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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Rorschach said:
So let me try and figure out your point. These Swamps rats' annoy you and you have no time for them, but the environmental movement is something you agree with as long as it doesn't inconvenience you.
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I agree with making huge changes to life that can be inconvenience yes, the inconveniences I allude to is stopping people in the street who are innocent to alot of this and causing them grief which I saw alot of and experienced myself as I put on another post.

I've sat in lectures at the University of Saskatchewan on the subject and that of food security so I would say I am somewhat clued up on it and I don't ignore it.

As someone that is on the same side of the message I am allowed to say that I don't agree with how it is delivered, thats the end of it for me
 
I obviously wasn't around then, but it sounds like the nationwide change from coal to gas in the 1940s, and then the move to natural gas in 1967, seem to have been fairly quickly and comprehensively done when the political will kicked in.
 
It's not over - it's far, far from over.

Many hundreds of seats are yet to declare. Many individual political stories yet to be told. So be very aware - the final shape of wins and losses for the government and the main opposition is unclear.

But at this stage of the morning, there is one message to both of the main parties at Westminster from this enormous set of elections - it's not us, it's both of you.

Local elections are about different issues in our villages, towns and cities. But at count after count, Tory and Labour candidates have been paying the price for Westminster's failure so far to settle the Brexit question. Council leaders from both parties saying openly that voters can't trust them any more because of how they have dealt with the issue - whether that is a sentiment among Leave voters in Sunderland who don't trust that we'll ever leave, or Remain voters in Bath who are furious that we likely will.

Or more simply maybe, now we are nearly three years on from the referendum itself, this is a verdict on the competence of Westminster's biggest parties, on the mess of handling Brexit.

The beneficiaries? A Lib Dem recovery of sorts, a marked pick-up for the Greens, and independent councillors gobbling up seats in different pockets of the country. By traditional measures at this early stage, Labour is far from making the strides of a party marching towards Number 10. The Tories have so far escaped the worst. But their divisions over Brexit have cost them both - and neither of them have an obvious way out.

But as I say, many more results are yet to come in, and you can keep up with them here throughout the day.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I agree with making huge changes to life that can be inconvenience yes, the inconveniences I allude to is stopping people in the street who are innocent to alot of this and causing them grief which I saw alot of and experienced myself as I put on another post.

I've sat in lectures at the University of Saskatchewan on the subject and that of food security so I would say I am somewhat clued up on it and I don't ignore it.

As someone that is on the same side of the message I am allowed to say that I don't agree with how it is delivered, thats the end of it for me
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Well I'm sorry that you experienced something like that. Obviously someone stepped over the line in the case(s) you are describing. That doesn't help.

I will pivot back to my earlier point that the tone of the environmental mesage has to change from equivocation to emergency. And for that reason I'll stomach arseholes like Bono bandwagon jumping, or protests or whatever. Every little helps.
 
Key developments so far:
  • The Conservatives have lost control of councils including Peterborough, Basildon and St Albans. Labour has lost control of Hartlepool, Bolsover and Wirral
  • Labour has also lost its mayoral post in Middlesbrough to an independent
  • The Conservatives have won Walsall and North East Lincolnshire - both of which had no party with overall control before
  • The Liberal Democrats have gained councils including Winchester, North Norfolk, Cotswold, Bath and North East Somerset and Vale of White Horse
  • Labour has won Trafford - a former Conservative stronghold
  • Where independent candidates have been standing, they have won on average 25% of the vote - and independents have taken control of two councils - Ashfield and North Kesteven
  • The Green Party has gained 68 councillors so far, while UKIP has lost 62
  • Turnout is averaging just one or two points below the last two local elections, reversing predictions of a major drop-off in voters
 
parklane1 said:
No surprise for me to see both major partys having lost a lot of ground, the performance of them all in the commons over the Brexit decisions/non decisions was a scandal. They should all be ashamed of themselves.
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Local elections are a bit odd in that (unlike GE or EU elections) they are often about local issues.

Like in my area Labour lost 3 seats to Greens, which seems like part of the national narrative, but in fact it is directly linked to the Labour tree scandal: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/sheffield-tree-massacre-parks-green-city-spaces-felling-street-council-yorkshire-a8286581.html.

So Labour are being punished for their bad local government record, not especially their backtracking on Brexit (Sheffield being a leave city)
 
Gutter Boy said:
Local elections are a bit odd in that (unlike GE or EU elections) they are often about local issues.

Like in my area Labour lost 3 seats to Greens, which seems like part of the national narrative, but in fact it is directly linked to the Labour tree scandal: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/sheffield-tree-massacre-parks-green-city-spaces-felling-street-council-yorkshire-a8286581.html.

So Labour are being punished for their bad local government record, not especially their backtracking on Brexit (Sheffield being a leave city)
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Not saying i disagree with you but i think the actions of MP's over the last month or so has a lot to do with these results. I speak to a lot of folks on my travels and to a man/woman they think that the actions in the house have been shocking.
 
parklane1 said:
No surprise for me to see both major partys having lost a lot of ground, the performance of them all in the commons over the Brexit decisions/non decisions was a scandal. They should all be ashamed of themselves.
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Yet the two ‘winners’ from this vote are both Remain parties. Glad the greens are getting traction in local affairs.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
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Gutter Boy said:
The greens aren't necessarily remain. The current leaders may be, but traditionally it's a eurosceptic party and in the House of Lords it is pro leave
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You are talking about the 70's maybe early 80's really. For 30 or so years they have been firmly pro-Europe. And certainly, pro-remain in the Brexit debate.
 
Rorschach said:
You are talking about the 70's maybe early 80's really. For 30 or so years they have been firmly pro-Europe. And certainly, pro-remain in the Brexit debate.
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The EU section of their manifesto is largely hostile. And Jenny Jones (their leader in the lords) was a big part of the leave campaign. They are fundamentally about localism, so diametrically opposed to globalising federalism. Caroline Lucas is not typical of the movement
 
Gutter Boy said:
The greens aren't necessarily remain. The current leaders may be, but traditionally it's a eurosceptic party and in the House of Lords it is pro leave
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The EU has lots of green policies. Clean beaches, factory emmissions, car emmissions. How could european nations businesses compete with each other fairly without them observing transnational green regulation and laws? The EU is needed for environmental policy and cooperation. The Greens are remain obviously.

Anyone who values the environment, why would they want to regress and leave the EU? For that matter anyone who values free trade, european travel, workers rights...etc And we should ditch these things for Brexit which offers what in return? Truth is Zilch. Less than nothing. A negative outlook for the UK. Horrendous waste of time.
 
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Rorschach said:
no they are not
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One is turning natural resources into products, on as big a scale as possible, to sell as quickly as possible, to the most people as possible, for as big a profit as possible. While the other is to avoid turning natural resources into products
 
SpurMeUp said:
Yet the two ‘winners’ from this vote are both Remain parties. Glad the greens are getting traction in local affairs.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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No surprise that you are putting spin on why the two " winners" are remain parties :rolleyes:, you know as well as i do that the vote has gone to them because most folks are disgusted with the actions of those in the house nothing else.
 
parklane1 said:
No surprise that you are putting spin on why the two " winners" are remain parties :rolleyes:, you know as well as i do that the vote has gone to them because most folks are disgusted with the actions of those in the house nothing else.
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would need to see what happens at the EU elections really first i think

as for the greens as someone spends most of his time in Brighton I can tell you they get in only because they are a student protest vote and the are a fcuk load of students and hippies in this town, and Caroline 5 house Lucas does not care about people like she pretends to
 
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