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Politics, politics, politics

I'm not sure 5 star are that bad as our media portray them to be. And they are not as anti-Europe as our media portray them either. They said they would like a referendum to quit the Euro. Not Europe. And that was said some time ago, and not followed up. Whether this is still their policy is unclear. The guy who leads the party is a comedian, who plays the piano etc on rallies :)

I think it all shows, that people need politics to be reinvented. One way or another. Everything in life is rebranded, refreshed, changing and mainstream politics has been behind the curve. The established parties haven't reinvented themselves, so people are voting for something different.
 
Gutter Boy said:
A good day alround because Five Star won in Italy, who for me appear to be quite noble and progressive radicals. I need to ask my Italian friends more about them, but their approach and beliefs reminds me a bit of the Anabaptists, who I've always been interested in.
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Could really do with the € taking a dive over the next few days too. I want to by the wife a watch for Christmas and a weak € would make quite a difference.
 
Gutter Boy said:
I quite like the Irish model as a future solution. People elected in quotas by their professions (10 doctors voted by the BMA, 10 lawyers by the Law Society, 10 academics by UUK etc). That way it's more detached from party/professional politics, but also can't claim primacy over the HoC as they won't be directly elected.

Either that or a Nordic Council model, where the HoC becomes just an English Parliament and the HoL brings the 4 countries together with responsibility for common areas like defence and foreign policy
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If you do that, the doctors and academics will have vested interests.

You would have to find a few entirely private sector professions or else you'd have budgets go out of control.
 
SpurMeUp said:
I'm not sure 5 star are that bad as our media portray them to be. And they are not as anti-Europe as our media portray them either. They said they would like a referendum to quit the Euro. Not Europe. And that was said some time ago, and not followed up. Whether this is still their policy is unclear. The guy who leads the party is a comedian, who plays the piano etc on rallies :)

I think it all shows, that people need politics to be reinvented. One way or another. Everything in life is rebranded, refreshed, changing and mainstream politics has been behind the curve. The established parties haven't reinvented themselves, so people are voting for something different.
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IMO it is a reaction to the immigrant crisis in Italy. They feel they are bearing the brunt of non EU immigration and the rest of Europe are not taking their fair share. In all these so called "anti-establishment" votes immigration has played a big part. @thfcsteff makes a good point in his early post about tribalism, so does @milo with regard to the crash of 2008 sowing the seeds for the rise of populist right wing politics. The glimmer in all this was yesterday's rejection by the Austrians of the Far right, suggesting there is still not an appetite for them- not yet anyway. The Centre Left must not fail though in Austria like Hollande has in France because the far right will be waiting for another opportunity.
 
SpurMeUp said:
I'm not sure 5 star are that bad as our media portray them to be. And they are not as anti-Europe as our media portray them either. They said they would like a referendum to quit the Euro. Not Europe. And that was said some time ago, and not followed up. Whether this is still their policy is unclear. The guy who leads the party is a comedian, who plays the piano etc on rallies :)

I think it all shows, that people need politics to be reinvented. One way or another. Everything in life is rebranded, refreshed, changing and mainstream politics has been behind the curve. The established parties haven't reinvented themselves, so people are voting for something different.
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5 Star seem to be:

- Socially liberal
- Economically degrowth (see: http://theconversation.com/life-in-a-degrowth-economy-and-why-you-might-actually-enjoy-it-32224)
- Anti EU (or at least anti-Eurozone)
- Anti careerist politicians

I inherently distrust parties based on charismatic leadership, but it looks like Grillo has taken a step back and they do have a broader base/more substance. I've long been a fan of the Luther Blissett Project/Wu Ming Italian progressive radicals. They don't support 5 Star, but it's about the nearest to a practical application of their ideas I've come across.

On that then I'd absolutely vote for a British version of them over any of our options.
 
scaramanga said:
If you do that, the doctors and academics will have vested interests.

You would have to find a few entirely private sector professions or else you'd have budgets go out of control.
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The idea is that it would be broadly representative of the working population. So you'd also have 16 private sector middle managers (elected from amongst themselves), 11 call centre workers, 5 janitors, 1 train station pigeon shouter etc.
 
Robspur12 said:
IMO it is a reaction to the immigrant crisis in Italy. They feel they are bearing the brunt of non EU immigration and the rest of Europe are not taking their fair share. In all these so called "anti-establishment" votes immigration has played a big part. @thfcsteff makes a good point in his early post about tribalism, so does @milo with regard to the crash of 2008 sowing the seeds for the rise of populist right wing politics. The glimmer in all this was yesterday's rejection by the Austrians of the Far right, suggesting there is still not an appetite for them- not yet anyway. The Centre Left must not fail though in Austria like Hollande has in France because the far right will be waiting for another opportunity.
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I can't pretend to follow Italian politics closely but my understanding is that immigration and Europe did not feature particularly in the referendum debate. Most reports that I have read have said that it was dominated by the unpopularity of the government and Renzi.
 
milo said:
I can't pretend to follow Italian politics closely but my understanding is that immigration and Europe did not feature particularly in the referendum debate. Most reports that I have read have said that it was dominated by the unpopularity of the government and Renzi.
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The referendum was of course, on the face of it, about constitutional change, but talking to an Italian friend of mine before the referendum, one of the reasons he gave for the disillusion with Renzi and his government was the immigrant crisis in Italy and the way the EU have handled it. Renzi is seen as the face of the EU in Italian Politics with Brussels supporting his position in the referendum. Of course Bankers and the banking crisis is also part of it. So I should have said immigration was a part of the reason for the result going against Renzi.
 
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milo said:
I can't pretend to follow Italian politics closely but my understanding is that immigration and Europe did not feature particularly in the referendum debate. Most reports that I have read have said that it was dominated by the unpopularity of the government and Renzi.
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It was more a sign of the next party in power in Italy. That is almost certainly now going to be one that is far less pro-Europe than the current one.

I don't think there's any intention to leave the way the UK has, but the Eurozone breaking apart is the first step towards the reform that the EU needs.
 
I see the Austrians came to their senses and didn't elect that Nazi Norbert Hofer. The way elections/referendums have been going lately I was expecting him to walk in.
 
scaramanga said:
It was more a sign of the next party in power in Italy. That is almost certainly now going to be one that is far less pro-Europe than the current one.

I don't think there's any intention to leave the way the UK has, but the Eurozone breaking apart is the first step towards the reform that the EU needs.
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They are still a while away from a general election and Italian politics is far too volatile for me to make predictions (that and I know bugger all about it).
 
milo said:
They are still a while away from a general election and Italian politics is far too volatile for me to make predictions (that and I know bugger all about it).
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Hasn't Brexit and Trump taught us that political punditry and commentary is no longer required, you just have to guess?
 
Jurgen the German said:
I see the Austrians came to their senses and didn't elect that Nazi Norbert Hofer. The way elections/referendums have been going lately I was expecting him to walk in.
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No one has crossed that line yet, and it's a clear one. Trump flirts with fascism with his attitude to Mexicans, but he's a demagogue rather than an ideologue

Hopefully the anti-fascist Eurosceptic candidate (Fillon) will win in France next
 
milo said:
I can't pretend to follow Italian politics closely but my understanding is that immigration and Europe did not feature particularly in the referendum debate. Most reports that I have read have said that it was dominated by the unpopularity of the government and Renzi.
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Renzi was the poster boy and the great white hope of the EU.

A big part of the rebellion against him was against the Eurozone. The Italians want the lira back, so they can take active control over their economy again.
 
Gutter Boy said:
No one has crossed that line yet, and it's a clear one. Trump flirts with fascism with his attitude to Mexicans, but he's a demagogue rather than an ideologue

Hopefully the anti-fascist Eurosceptic candidate (Fillon) will win in France next
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If he's not a nazi then he's not far off and does a bad job pretending not to be one

So is he really a Nazi in disguise?

Depends who you talk to.

Hofer was responsible for drafting the new Freedom Party manifesto which has taken the party back to its nationalist roots, focusing on “identity” – that’s code for native Austrians, not immigrants or their children.

He has also been spotted wearing the blue cornflower, which is an old clandestine Nazi symbol that harks back to ideas of pan-Germanism, the nineteenth century idea of a ‘greater Germany’ that ultimately inspired Hitler’s foreign policy and the annexations and invasions that triggered the Second World War.

He’s also an honorary member of the student fraternity, Marko-Germania zu Pinkafeld, which has strong links to Austria’s nationalist right-wing.

His defenders – who include other populist leaders like Marine Le Pen of France’s National Front, Frauke Petry of the Alternative for Deutschland and Geert Wilders of the Dutch Party for Freedom - say he’s a “patriot” who is merely recognizing the concerns of ordinary people that have been ignored by Europe’s political elites for too long.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-and-should-europe-be-worried-about-him-beco/
 
Jurgen the German said:
If he's not a nazi then he's not far off and does a bad job pretending not to be one

So is he really a Nazi in disguise?

Depends who you talk to.

Hofer was responsible for drafting the new Freedom Party manifesto which has taken the party back to its nationalist roots, focusing on “identity” – that’s code for native Austrians, not immigrants or their children.

He has also been spotted wearing the blue cornflower, which is an old clandestine Nazi symbol that harks back to ideas of pan-Germanism, the nineteenth century idea of a ‘greater Germany’ that ultimately inspired Hitler’s foreign policy and the annexations and invasions that triggered the Second World War.

He’s also an honorary member of the student fraternity, Marko-Germania zu Pinkafeld, which has strong links to Austria’s nationalist right-wing.

His defenders – who include other populist leaders like Marine Le Pen of France’s National Front, Frauke Petry of the Alternative for Deutschland and Geert Wilders of the Dutch Party for Freedom - say he’s a “patriot” who is merely recognizing the concerns of ordinary people that have been ignored by Europe’s political elites for too long.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-and-should-europe-be-worried-about-him-beco/
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Sorry - no I meant Trump and Farage aren't quite fascists, whereas Austria pulled back because their version was.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Renzi was the poster boy and the great white hope of the EU.

A big part of the rebellion against him was against the Eurozone. The Italians want the lira back, so they can take active control over their economy again.
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Renzi was never a poster boy.

I haven't followed the Italian referendum closely but what I have read has said that it was overwhelming domestic in focus.
 
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