Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[scaramanga]

I don't get these references about trading with the world etc, it's been a fantastic tool of the Brexiteers to message to the general public "we can trade with the world" as if that wasn't happening before.

It's up there with "other economies are growing at a faster rate than the EU" argument. Yeh, they are, my 5 year old is also growing at a faster rate than i am. Doesn't mean you'd want to trade cars with him though does it.

My company is only one example but I know of many others.

We cannot trade with the world because we are too expensive. We are too expensive (in part) because of EU regulation that is not required in the countries we want to sell to, such as the US and the Middle East.

The EU (for reasons I cannot fathom) also places tariffs and quotas on imports.

 

[P.D.]

The green wave that swept over Europe did not hit the UK. Brexit has been all of UK politics for the last few years as this thread testifies to. So whether you think people are demanding change or not, it is not represented in UK politics to the same degree as anywhere else and you have admitted as much in your posts.


As mentioned a few times I know little to nothing about UK greens or the XR so I have no particular comment on them, other than they seem to shoot themselves in the foot a lot. Par for the course with UK politics it would seem.

And yes I believe millions (not billions) will die and many more will become climate refugees. The UN predicts 200million climate refugees on the move by 2050 if we don't drastically change course. Did you get to read the uninhabitable earth yet? That was you right?

I don't think that's the case, the UK was the first to legislate to be carbon neutral, has more offshore wind capacity than any other country, is developing some leading edge technology for carbon capture and banned gas boilers from new builds from 2025 - maybe not as prominent as some green packages in highlight terms but there's been a steady accumulation of green policies.

The Greens indeed shoot themselves in the foot, conflicting messages e.g. leader in the upper chamber (house of lords is anti EU and doesn't go far enough environmentally) whereas party leader is pro EU. They support mass building of home (as I do) but I always thought concrete was one of the most polluting substances on earth. Support for freedom of movement etc can only come at an environmental cost.

As for XR they lose credibility with me e.g. there's been a UK citizens assembly recently to agree on some climate changes goals but XR typically don't agree with it as they claim it doesn't go far enough (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54087176) despite plenty of people in the UK including the Greens suggesting the use of a Citizens Assembly is the way forward. To me they're a group that's unable to compromise and is starting to become a protest group more than an awareness group.

That was indeed me, I've bought it but with a baby under 1 I don't have the time to read it at the moment - will do so when I get some time.

 

[Grays_1890]

I don't think that's the case, the UK was the first to legislate to be carbon neutral, has more offshore wind capacity than any other country, is developing some leading edge technology for carbon capture and banned gas boilers from new builds from 2025 - maybe not as prominent as some green packages in highlight terms but there's been a steady accumulation of green policies.

The Greens indeed shoot themselves in the foot, conflicting messages e.g. leader in the upper chamber (house of lords is anti EU and doesn't go far enough environmentally) whereas party leader is pro EU. They support mass building of home (as I do) but I always thought concrete was one of the most polluting substances on earth. Support for freedom of movement etc can only come at an environmental cost.

As for XR they lose credibility with me e.g. there's been a UK citizens assembly recently to agree on some climate changes goals but XR typically don't agree with it as they claim it doesn't go far enough (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54087176) despite plenty of people in the UK including the Greens suggesting the use of a Citizens Assembly is the way forward. To me they're a group that's unable to compromise and is starting to become a protest group more than an awareness group.

That was indeed me, I've bought it but with a baby under 1 I don't have the time to read it at the moment - will do so when I get some time.

The issue I have with these kinds of groups is it seems enough will never be enough. TBF the worlds having to reverse how ever thousands of years of what is causing this and yes we make mistakes but there is no switch to reverse what's happening.

I'm not defending any mistakes or the government but I do wonder if people attack the right people when it comes to those trying g to reverse historical tides and those proactiveky pumping the planet for its natural resources or damage etc

 

[Rorschach]

I understand that some don't like politicians or the activists in the climate space. I don't like some of them myself, but please don't let that inform your opinion or actions on what is the most important issue in human history. We're in the end game now. We caused the worst of this, this generation and the last, and if it is to be slowed it is this generation that must do it.

 

[Rorschach]

I don't think that's the case, the UK was the first to legislate to be carbon neutral, has more offshore wind capacity than any other country, is developing some leading edge technology for carbon capture and banned gas boilers from new builds from 2025 - maybe not as prominent as some green packages in highlight terms but there's been a steady accumulation of green policies.

Sorry to chop your post, but I agree that all of this is fantastic. However, the Green political wave did not hit the UK though like other EU countries. The UK compares very favourably to most countries in the energy production space. The UK government deserves massive credit for this. These are different things though.

Carbon capture makes good headlines though it is not going to save us. I have read many articles on this. It is the panda bear in climate activism circles, and according to those who watch this sort of thing closer than I do it is not something that will play a big part in the solution. Every little helps I suppose.

 

[glasgowspur]

Sorry to chop your post, but I agree that all of this is fantastic. However, the Green political wave did not hit the UK though like other EU countries. The UK compares very favourably to most countries in the energy production space. The UK government deserves massive credit for this. These are different things though.

Carbon capture makes good headlines though it is not going to save us. I have read many articles on this. It is the panda bear in climate activism circles, and according to those who watch this sort of thing closer than I do it is not something that will play a big part in the solution. Every little helps I suppose.

Oi! Leave off the pandas, or else.

 

[Grays_1890]

I understand that some don't like politicians or the activists in the climate space. I don't like some of them myself, but please don't let that inform your opinion or actions on what is the most important issue in human history. We're in the end game now. We caused the worst of this, this generation and the last, and if it is to be slowed it is this generation that must do it.

True but like I say how do you change it overnight? Cull had the worlds population? Like I said we are reversing centuries of development to where we are now, its not just the last two generations so I get the anger, I get the concern but let's get a grasp of reality

 

[scaramanga]

True but like I say how do you change it overnight? Cull had the worlds population? Like I said we are reversing centuries of development to where we are now, its not just the last two generations so I get the anger, I get the concern but let's get a grasp of reality

Population is really the problem - the biggest by far.

Environmentals tend to be pinks too though, so I doubt you'll get them to support culling half the planet.

 

[Rorschach]

True but like I say how do you change it overnight? Cull had the worlds population? Like I said we are reversing centuries of development to where we are now, its not just the last two generations so I get the anger, I get the concern but let's get a grasp of reality

No we are not reversing centuries, just about 40 years really. Nor is it development we are rolling back, it is carbon output. The perception that this a slow train to oblivion over an immeasurable time is not true. I could flood you with articles and data on this but trust me that this is a problem of our creation. We did this.

The climate myths that float through all MSM are a bit like the propaganda from the cigarette companies. It is accepted wisdom, but what we think we know is really the construct of the fossil fuel industry propaganda (the drilled podcast is a good insight on this).

What is happening is not inevitable but we are on the downslope. How bad it gets is up to us.

 

[Grays_1890]

No we are not reversing centuries, just about 40 years really. Nor is its development we are rolling back, it is carbon output. The perception that this a slow train to oblivion over an immeasurable time is not true. I could flood you with articles and data on this but trust me that this is a problem of our creation. We did this.

The myths that float through all MSM are a bit like the propaganda from the cigarette companies. It is accepted wisdom, but what we think we know is really the construct of the fossil fuel industry propaganda (the drilled podcast is a good insight on this).

What is happening is not inevitable but we are on the downslope. How bad it gets is up to us.

Of course we are, the planets devastation is linked by lineal damage, place each on top of each other and you get where we are today. The universes depenancy on coal as energy in the 1800s was hugely damaging to the planet, not to levels now but historical damage adds up, we are also where we are today because of historical abuse of natural resources which develops. Development and use of nuclear and waste hardly helped.

Over development, population and output of areas in Asia for example maybe worse in last v40 years but you don't just click your fingers and arrive where youare, it comes as a result of history and developments over time.

 

[Rorschach]

Of course we are, the planets devastation is linked by lineal damage, place each on top of each other and you get where we are today. The universes depenancy on coal as energy in the 1800s was hugely damaging to the planet, not to levels now but historical damage adds up, we are also where we are today because of historical abuse of natural resources which develops. Development and use of nuclear and waste hardly helped.

Over development, population and output of areas in Asia for example maybe worse in last v40 years but you don't just click your fingers and arrive where youare, it comes as a result of history and developments over time.

Yes it does add up, but 50% of all the carbon in the atmosphere has been put there in the last 30 years. 85% since WWII. Global warming may have started in the industrial revolution but it is not linear. Not close.
Nuclear waste is a red herring in this discussion.

 

[Grays_1890]

Yes it does add up, but 50% of all the carbon in the atmosphere has been put there in the last 30 years. 85% since WWII. Global warming may have started in the industrial revolution but it not linear. Not close.
Nuclear waste is a red herring in this discussion.

Its lineal in that all technology or developments are a product of what came before.

Then you look at agricultural development that spiked an increase in human energy output and subsequent need to increase calories input that sits where i t does today, add that the increase in population which again comes from years of development you have our oncoming global food and water crisis.

The planet is however many Thousands of years old, we have accelerated the decline but let's not kid ourselves you reverse 2000 years of mistakes in a year or two.

 

[Rorschach]

Its lineal in that all technology or developments are a product of what came before.

Then you look at agricultural development that spiked an increase in human energy output and subsequent need to increase calories input that sits where i t does today, add that the increase in population which again comes from years of development you have our oncoming global food and water crisis.

The planet is however many Thousands of years old, we have accelerated the decline but let's not kid ourselves you reverse 2000 years of mistakes in a year or two.

Whatever mistakes we have made over millions of years of human existence pale into insignificance to the damage that has happened in the last few decades. We have taken a stable climate to the point of catastrophe in an astonishingly short amount of time. This is not my opinion but the opinion of leading climate scientists.

As for your final point, I'll say again there is no reverse now. Only how we can minimise the damage.

If you want to continue this discussion, maybe we can jump to the climate thread instead.

 

[glasgowspur]

Whatever mistakes we have made over millions of years of human existence pale into insignificance to the damage that has happened in the last few decades. We have taken a stable climate to the point of catastrophe in an astonishingly short amount of time. This is not my opinion but the opinion of leading climate scientists.

As for your final point, I'll say again there is no reverse now. Only how we can minimise the damage.

If you want to continue this discussion, maybe we can jump to the climate thread instead.

We are making the same mistakes we have been making for generations, it just there's more of us making them, and for longer.
And there ain't no sign of that getting any better. In fact it's getting worse.
Would be interesting if someone could correlate the numbers on the R rate of covid and the panic it's caused to population explosion and the almost total lack of action on it.

 

[thfcsteff]

The issue I have with these kinds of groups is it seems enough will never be enough. TBF the worlds having to reverse how ever thousands of years of what is causing this and yes we make mistakes but there is no switch to reverse what's happening.

I'm not defending any mistakes or the government but I do wonder if people attack the right people when it comes to those trying g to reverse historical tides and those proactiveky pumping the planet for its natural resources or damage etc

No NOT "thousands of years" you can clearly, CLEARLY see that the major damage has occurred over the last four decades, with the 90s and early 2000s absolutely devastating. I will agree that there is no switch to reverse this brick.

I am so tired of people trying to wage this "passage of time" garbage (nothing personal at you, more at anyone who actually does this). I have been saying forever that in the 38 years I have been actively traveling the world regularly, I have seen temperatures drastically shift in certain cities over the decades by (in some cases) as much as 20 degrees in certain seasons. My fear is we have crossed a deadly rubicon...

I shot this 8 miles up the road from me last Wednesday. No photoshop. Yes, it looks like a Star Wars or Blade Runner 2049 set. But it wasn't. It was simply lunchtime near Pacifica.

 

[SpurMeUp]

We probably need a virus more deadly than Covid to really sort out the planet. That would be a quick fix. The point Rorschach was making before is that is not necessary that we cull humans on mass (which could happen from climate change). Technologically we can address carbon emission now within a decade if we were motivated to.

The reason societies are not motivated to do more, more quickly is because too many adults have a 'whatever' attitude; which you can see in this thread. There is acceptance and resignation. 'We do what we do' rather than we will 'change what we do'.

 

[Rorschach]

We are making the same mistakes we have been making for generations, it just there's more of us making them, and for longer.
And there ain't no sign of that getting any better. In fact it's getting worse.
Would be interesting if someone could correlate the numbers on the R rate of covid and the panic it's caused to population explosion and the almost total lack of action on it.

We are making all new mistakes too, unfortunately.

 

[scaramanga]

We probably need a virus more deadly than Covid to really sort out the planet. That would be a quick fix. The point Rorschach was making before is that is not necessary that we cull humans on mass (which could happen from climate change). Technologically we can address carbon emission now within a decade if we were motivated to.

The reason societies are not motivated to do more, more quickly is because too many adults have a 'whatever' attitude; which you can see in this thread. There is acceptance and resignation. 'We do what we do' rather than we will 'change what we do'.

I think you've misread the attitudes of most.

I can only speak for myself and those I've discussed this with but I think an attitude of "I will change my behaviour when the alternative is at least as good and at least as cheap" is a prevailing one.

If people put as much effort into improving alternatives as they do into trying to pressure those who don't conform to their neo-puritan world view, we'd probably have solved this by now.

 

[glasgowspur]

We are making all new mistakes too, unfortunately.

And they get worse with every generation.
This desire to improve everyone's quality of life is killing us.
I think most of us on here for example would be happy to stall our development if it could improve the quality of life of those in third world countries, but instead we push our levels and work on the trickle down policy.

 

[Grays_1890]

No NOT "thousands of years" you can clearly, CLEARLY see that the major damage has occurred over the last four decades, with the 90s and early 2000s absolutely devastating. I will agree that there is no switch to reverse this brick.

I am so tired of people trying to wage this "passage of time" garbage (nothing personal at you, more at anyone who actually does this). I have been saying forever that in the 38 years I have been actively traveling the world regularly, I have seen temperatures drastically shift in certain cities over the decades by (in some cases) as much as 20 degrees in certain seasons. My fear is we have crossed a deadly rubicon...

I shot this 8 miles up the road from me last Wednesday. No photoshop. Yes, it looks like a Star Wars or Blade Runner 2049 set. But it wasn't. It was simply lunchtime near Pacifica.





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I think though what I'm saying is being treated like I'm excusing this generation, I'm not.

My point is the world has history of mans decisions impacting their environment and those impacts starting small add up to where we are now. You can plot moments in time from invention or use of resources that resulted in the prolific use of say the worlds use of oil and subsequently petrol, that started from historical development. Then you look at histories reason for exploration, need to find more to survive which then turned into a thirst for power which influenced where we now see the vast over population we see today all over the world.

Its clear from the reversing effect of Coronavirus on the environment that its the day to day effect of over population and whats needed to keep these numbers moving and alive. The mass production of food, moving for work, moving for recreation, movement of supply chain stock, production of technology and products to exist all the things thats stopped during CV and helped the environment but what we cant not live without if people are to exist and them changes to over population on a mass scale in an environment we have reached naturally and are comfortable with is going to take alot longer than a click of the fingers to change.

There has been a progression over hundreds and thousands of years to get to where man is now that we are too reliant on this way of life to exist, Thats the unfortunate truth.