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Politics, politics, politics

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But still, that manifesto is simply too long. If Brexit taught us anything, it's that the public don't care about costed proposals, detailed policy plans, or anything that requires them to think for more than ten seconds.

Who cares how they're paid for? The public didn't care when the Brexit campaign was driving that ludicrous '350m for the NHS' bus around. They didn't care when every economic expert worth his salt was warning about the long-term effects of Brexit. So why would they care now about how Labour pays for something?

Shorten it to ten key, easily remembered points, and keep repeating them, hard and heavy. Forget costing (although, iirc, Labour are getting their manifesto costed by an independent third-party outfit of some sort, which will help with swaying the few people who take public finances seriously). Hit the Tories hard on education and the NHS, the key points May doesn't really have answers for. Commit to a clean, thorough Brexit, to take away May's key talking point.

Most importantly, *brand* yourself - *brand* like never before. 'Strong and Stable' is what the Tories are going with - something similarly vacuous and snappy needs to be put down on the Labour side as well. And maybe keep Jezza from talking about defense and foreign policy too much - get some Labour-affiliated retired officers and ex Foreign Office blokes to more eloquently skip around the 'Hamas' and 'nuclear disarmament' outbursts Corbyn has from time to time.

*Brand*, and win (or at least, avoid losing horribly). The public doesn't care about policies or how they're paid for - they only care about branding and how easily they're convinced by flashy ads and simple talking points. Go with that.
If Labour are looking for an election win, taxing and spending isn't the answer. Ed "The Wrong" Miliband tried that and the public told him to fudge off.
 
Are they genuinely stupid enough to not realise that ending HMRC "sweetheart" deals will reduce the tax take?

Why do they think HMRC are doing deals? Because they have a soft spot for these companies? Because they simply feel like it? They do these deals because those companies have more and better lawyers and accountants than the HMRC could ever have and it's all we will get.

It sounds nice. I agree, the practicalities of the world we live in (with unprecedented mobility of capital and relatively powerless domestic tax enforcement mechanisms) mean that some measure of towing and scraping is necessary until a worldwide tax enforcement regime of some sort is implemented (if it ever is).

But it sounds nice. '350m for the NHS' nice. What it does it matter how it will be implemented? What did it matter that Trump was literally proposing to kill off his own prospective voters by ending their subsidised healthcare? He sounded nice, what he said sounded nice and simple.

People like nice and simple. If the branding is good enough, they will also like tax-and-spend, especially if it's based on taxing people richer than themselves. The days of detailed policy disagreements and reasoned voting are gone.

The question is only if Jezza can get the branding he needs. I don't think he will, because all the tabloids will murder him, but if he could, then he could definitely use a shortened version of that manifesto to win - or at least, prevent a crushing defeat.
 
It sounds nice. I agree, the practicalities of the world we live in (with unprecedented mobility of capital and relatively powerless domestic tax enforcement mechanisms) mean that some measure of towing and scraping is necessary until a worldwide tax enforcement regime of some sort is implemented (if it ever is).

But it sounds nice. '350m for the NHS' nice. What it does it matter how it will be implemented? What did it matter that Trump was literally proposing to kill off his own prospective voters by ending their subsidised healthcare? He sounded nice, what he said sounded nice and simple.

People like nice and simple. If the branding is good enough, they will also like tax-and-spend, especially if it's based on taxing people richer than themselves. The days of detailed policy disagreements and reasoned voting are gone.

The question is only if Jezza can get the branding he needs. I don't think he will, because all the tabloids will murder him, but if he could, then he could definitely use a shortened version of that manifesto to win - or at least, prevent a crushing defeat.
It's too easily countered though.

Cameron won the last election on two simple points:

  1. Spending is irresponsible
  2. Labour want to spend
If May has the sense to push that line (and I'm not convinced she does) then it's game over for Corbyn because he can't run on ant platform that doesn't involve massive spending.
 
It's too easily countered though.

Cameron won the last election on two simple points:

  1. Spending is irresponsible
  2. Labour want to spend
If May has the sense to push that line (and I'm not convinced she does) then it's game over for Corbyn because he can't run on ant platform that doesn't involve massive spending.

Well, that's where the branding comes in. The economic case for Brexit was shaky in the eyes of a large majority of consulted experts, but pointing out the irresponsibility of risking economic damage to pursue excessively vague notions of sovereignty held no water with 52% of the voters that took part in the referendum. Because the misty-eyed notions of sovereignty and Britain punching above its weight on the world stage, free from Brussels and their meddling, free from Eastern European immigrants and their lack of vowels, free from obligations and their concurrent commitments....those notions held weight. Because they were sold well. Their logical premises were often (not always, but often) faulty, but they were sold expertly well.

I don't think Corbyn will stand a chance if he fights a simple one-two approach like the one you've outlined on the premise of refuting the argument, because truth be told he can't - Labour intend to spend, no doubt about it. Which is why he needs to pivot around those accusations to other key buzzwords.

Spending is irresponsible, so Labour want to spend, comes the accusation. Fine. Ignore it, downplay it, lie about it in a way that makes it lose visibility, *drive it off screens*. Instead, pivot around and single-mindedly, relentlessly attack the Tories on the NHS (for example). Lay it on thick - the Tories want to introduce American-style privatization, they want to strip you of the right to free healthcare your parents and grand-parents enjoyed, they want to let you collapse and die in the your cities, towns and villages while wealthy, drunken toffs sneeringly trample you with their horses on the way to their latest fox hunt.

Labour want to keep the NHS free at the point of use always and forever - not only that, they want to fund it, make it better than ever, hire more nurses, more doctors, shorten waiting times, improve response times, improve social care services, and give back to Britain's people what the Tories have been working hard to take away and give to the ultra-rich, to the 1%.

This approach chimes with what the public largely think about the NHS - the BSA survey for 2016 revealed that roughly 63% of people were still satisfied with the NHS overall, with one of the biggest reasons being its status as free at the point of use, and with one of their biggest concerns (in the top three) actually being the lack of funding it was getting. No one wants more privatization, even if it might help improve service delivery, if it impinges on the former - so lie, and lay it on thick. The NHS is being starved - the Tories are starving it so they can sell it off to their rich pals, and then they have the cheek to blame Labour for wanting to reverse that?!? The cads.

Done. Then move on to education, another weak area for May.

Use the Brexit strategy - obfuscate, deride, and then sensationalize everything you can possibly sensationalize while making your own message snappy, memorable and connected to a vague ideal that people want to hold. Brand like you've never branded before. Believe what you say, say it loud, and keep saying it regardless of whether people point out that you're wrong or ill-founded. Drown them out.

The problem with Ed Miliband is that he didn't lay it on thick enough - to a large extent, he was still hampered by his status as a relative insider, his privileged socio-economic background, his status as a New Labour man (even though he was further left than many of his peers), his reliance on policy details as opposed to broad-strokes rhetoric and his reluctance to go all in like, say, Farage did when he decided to influence the public in the build-up to Brexit. So Cameron was able to corner him and beat him using the fairly solid approach of calling Labour irresponsible at a time when the relatively moderate coalition government had tempered people's fears about the Conservatives undoing all the advances New Labour had made over the previous decade in their rush to fight the deficit.

Now, make no mistake, Corbyn faces a massively uphill battle to do even as well as Ed did - there is too much against him, and too much by way of momentum for May. But if he wants to have a chance of succeeding, he needs to learn from Brexit. Corner May on Brexit itself - insist you're going to make a clean break with no unnecessary compromises, much like May. Commit to Brexit, 100%. Then move on to reversing the Tories' (well-thought out) attempts to seize a lot of Labour's ideological space by reverting to a form of One-Nation Toryism - outflank them and hit them in areas where the public still harbor an instinctual distrust of the Tories (education, the NHS and so on) while avoiding your own weaknesses like the f*cking plague (foreign policy, the defense of the realm and so on). Shout loud, and shout longer.
 
I like Corbyn i really do but even someone with limited education like me can see that is not affordable.

Also dislike the policy on grammar schools and inheritance tax, i paid tax all my life my money should be left to who I want.

Still no mention from any of the parties on stem cell research.
 
The things to spend on are R&D and infrastructure, because they propagate even more wealth

Most other things are just tinkling it against a wall, or cause inflation which more than negates the original interventions.
 
I like Corbyn i really do but even someone with limited education like me can see that is not affordable.

Also dislike the policy on grammar schools and inheritance tax, i paid tax all my life my money should be left to who I want.

Still no mention from any of the parties on stem cell research.

Inheritance tax is a real issue with anyone above about 50, which is the majority of those that vote.

It's a toxic policy, and was for Labour all through the 70s and 80s

Grammars are also popular with the aspirational lower middle classes (the key swing voters), because they see them as fairer than the current selection by house price system.

Mind you, May has been talking about fox hunting, which is completely barmy in this century.
 
That's definitely a part of it.

But at the same time I think we have to look at societal and cultural factors. There have been changes that I think contribute to the current increase. Whereas some factors are perhaps protective against what was probably more prevalent in the past.

The pressure on young people today is quite different to what it was even 10-15 years ago and very different to what it was longer ago. I'm not sure we can say that there's more pressure quantitatively speaking, but the pressure is qualitatively different imo.



Compared to when exactly? The 20th century saw two world wars, the great depression, Spanish flu and other illnesses and the threat of immediate nuclear annihilation during the cold war.

Compared to the deliberate policy of undermining the self confidence of the working classes, so as to bring on a supine work force that is reluctant to stand up for it's democratic rights. What do you think happened to the post War consensus? The neo-liberal Tories tore it up, because it suits their selfish economic agenda. We live in an age of constant work place reviews, often nothing more than hoop jumping exercises, key performance indicators, dilution of the social safety net and policy which divides and alienates one worker from another. An anxious worker is a docile worker This cancer is all pervasive.
 
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Inheritance tax is a real issue with anyone above about 50, which is the majority of those that vote.

It's a toxic policy, and was for Labour all through the 70s and 80s

Grammars are also popular with the aspirational lower middle classes (the key swing voters), because they see them as fairer than the current selection by house price system.

Mind you, May has been talking about fox hunting, which is completely barmy in this century.

I find myself agreeing with so much of what you write on politics, if only you could admit that Sherwood is a thoroughly nice chap and master tactician.

Really do not understand May and fox hunting, if Foxes are a problem and I am quite rural and have them in my garden then it should be down to a licenced professional to kill them in a human manner.

Heard an opposition MP say we should not have to put your children through the 11plus, he is absolutely right and he does not have to if he does not want to, but the are enough parents out there who want this and Governments should not be telling us how to raise our children(they can still weigh dave and sharons fat little kid and tell them he is a porker) but parents who are trying to improve their childrens lives should be left alone.
 
Compared to the deliberate policy of undermining the self confidence of the working classes, so as to bring on a supine work force that is reluctant to stand up for it's democratic rights.
Well done, you've discovered the secret plan. Your prize is a tinfoil hat and the ridicule of anyone within earshot of your opinion.

What do you think happened to the post War consensus? The neo-liberal Tories tore it up, because it suits their selfish economic agenda.
What happened was the Conservatives stopped being economically illiterate and saved this country from the disaster it was headed for.

We live in an age of constant work place reviews, often nothing more than hoop jumping exercises, key performance indicators,
How would you prefer your performance to be assessed? Gut instinct? Picking numbers from a hat?

dilution of the social safety net and policy which divides and alienates one worker from another. An anxious worker is a docile worker This cancer is all pervasive.
A docile worker is a sacked worker (except in unionised workplaces).
 
Well done, you've discovered the secret plan. Your prize is a tinfoil hat and the ridicule of anyone within earshot of your opinion.


What happened was the Conservatives stopped being economically illiterate and saved this country from the disaster it was headed for.


How would you prefer your performance to be assessed? Gut instinct? Picking numbers from a hat?


A docile worker is a sacked worker (except in unionised workplaces).

Every one of those facile comments proved my point. BTW, there is nothing 'secret' about it. It has always been the agenda of the right wing parties. Where unions attempt solidarity between workers, the bosses seek alienation. One only needs to look at the collapse of on going full time employment, now its tending towards casualization, which in itself creates all sorts of anxiety. Well done, Scara, the gift that keeps on giving.
 
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Every one of those facile comments proved my point. BTW, there is nothing 'secret' about it. It has always been the agenda of the right wing parties. Where unions attempt solidarity between workers, the bosses seek alienation. One only needs to look at the collapse of on going full time employment, now its tending towards casualization, which in itself creates all sorts of anxiety. Well done, Scara, the gift that keeps on giving.
I'm not sure what kind of world you.live in where your thought processes allow you to come to that conclusion.

The decrease in full time employment is neither intended to alienate staff or cause anxiety, its intended to increase flexibility and reduce costs.

In almost every situation, the obvious answer is the correct one.
 
I'm not sure what kind of world you.live in where your thought processes allow you to come to that conclusion.

The decrease in full time employment is neither intended to alienate staff or cause anxiety, its intended to increase flexibility and reduce costs.

In almost every situation, the obvious answer is the correct one.

The only people not feeling stress by the increasing casualization of work are the bosses. Yep, it must feel great sitting around waiting for that call to confirm that your boss has granted you a couple of shifts. Oh and to be "ever so 'umble" in your best Uriah Heep voice for this great privilege. I know that this is your economic nirvana Scara, but for most people trying to eke out a living, this causes nothing but anxiety and stress. Clearly not knowing where your next pay cheque is coming from, would not unduly concern you, but it does many others.
 
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But still, that manifesto is simply too long. If Brexit taught us anything, it's that the public don't care about costed proposals, detailed policy plans, or anything that requires them to think for more than ten seconds.

Who cares how they're paid for? The public didn't care when the Brexit campaign was driving that ludicrous '350m for the NHS' bus around. They didn't care when every economic expert worth his salt was warning about the long-term effects of Brexit. So why would they care now about how Labour pays for something?

Shorten it to ten key, easily remembered points, and keep repeating them, hard and heavy. Forget costing (although, iirc, Labour are getting their manifesto costed by an independent third-party outfit of some sort, which will help with swaying the few people who take public finances seriously). Hit the Tories hard on education and the NHS, the key points May doesn't really have answers for. Commit to a clean, thorough Brexit, to take away May's key talking point.

Most importantly, *brand* yourself - *brand* like never before. 'Strong and Stable' is what the Tories are going with - something similarly vacuous and snappy needs to be put down on the Labour side as well. And maybe keep Jezza from talking about defense and foreign policy too much - get some Labour-affiliated retired officers and ex Foreign Office blokes to more eloquently skip around the 'Hamas' and 'nuclear disarmament' outbursts Corbyn has from time to time.

*Brand*, and win (or at least, avoid losing horribly). The public doesn't care about policies or how they're paid for - they only care about branding and how easily they're convinced by flashy ads and simple talking points. Go with that.


Ha, ha the Tory mantra. How come they never seek to explain how we will pay for all the top end and corporate tax cuts for their spiv mates? Come on Scara, where is the Tory accountability for that?
 
Are they genuinely stupid enough to not realise that ending HMRC "sweetheart" deals will reduce the tax take?

Why do they think HMRC are doing deals? Because they have a soft spot for these companies? Because they simply feel like it? They do these deals because those companies have more and better lawyers and accountants than the HMRC could ever have and it's all we will get.


Do you really expect people to believe this tripe? It's a pity you don't have such low expectations when it comes to the government chasing after unions. One set of standards for one and another, lower set for others. This is Tory selective morality. Look at Trump, he has turned it into an art form.


Typically the Tories target so called 'scroungers' and attempt to create an imagery that they're everywhere, they seek to divide people. However, they are mute when it comes to their shonky business mates evading tax, setting up shelf companies and ripping off workers. Yep, the silence is deafening then, the fudging hypocrites.


I agree with the above. If I was Corbyn I'd do what the lying Tories do. and play the fear card. I'd say, that they had a plan to privatise the NHS for a start. Plausible of course because we know the fascist wing of the Tories want to do just that. Go for broke and fight fire with fire I say and fudge the moral high ground.
 
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It's too easily countered though.

Cameron won the last election on two simple points:

  1. Spending is irresponsible
  2. Labour want to spend
If May has the sense to push that line (and I'm not convinced she does) then it's game over for Corbyn because he can't run on ant platform that doesn't involve massive spending.


Tories like to cut tax for their fat cat mates
To pay for the above tax cuts, they want to cut the NHS and other services you depend on.
The Tories have made a choice, but they didn't choose you!
 
The only people not feeling stress by the increasing casualization of work are the bosses. Yep, it must feel great sitting around waiting for that call to confirm that your boss has granted you a couple of shifts. Oh and to be "ever so 'umble" in your best Uriah Heep voice for this great privilege. I know that this is your economic nirvana Scara, but for most people trying to eke out a living, this causes nothing but anxiety and stress. Clearly not knowing where your next pay cheque is coming from, would not unduly concern you, but it does many others.
The answer, again, is simple.

Either be better than the rest and guarantee the work or get another job. If you don't like the terms offered by your employer, go get another job with terms you like.
 
The answer, again, is simple.

Either be better than the rest and guarantee the work or get another job. If you don't like the terms offered by your employer, go get another job with terms you like.
Casualization is spreading everywhere like a great big cancer in the work place. Gee you are full of the simplistic solutions.
 
Ha, ha the Tory mantra. How come they never seek to explain how we will pay for all the top end and corporate tax cuts for their spiv mates? Come on Scara, where is the Tory accountability for that?
Simple, by spending less. That's what governments are supposed to aim for.
 
Do you really expect people to believe this tripe? It's a pity you don't have such low expectations when it comes to the government chasing after unions. One set of standards for one and another, lower set for others. This is Tory selective morality. Look at Trump, he has turned it into an art form.


Typically the Tories target so called 'scroungers' and attempt to create an imagery that they're everywhere, they seek to divide people. However, they are mute when it comes to their shonky business mates evading tax, setting up shelf companies and ripping off workers. Yep, the silence is deafening then, the fudging hypocrites.


I agree with the above. If I was Corbyn I'd do what the lying Tories do. and play the fear card. I'd say, that they had a plan to privatise the NHS for a start. Plausible of course because we know the fascist wing of the Tories want to do just that. Go for broke and fight fire with fire I say and fudge the moral high ground.
Are you saying that the government have better lawyers and accountants than large corporates?

Because I can tell you from direct experience that they can't even come close.
 
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