Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[SpurMeUp]

Absolutely. Being a graduate used to be a filter for many jobs.

Now employers have a greater choice of better-educated people. That's a problem?

You would like to deny others what you yourself benefited from.

What am I missing here?

 

[P.D.]

And? The problem with aiming to let half the population do a degree if they wish to is what?

Is anyone stopping people still doing degrees? 100% of people can go to university if that want to. No, just having arbitary targets gives the perception that going to university helps get you set for life when the reality is far far different.

Nothing wrong with going to university of course, it's a great experience and sure it can help get certain jobs but there's many things you can do in life without a degree which is the point people are trying to make.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Is anyone stopping people still doing degrees? 400% of people can go to university if that want to. No, just having arbitary targets gives the perception that going to university helps get you set for life when the reality is far far different.

It's simple, either you think half the population should be encouraged to do a degree, or like this Tory party, think they should not, and that Higher Education should be for a select minority - less than half the population.

 

[scaramanga]

Now employers have a greater choice of better-educated people. That's a problem?

You would like to deny others what you yourself benefited from.

What am I missing here?

A filter on graduates is useless now. I've interviewed plenty of them and most are barely of average intelligence.

You can educate a stupid person all you want, they may retain some specific knowledge but you'll never make them intelligent.

 

[Grays_1890]

I just watched once upon a time in Iraq. My GHod was it a sobering my watch. How the US and U.K. could go in there with no plan other than the oil, under the lies they did...wow

 

[SpurMeUp]

A filter on graduates is useless now. I've interviewed plenty of them and most are barely of average intelligence.

You can educate a stupid person all you want, they may retain some specific knowledge bit you'll never make them intelligent.

I have probably interviewed a similar amount of people to you. I don't use a degree to judge a person. But as you know if you wish to determine a more elite candidate you use the calibre of the university they attended, a first-class degree and A level results. But a good interviewer won't use that to determine who to hire anyway. It is not the most important variable.

30+ years ago there were plenty of intelligent people who attended state schools who didn't have a chance to educate themselves beyond school education. People who would have broadened their horizons at university IF they wanted to. Why wouldn't you want to encourage that? Why would you want to take away and discourage education?

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

Everybody should be allowed to do a degree and should be properly funded to do so if they want to take the state up on it, but only after the age of thirty. Higher education, like anything civilised or worth having, is wasted on youths.

 

[scaramanga]

I have probably interviewed a similar amount of people to you. I don't use a degree to judge a person. But as you know if you wish to determine a more elite candidate you use the calibre of the university they attended, a first-class degree and A level results. But a good interviewer won't use that to determine who to hire anyway. It is not the most important variable.

30+ years ago there were plenty of intelligent people who attended state schools who didn't have a chance to educate themselves beyond school education. People who would have broadened their horizons at university IF they wanted to. Why wouldn't you want to encourage that? Why would you want to take away and discourage education?

So having gone from being able to filter at degree level to now having to aim for better universities and higher grades means that degrees are now worth less than before.

 

[SpurMeUp]

So having gone from being able to filter at degree level to now having to aim for better universities and higher grades means that degrees are now worth less than before.

If there are more people with degrees it dilutes 'a degree' for employers (that are too lazy to look at the candidate themselves). That's elemental maths.

The worth to the individual is the important bit, and you've given no coherent logic for why we should seek to lower university attendance.

Older people do take more from higher education there is no doubt, having real-world experience and then studying is more potent. Roosevelt's New Deal in the US has been cited as a key factor in America's economic success in the latter 20th century and 21st century. Returning WWII servicemen were given the option of a free college education. Relatively experienced folks who'd seen a lot and traveled were given free access to higher education. People that wouldn't have had a chance to attend university normally. This was extended to Vietnam vets. Some believe that these graduates were key to powering the US economy, making it what it is today.

 

[P.D.]

It's simple, either you think half the population should be encouraged to do a degree, or like this Tory party, think they should not, and that Higher Education should be for a select minority - less than half the population.

You like to twist words don't you, I never said higher education should be for a select minority. I actually advocated for expanding higher education availability of which university is just one of a number of options available.

As I said I had a great time at university but at the moment it's made out to be a panacea when in reality for a lot of people it leads to high levels of debt and no clear path to a decent job at the end of it. There's hundreds of thousands of people with degrees either unemployed or working minimum wage jobs and you often read stories about them complaining they can't get a decent job.

I believe the government should promote higher education in general including university, apprenticeships, other skills based courses like trades etc including equal investment into all of these areas so people can make a uniformed choice on what they want to do.

You already said in another post you don't use a degree to judge a person and many employers have cottoned on to this years ago so I don't see why we should encourage people to go to university above all other forms/options of higher education which in many ways could be a better option for them.

 

[SpurMeUp]

You like to twist words don't you, I never said higher education should be for a select minority. I actually advocated for expanding higher education availability of which university is just one of a number of options available.

As I said I had a great time at university but at the moment it's made out to be a panacea when in reality for a lot of people it leads to high levels of debt and no clear path to a decent job at the end of it. There's hundreds of thousands of people with degrees either unemployed or working minimum wage jobs and you often read stories about them complaining they can't get a decent job.

I believe the government should promote higher education in general including university, apprenticeships, other skills based courses like trades etc including equal investment into all of these areas so people can make a uniformed choice on what they want to do.

You already said in another post you don't use a degree to judge a person and many employers have cottoned on to this years ago so I don't see why we should encourage people to go to university above all other forms/options of higher education which in many ways could be a better option for them.

Apprenticeships are obviously not higher education. Further Education colleges are a lower standard of education than Universities, more could be invested to make the courses better. You wouldn't take back your university education and swap it for an FE course, but you'd advocate others do in the future? Many University degrees are actually quite skills-based already. Nursing, midwifery etc. are vocational with clear jobs at the end of the degree.

It's an interesting political stance. Should higher education be for the elite? If so sure back the Tories. But if you think everyone should have the freedom to educate themselves at a higher level beyond school, then this is a backward step and signals that the Tories don't want to extend what they benefited from to others. Keep what is ours. Have the plebs get a trade and service us.

Not everyone should go to university. But everyone should have the opportunity. If that means encouraging people to go to Uni who don't have parents who guide them through school into higher education or have a private school education, then I am all for a 50% target.

Will be interesting to see how the government tries to reduce higher education attendance now.

 

[scaramanga]

If there are more people with degrees it dilutes 'a degree' for employers (that are too lazy to look at the candidate themselves). That's elemental maths.

Then they're pointless.

We educate people to prepare them to join the workforce. If, as employers, we now have to ignore degrees as a measure of competence then they're not doing what they're supposed to do.

The worth to the individual is the important bit, and you've given no coherent logic for why we should seek to lower university attendance.

What is this, the fudging Care Bears movie? Who gives a fudge what worth people feel their education has? The worth of someone's education is it's worth to society.

I've met and interviewed plenty of graduates who do not possess the critical thinking, motivation or analytical skills to have achieved a proper degree 20-30 years ago. The fact that some ex-poly has formed a course to fit around their very limited skill set has neither improved their intelligence nor their worth to society. It has, critically, stopped them learning a trade through which they will eventually earn a living and delayed their career advancement by three years whilst putting them massively in debt.

Older people do take more from higher education there is no doubt, having real-world experience and then studying is more potent. Roosevelt's New Deal in the US has been cited as a key factor in America's economic success in the latter 20th century and 21st century. Returning WWII servicemen were given the option of a free college education. Relatively experienced folks who'd seen a lot and traveled were given free access to higher education. People that wouldn't have had a chance to attend university normally. This was extended to Vietnam vets. Some believe that these graduates were key to powering the US economy, making it what it is today.

Again, attendance at university for its own sake is pointless. Some people are intelligent enough to use critical thinking and analytical skills, most aren't. There is little that can be taught to that majority other than direct, subject-based knowledge, which is essentially the same as a trade school.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Then they're pointless.

We educate people to prepare them to join the workforce. If, as employers, we now have to ignore degrees as a measure of competence then they're not doing what they're supposed to do.

You now have to look at where the degree is from and assess the individual. This is relatively simple, if you can't do that then you're not competent to be assessing candidates.

What is this, the fudging Care Bears movie? Who gives a fudge what worth people feel their education has? The worth of someone's education is it's worth to society.

I've met and interviewed plenty of graduates who do not possess the critical thinking, motivation or analytical skills to have achieved a proper degree 20-30 years ago. The fact that some ex-poly has formed a course to fit around their very limited skill set has neither improved their intelligence nor their worth to society. It has, critically, stopped them learning a trade through which they will eventually earn a living and delayed their career advancement by three years whilst putting them massively in debt.

The point of education is to develop an ability to learn. It might not be in the subject you studied. But you should develop the skills to breakdown any task or research and be critical and analyse whatever you need to look at. That has a huge range of applications, whether the individual uses that for themselves day to day or gets a better job, that is up to them. I thought you were a libertarian? Instead you seem to advocate a centralised control over people's education.

Again, attendance at university for its own sake is pointless. Some people are intelligent enough to use critical thinking and analytical skills, most aren't. There is little that can be taught to that majority other than direct, subject-based knowledge, which is essentially the same as a trade school.

Who said it is for its own sake? Although it can be a great laugh, a place where people develop friendships, have subsidised beer etc, unless they complete each academic task each year, they won't finish their degree. There will always be toffs who are not smart but go to university because they get the help required. There will also always be smart people who don't have a helping hand. Don't have parents able to pay for their education or coach them. Even those who aren't super smart can take a lot from higher education - as you did. What makes you so special that you can benefit from it, but others can't?

 

[scaramanga]

You now have to look at where the degree is from and assess the individual. This is relatively simple, if you can't do that then you're not competent to be assessing candidates.

So if a degree is now not enough of an education for a simple office admin role, what's the point in a degree?

The point of education is to develop an ability to learn. It might not be in the subject you studied. But you should develop the skills to breakdown any task or research and be critical and analyse whatever you need to look at. That has a huge range of applications, whether the individual uses that for themselves day to day or gets a better job, that is up to them. I thought you were a libertarian? Instead you seem to advocate a centralised control over people's education.

I agree. Those are not the skills current graduates are leaving university with. They're not skills that could ever be learned by many of them - they just don't possess the prerequisite intelligence.

Who said it is for its own sake? Although it can be a great laugh, a place where people develop friendships, have subsidised beer etc, unless they complete each academic task each year, they won't finish their degree. There will always be toffs who are not smart but go to university because they get the help required. There will also always be smart people who don't have a helping hand. Don't have parents able to pay for their education or coach them. Even those who aren't super smart can take a lot from higher education - as you did. What makes you so special that you can benefit from it, but others can't?

I'm a few SD above the norm - I don't think it's ridiculous to expect university candidates to be more than 1SD from average.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Why not test intelligence and send all those of a certain intelligence to university?

What an awful communist-like idea.

 

[Seedy Ron]

The more options for further education, the better, IMO. Surprised the 50 percent thing was still a thing.

Big wait and see on Gav and co delivering anything though.

 

[scaramanga]

Why not test intelligence and send all those of a certain intelligence to university?

What an awful communist-like idea.

Fine by me as long as they pay.

 

[Grays_1890]

The more options for further education, the better, IMO. Surprised the 50 percent thing was still a thing.

Big wait and see on Gav and co delivering anything though.

I’m not knocking further education but I agree with Scara based on the fact anyone going to Uni should do so with a level of intelligence to attribute to their actual future. Ala becoming a Dr or someone in higher economics.

There is doubt some take courses that prolong them joining the real world because that’s how they want to live, I know I have friends who took pointless courses at Uni just to do that.

If you were of a more limited intelligence, far from thick but say average, I class myself there, I honestly don’t see the point unless it’s with the Unbiased drive to meet your end goal.

Otherwise working from bottom and moving up from 17 is a faster route to success, in my view

 

[scaramanga]

I’m not knocking further education but I agree with Scara based on the fact anyone going to Uni should do so with a level of intelligence to attribute to their actual future. Ala becoming a Dr or someone in higher economics.

There is doubt some take courses that prolong them joining the real world because that’s how they want to live, I know I have friends who took pointless courses at Uni just to do that.

If you were of a more limited intelligence, far from thick but say average, I class myself there, I honestly don’t see the point unless it’s with the Unbiased drive to meet your end goal.

Otherwise working from bottom and moving up from 17 is a faster route to success, in my view

People vastly underestimate their earning potential without a degree IMO.

Whilst not having the highest forms of education may preclude people from some of the highest paid jobs, I know plenty who earn similar money to me who didn't have any education past O Levels.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

People vastly underestimate their earning potential without a degree IMO.

Whilst not having the highest forms of education may preclude people from some of the highest paid jobs, I know plenty who earn similar money to me who didn't have any education past O Levels.

I earned more when i was a locksmith and had guys working for me then my wife with her degree and masters has ever done. She works as a therapist helping rehabilitate criminals.

My son wants to go to university to study graphic design. Im encouraging him as he has finally started to put a bit of effort into school.

Not sure on it all but it sounds like a proper job might come at the end of it.