talking about the same Cameron who took his party into a general election against a Labour party ( who had shot its bolt, lead by a leader ( Brown) who in most peoples eyes was the worst leader of any party for years and yet failed to get a majority vote? Who if Glegg had not came along and saved his arse would have been replaced as leader of the Torys by another.
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The same Cameron that pulled off a victory in 2015 against all odds, albeit, the wrong Miliband brother as his opposition certainly helped the cause.

Don't forget he kept up his manifesto promise of offering a referendum to the people. He also increased Inheritance threshold, which was a sensible move considering the high prices in London meant the current status quo was no longer appropriate, thus families in London were not unfairly penalised.

He was far more compassionate Conservative Prime Minister than most and a Liberal one at that too.
 
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scaramanga said:
That's using them for our means - very different from just agreeing to what they want because they might get a bit bomby if we don't.
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"Might get a bit bomby" -- they have been getting very "bomby." Spending their money, funding various mosques to push their ideology and radicalise young muslim men all over the globe, or more directly funding terrorist groups, or offering to cover the cost if the US would go all-in for regime change in Syria. They are the number one country making our streets less safe with regard to Islamic Terrorism and in return for that, we sell them billions of pounds worth of arms.

Grays_1890 said:
Isnt that called having allies though? If they then turn round and become utter bast4ards about it thats not our fault. The CIA helped them to defeat the Russians. We helped the French against the Nazi's, the French didnt return that help with bombs. Hardly the fault of the CIA that they helped them and it backfired, could have easily worked for good.
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France is an ally and neighbouring country, we have a dog in that fight if they come under attack. The CIA didn't arm and train the mujahideen because Afghanistan was an ally or they gave a brick about the country -- it was a short-term geo-political move against the Soviets that had devastating long-term consequences and they learnt nothing from it to this day.
 
the dza said:
France is an ally and neighbouring country, we have a dog in that fight if they come under attack. The CIA didn't arm and train the mujahideen because Afghanistan was an ally or they gave a brick about the country -- it was a short-term geo-political move against the Soviets that had devastating long-term consequences and they learnt nothing from it to this day.
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The reason the alliance backfired was due to how close the US were to Saudi though, and then an eventual partnership with the leader than joined from Egypt, the extreme guy who was pushed out there who eventually joined Al Queda, you can't account for these things when making alliances
 
Grays_1890 said:
The reason the alliance backfired was due to how close the US were to Saudi though, and then an eventual partnership with the leader than joined from Egypt, the extreme guy who was pushed out there who eventually joined Al Queda, you can't account for these things when making alliances
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You can't account for it if CIA meddling had never backfired for them before, or they had never got involved in proxy wars against the Soviets/communism that went terribly wrong. But they had and they continued to do the same things anyway. And they push to keep doing similar things to this very day.

If you arm and train a group of religious fanatics because they happen to be fighting your enemy that day, how can you be surprised when they take issue with your presence in 'The Holy Land' in the future? This is nowhere near the same thing as us helping France in WW2.
 
spitshine said:
The same Cameron that pulled off a victory in 2015 against all odds, albeit, the wrong Miliband brother as his opposition certainly helped the cause.

Don't forget he kept up his manifesto promise of offering a referendum to the people. He also increased Inheritance threshold, which was a sensible move considering the high prices in London meant the current status quo was no longer appropriate, thus families in London were not unfairly penalised.

He was far more compassionate Conservative Prime Minister than most and a Liberal one at that too.
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Emancipation of homosexuals (gay marriage) was a big deal too. Not quite Wilberforce, but along those lines. And that was a personal crusade against the majority of his own party.
 
We should wait until the investigation is completed but it does seem strange that if the fire service lack the equipment to put out the fire on the higher floors that no fire suppression system was not installed at least in those floors. Especially given that that there was only one staircase. Compartmentalising flats is all well and good but people open doors and windows which enables fire spread.
 
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Do we know that original contractor had quoted for a superior product? If no it isn't relevant

Are we suggesting the builders purposely sourced flammable materials?
 
Theory and hate and press fanning the flames of anger is doing nothing for the families, they are makign it worse.

And that kn0b lily allen piping up she can do one, no one is hiding how many are dead, we just don't know yet you fool.

Justice will be done, let it take the course, at the minute its all speculations that causes more problems and hurt.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Do we know that original contractor had quoted for a superior product? If no it isn't relevant

Are we suggesting the builders purposely sourced flammable materials?
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from what I've seen of budget negotiations i'm sure it didn't come down to saving £2 a panel, this would have been part of a much wider cost reduction exercise and this was merely the line the tragedy has been traced too

it's never a single failing that causes these disasters, the press do a disservice to the complexities with their hot takes
 
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