Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[scaramanga]

So you are revising your previous statement? Effectively, only some examinations demonstrate both applied knowledge and the ability to cope under pressure?

Exams always show ability to cope under pressure.

Exams in doss subjects don't show the use of applied learning when there is no learning to apply.

 

[Wilheldiva]

Its a massively sweeping statement. Backed up with what evidence?

How is a PHD assessed? Not with an examination. But with a far more critical, in-depth appraisal by peers. In short a presentation and interview.

we're not going to give multiple peer reviewed "in-depth...presentations and interviews" to the thousands of gcse and a-level students though are we? if time and resource were not an issue, we could all come up with a better grading/examination system than we currently have.

additionally, phd students have typically already shown a great aptitude at exam based education. phds in many cases are more about original projects and exploring new avenues of thinking (once a level of excellence in a field of study has already been attained). therefore it would make sense that exams are less of a grading criteria given that there is no curriculum. this is not, and should not be the case for under 18 school students.

How many people are great at swatting and writing well - but throw them into an unknown situation and they crumble? Plenty of A-grade students don't cut it in certain tasks that require thinking outside the box. Exams test an individual's ability to prepare and write exams. It's not a bad system for assessing an individual, but it is far from comprehensive.

if you pick a sample of oxbridge students with 3 A*'s and compare them to met university students with 3 C's, you'll find that on average the oxbridge students are far more capable at "thinking outside the box". exams may be testing someones ability to "regurgitate information" - but to do this well, students need a high level of cognitive ability, resilience and work ethic - basically the traits that enable one to think outside the box too.

surely you're not going to claim that this year's students, who have been graded with more emphasis on coursework, are going to show more of an ability to think outside of the box than previous generation of students? you dont need a phd to see how this patently will not be the case

 

[Grays_1890]

Surely you don’t get to be a surgeon without being a book worm as well?

And these procedures were theorised by book worms in the first place right?

But a steady hand with a knife after a row with the wife and lack of sleep due to a headache and being able to think on your feet????

What I'm saying is exams have more relevance than just being token

 

[SpurMeUp]

we're not going to give multiple peer reviewed "in-depth...presentations and interviews" to the thousands of gcse and a-level students though are we? if time and resource were not an issue, we could all come up with a better grading/examination system than we currently have.

additionally, phd students have typically already shown a great aptitude at exam based education. phds in many cases are more about original projects and exploring new avenues of thinking (once a level of excellence in a field of study has already been attained). therefore it would make sense that exams are less of a grading criteria given that there is no curriculum. this is not, and should not be the case for under 18 school students.

I agree. But what I wanted to convey was that exams are suboptimal. Mainly because education has needed to be efficient and uniform. Schools as we know them were developed around the time of the industrial revolution, and use a factory model with kids going in one end, following a set path. But who is to say this model is optimal? Just because it is, it doesn't mean its necessarily the best model. It is an efficient model. But with that efficiency, we lose - stamp out - a lot of creativity from our kids.

if you pick a sample of oxbridge students with 3 A*'s and compare them to met university students with 3 C's, you'll find that on average the oxbridge students are far more capable at "thinking outside the box". exams may be testing someones ability to "regurgitate information" - but to do this well, students need a high level of cognitive ability, resilience and work ethic - basically the traits that enable one to think outside the box too.

Again this is an overly simplistic analysis. First, you're suggesting that exams are the reason why people end up at Oxbridge. While exams are a big component, Oxbridge students are also asked to attend an interview, write a personal statement and show they have an extra spark - not just an ability to swat. Secondly, how do you control for the effects of parenting? Many people have high levels of cognitive ability but no one to coach them down an academic path. Thirdly, thinking outside the box, might help someone to start up a business. A kid who say dealt drugs, got their act together, attending a non-elite uni, has probably had better training to get by setting up a business than a swat.

In short, these things are too complex to make sweeping statements. Exams are no doubt useful. But don't base every judgment of an individual on them, that would obviously be foolish.

 

[scaramanga]

A kid who say dealt drugs, got their act together, attending a non-elite uni, has probably had better training to get by setting up a business than a swat.

Sounds a little bit fairytale to me.

What does that kid do when a customer wants to meet at their club?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Sounds a little bit fairytale to me.

What does that kid do when a customer wants to meet at their club?

You don't think drug dealing involves social skills or levels of social dexterity? for that matter entrepreneurial instinct, determination, creativity to earn money etc

 

[glasgowspur]

Exams always show ability to cope under pressure.

Exams in doss subjects don't show the use of applied learning when there is no learning to apply.

I'm cack at exams, absolutely awful, but I don't understand your pressure thing.
If you've done the work, understand it and know when you are going to be asked it what's the big deal?
Surely pressure is when something goes wrong, happens at a time when you don't expect it etc.
I excel in those situations, when everyone else is running about bumping into walls I can see clearly and organise, adapt and get things done.

 

[glasgowspur]

Tory Defenders, Assemble!

Explain something to me, please, Dido Harding? I'll try to stick to facts:

1) Has no medical background
2) Was named head of NHS Track and Trace
3) Track and trace has been pretty poorly received by all accounts, no app (despite many nations having this and we spent millions on it - far more than Ireland who have a working app), and a failure to contact and trace around 25-33% of cases
4) Now in charge of NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH PROTECTION (please see point 1 again at this point)
5) Her Husband (Tory MP) just happens to sit on the board of a 'think tank' that has mooted privatising the NHS and also scrapping Public Health England (which has now happened as she's now the head of NIHP per point 4)

And er... you're all ok with this? You see no issues whatsoever with any of the above?

As i mentioned earlier per Chris Grayling, poor performance and failure gets rewarded here, and we all suffer, Labour, Lib Dem, Tory voters, you still want the best people in charge. And i dont' see that.

I agree with your principle, politicians and the NHS shouldn't mix, but who was last non political person/best person for the job appointed?

 

[scaramanga]

You don't think drug dealing involves social skills or levels of social dexterity? for that matter entrepreneurial instinct, determination, creativity to earn money etc

I do. I don't think it prepares one for an invitation to exclusive establishments. What about meetings on an private member's golf course?

I know I wouldn't take anyone I business seriously with that kind of accent, and I'm far from alone.

 

[scaramanga]

I'm cack at exams, absolutely awful, but I don't understand your pressure thing.
If you've done the work, understand it and know when you are going to be asked it what's the big deal?
Surely pressure is when something goes wrong, happens at a time when you don't expect it etc.
I excel in those situations, when everyone else is running about bumping into walls I can see clearly and organise, adapt and get things done.

Quite often tough moments turn up planned - just like exams do.

 

[thfcsteff]

I do. I don't think it prepares one for an invitation to exclusive establishments. What about meetings on an private member's golf course?

I know I wouldn't take anyone I business seriously with that kind of accent, and I'm far from alone.

I'd say this lot know a thing or two about peddling dope to literally millions of people AND likely know their way around a "luncheon" at many a private golf club.

Not ALL drug dealers are oiks.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bu...alth-philanthropy-oxycontin-photos-2019-1?amp

 

[Baleforce]

I do. I don't think it prepares one for an invitation to exclusive establishments. What about meetings on an private member's golf course?

I know I wouldn't take anyone I business seriously with that kind of accent, and I'm far from alone.

I make a point of rejecting all offers that involve golf, especially those linkedin requests you get where the sales guy’s picture is him teeing off.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I do. I don't think it prepares one for an invitation to exclusive establishments. What about meetings on an private member's golf course?

I know I wouldn't take anyone I business seriously with that kind of accent, and I'm far from alone.

To recap, we got to this ludicrous post (I’m sure you’re half joking) because there was a hypothesis that exams correlate with thinking outside the box, which can be a skill needed in entrepreneurship.

How many jobs, entrepreneurial or otherwise, require you to work in isolation? Isn’t most work associated with with some form of collaboration, on the golf course, in an office on the phone? How do exams prepare people to work with others? Collaboration during an exam has a name, it’s called cheating.

Those who respect exams greatly should also like national league tables that measure how effective different nations education systems are. Finland consistently ranks as one of the best education systems in the world and they have very few standardised test, with far more teacher involvement.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[scaramanga]

I'd say this lot know a thing or two about peddling dope to literally millions of people AND likely know their way around a "luncheon" at many a private golf club.

Not ALL drug dealers are oiks.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/who-are-the-sacklers-wealth-philanthropy-oxycontin-photos-2019-1?amp

Business insider as a sauce? That entire website is clickbait.

Insert comment here about edginess. If you genuinely can't see the difference between pharmaceutical companies and drug dealers then it's really not worth my time even starting.

 

[scaramanga]

To recap, we got to this ludicrous post (I’m sure you’re half joking) because there was a hypothesis that exams correlate with thinking outside the box, which can be a skill needed in entrepreneurship.

How many jobs, entrepreneurial or otherwise, require you to work in isolation? Isn’t most work associated with with some form of collaboration, on the golf course, in an office on the phone? How do exams prepare people to work with others? Collaboration during an exam has a name, it’s called cheating.

Those who respect exams greatly should also like national league tables that measure how effective different nations education systems are. Finland consistently ranks as one of the best education systems in the world and they have very few standardised test, with far more teacher involvement.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Exams aren't there to test skills at sitting in a room answering questions - they're designed by people with a little more intelligence than that.

Exams test the ability to apply knowledge (the best ones in ways that are entirely novel to those sitting the exam) in a way that coursework simply cannot.

 

[thfcsteff]

Business insider as a sauce? That entire website is clickbait.

Insert comment here about edginess. If you genuinely can't see the difference between pharmaceutical companies and drug dealers then it's really not worth my time even starting.

Ha.
How many references would you like?
I'll just offer this for now...the New Yorker. There are many.
Insert comment here about myopic snobbery.
If you genuinely cannot see the difference between some members of the pharmacutical industry and drug dealers then "not being worth your time" will be doing me a favour.

In fairness, I understood your first point, I just don't agree that it is wholly accurate, though again, I understand that you were making the point that a drug Lord from Peckham is probably not going to be able to mingle smoothly at a private golf club. There are, of course, many ways around that, but we tangent...

..some of the wealthiest and most frequent attendees of private golf clubs are (however) also peddlers in bespoke Savile Row clothing...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ne...0/the-family-that-built-an-empire-of-pain/amp

 

[thfcsteff]

To recap, we got to this ludicrous post (I’m sure you’re half joking) because there was a hypothesis that exams correlate with thinking outside the box, which can be a skill needed in entrepreneurship.

How many jobs, entrepreneurial or otherwise, require you to work in isolation? Isn’t most work associated with with some form of collaboration, on the golf course, in an office on the phone? How do exams prepare people to work with others? Collaboration during an exam has a name, it’s called cheating.

Those who respect exams greatly should also like national league tables that measure how effective different nations education systems are. Finland consistently ranks as one of the best education systems in the world and they have very few standardised test, with far more teacher involvement.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Sadly there appear to be a growing number of people who don't appreciate teamwork or being able to assemble/manage great teams.

 

[Legohamster]

Any reason as to why the exams couldn’t have been taken ?

seems Europe managed to do some?

exams are a social distanced activity anyway?

 

[Diamond Lights]

Any reason as to why the exams couldn’t have been taken ?

seems Europe managed to do some?

exams are a social distanced activity anyway?

Clearly the Exams Hall is a dangerous setting compared to say a Pub.

 

[Baleforce]

Any reason as to why the exams couldn’t have been taken ?

seems Europe managed to do some?

exams are a social distanced activity anyway?

because they don't trust the students to do them at home and not cheat

I'd cheat