Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Trickle down economics is pure flimflam.
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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)
- Thread starter SpurMeUp
- Start date
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
There are plenty of reasons why, usually involving money power (note the lack of comma) impregnable socio economic structures.
And that is what is being talked about earlier in this thread - not the extremes of Communism or even deep Socialism (mentioning those really is project fear), but looking at the impacts of extreme capitalism on power and happiness, using happiness as a measure instead of just wealth.
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
And no one credible is suggesting that.
Happiness is subjective - I'll stick with measurables, I think.
You mention capitalism as if it's an alternative to socialism or communism bit that's not really accurate. It's the natural, unencumbered state of the world.
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
It's theoretical and set by humans, just as a financial value is. An emotional value is just as valuable and the value of which is determined by people. It may very well end up being the case that it becomes skewed by the selfish, in the same way that financial assets are. But it's certainly worth investigating as an alternative or complimentary measure.
Just because it's the natural state of the world, it doesn't mean the other cannot be an alternative. I don't think it's the right path, but it was you and @Danishfurniturelover that decided to use that equivalence, not me.
Indeed, happiness as a measure is likely to be just as negative under the GDR and STH Africa as under capitalism - just with different aspects contributing to poor happiness. (IE lack of freedom, lack of choice)
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
Those poor people that were found dead in the van last week. There families sent them here to earn money.
I use that as a good yard stick. What countries are people desperate to come to and what are there reasons for doing so.
As you say, capitalism, is the natural condition.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Having lived in Communist Cuba for a short time, there are some things socialism did quite well. The economy is not one of them. You need some kind of free market, with private enterprise for an economy to function well. The notion that the state could run a whole country's economy is deeply flawed (and it is not what Marx envisioned either).
What does work well in socialism, is investing in education for everyone at the highest standard possible. And that provision is equal. No leg up for anyone. You start out on a level footing. If a kid is good at a particular sport in Cuba, regardless of your background, you will get the best coaching available in the nation. Giving you a shot at becoming an elite sportsman. We don't have that here.
Communism also gave nations a collective identity. An ethical 'trickle-down effect' you might call it. Where people look out for each other, and have a greater sense of community. If you say - we're capitalist, cut-throat, winner takes all - of course that has an effect on the way people conduct their self.
The happy medium is a state that provides moral and ethical leadership, provides resources to all, so anyone can educate themselves, anyone can participate in social provisions. For example, in Cuba OAPs can do aerobics in the local square each morning - it costs the state nothing to do, but facilitates community. The happy medium is a strong state, that facilitates free enterprise. That bit we have. But with that, come extremes of wealth. Western nations need better ways to deal with such disparity. In the USA there is a billionaire tax (and expectation) where a certain proportion of income is expected to be spent on charity. I forgot the details, but such initiatives, whereby wealth people are expected to give back, seems to make sense. Those who are rich don't mind putting back, especially if they can control how.
So there are lots of things governments could do to facilitate better living. To create nations that are more collective, more sustainable, that are also wealthy. There is simply a lack of innovation in government.
What does work well in socialism, is investing in education for everyone at the highest standard possible. And that provision is equal. No leg up for anyone. You start out on a level footing. If a kid is good at a particular sport in Cuba, regardless of your background, you will get the best coaching available in the nation. Giving you a shot at becoming an elite sportsman. We don't have that here.
Communism also gave nations a collective identity. An ethical 'trickle-down effect' you might call it. Where people look out for each other, and have a greater sense of community. If you say - we're capitalist, cut-throat, winner takes all - of course that has an effect on the way people conduct their self.
The happy medium is a state that provides moral and ethical leadership, provides resources to all, so anyone can educate themselves, anyone can participate in social provisions. For example, in Cuba OAPs can do aerobics in the local square each morning - it costs the state nothing to do, but facilitates community. The happy medium is a strong state, that facilitates free enterprise. That bit we have. But with that, come extremes of wealth. Western nations need better ways to deal with such disparity. In the USA there is a billionaire tax (and expectation) where a certain proportion of income is expected to be spent on charity. I forgot the details, but such initiatives, whereby wealth people are expected to give back, seems to make sense. Those who are rich don't mind putting back, especially if they can control how.
So there are lots of things governments could do to facilitate better living. To create nations that are more collective, more sustainable, that are also wealthy. There is simply a lack of innovation in government.
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monkeybarry
Jack Jull
Yet, you still think trickle down works?
And that's part of the point, looking beyond money and at happiness (which is an output of all factors of society) can help to identify where there are issues - it may only take a small change to create happiness that stops people loading into a truck and risking their lives, rather than "chasing the money".
glorygloryeze
Tom Huddlestone
So we are still in the EU until end of January...
What chances that we still wont have an election before then?
What chances that we still wont have an election before then?
jabbathehut
Luke Young
There won't be an election until the term ends.They may as well delay brexit until then at this point in time and save everyone a lot of time.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
The Grenfell report on the fire phalanx actions is obviously needed and does not apportion the entire blame on them for the tragedy however it must stick like hell for the members of the fire phalanx that went in there that night and worked hard to try and save as many lives as they could.
From what I have read the call to remain where they were is standard procedure and would have been effective had the cladding been ok. Additionally alot of the negatives seem to me to come from years of government cuts to the service than lack of competence.
Grenfell was a tragedy, terrible, however the racism claims against the fire phalanx and now the report just don't sit well with me
From what I have read the call to remain where they were is standard procedure and would have been effective had the cladding been ok. Additionally alot of the negatives seem to me to come from years of government cuts to the service than lack of competence.
Grenfell was a tragedy, terrible, however the racism claims against the fire phalanx and now the report just don't sit well with me
StephenH
David Ginola
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Yes, the fire phalanx needs to revise its procedures and they will.
All the rest is Clapp trap.
No way will they, the Tory government, change the cladding.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Corbyn's backing means election is on
Laura Kuenssberg
Political editor
Now it is on.
The Labour leader has just issued a statement pressing the button on his election campaign.
In a couple of sentences, giving Boris Johnson the election he craves.
There may still be wrangling about the dates.
Labour and the smaller opposition parties might still have a battle with the government in Parliament this afternoon over when the best or worst time is to ask all of us to go to the ballot boxes.
But Labour has, against the wishes of many of its MPs, shifted to supporting a December election and with that, it means we are on for the first December general election in decades.
The prime minister hopes this will give him a victory at the polls that would allow him rapidly to get his Brexit deal through Parliament and the UK out of the EU.
The Labour leader hopes for a souped-up version of his move forward at the 2017 election that would mean, contrary to the view of many of his own MPs, his project can continue and build.
The Lib Dems and SNP hope for a chance to stop Brexit happening, and expand their own political positions at a junction for the country.
But none of the parties can be remotely sure of what will happen next.
An election at this time of year is unusual and surprising.
The results, when they finally come in in several weeks time, may be the same.
Take a breath though, and don't put this in your diary until the votes in Parliament to back the election have actually been counted too.
Voting is as easy as ABC. Anyone But Corbyn.
Laura Kuenssberg
Political editor
Now it is on.
The Labour leader has just issued a statement pressing the button on his election campaign.
In a couple of sentences, giving Boris Johnson the election he craves.
There may still be wrangling about the dates.
Labour and the smaller opposition parties might still have a battle with the government in Parliament this afternoon over when the best or worst time is to ask all of us to go to the ballot boxes.
But Labour has, against the wishes of many of its MPs, shifted to supporting a December election and with that, it means we are on for the first December general election in decades.
The prime minister hopes this will give him a victory at the polls that would allow him rapidly to get his Brexit deal through Parliament and the UK out of the EU.
The Labour leader hopes for a souped-up version of his move forward at the 2017 election that would mean, contrary to the view of many of his own MPs, his project can continue and build.
The Lib Dems and SNP hope for a chance to stop Brexit happening, and expand their own political positions at a junction for the country.
But none of the parties can be remotely sure of what will happen next.
An election at this time of year is unusual and surprising.
The results, when they finally come in in several weeks time, may be the same.
Take a breath though, and don't put this in your diary until the votes in Parliament to back the election have actually been counted too.
Voting is as easy as ABC. Anyone But Corbyn.
I have to break it to you but all politicians are exactly the same.
Just that different "me"s want different things for themselves.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Looks like a pre-Xmas election. What a bore. Just a way for the government to try and get a mandate to "deliver Brexit" while not actually risking asking people directly if and what kind of Brexit they want. Which means the lack of clarity and direction will likely continue post-election.
What has Brexit done to the UK? We are a joke.
What has Brexit done to the UK? We are a joke.
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
Which one of them will don the father Christmas outfit...that's the big question.