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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

SpurMeUp said:
No negotiations is what we have isn't it? o_O Everyone wants free trade. So everyone wants a deal. The idea that all is equal between the UK and EU is not true tho. The idea that it's them against us is also rubbish. The EU was built out of the ashes of war. To encourge people to trade not fight.

Your image of 'them' is wierd. The EU is a trading block at heart. All the emotional stuff about making them squirm indicates how wide of the mark you are on what the EU is and what it does. It's all emotion and no reality.
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Call it what you like, you are just bitter because the cards are not falling on the side of the deck you want them too and all your personal judgements you cast on here about individual people like myself when I talk negatively about the EU and not you is typical of the remain voice.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
You love a straw man.:D

Logic dictates (yes I am repeating myself) that there are two fair systems, regardless of the film flam you want to attach to it or emotional doo doo.

1. Everyone from anywhere can come to the UK and work and settle here as they wish with no controls.

2. Everyone from anywhere can come to the UK and be checked, screened, and apply to live and work here based on (probably) some points system.

They are both fair because they are all inclusive and non discriminatory.

What other countries want to do about immigration is up to them.
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Logic dictates immigration policy is not about ‘fairness’ to migrants. Let’s not pretend it is. The Aussie points system is about only taking people who Australia thinks they want. It’s a system that is discriminatory by design.

The more interesting question is, will Brexit deliver on its immigration promise? To answer that you have to first ascertain what it is people want. Not easy in itself. Opinion polls tell us what kind of migration people are more happy with, and this unfortunately doesn’t sit too well with Brexits direct of travel.

Baring in mind we lose rights by leaving - freedom across a continent - do you believe we will gain anything real back to make it worthwhile?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
SpurMeUp said:
Logic dictates immigration policy is not about ‘fairness’ to migrants. Let’s not pretend it is. The Aussie points system is about only taking people who Australia thinks they want. It’s a system that is discriminatory by design
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Is it discrimination? I don't have a right to Australian residency and if I went for it to work and avail of the benefits that brings and they said I did not bring enough to the table to warrant that its not discrimination, its like me bowling into HSBC without qualifications and demanding a job and them telling me to jockey on.

Also no one is looking for a closed door policy, controlled immigration is not discrimination
 
Grays_1890 said:
Call it what you like, you are just bitter because the cards are not falling on the side of the deck you want them too and all your personal judgements you cast on here about individual people like myself when I talk negatively about the EU and not you is typical of the remain voice.
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Look I guess it’s ok to be emotional. Like the master Pochettino. Apologies if I was too personal, my bad.

Brexit shouldn’t be about one side winning or losing. By definition we are in it together. Likewise it is not about ‘getting one over’ the EU. If that is how you approach it, I do understand the sentiment, but I need to understand it more. On one hand, this is not a game of football with teams. Your future wealth and prospects, and mine, and whether the UK will sink or swim are on the line. On the other there is a feeling of invasion and them against us? Where does it come from or is it based upon?

The EU - both nations in Europe and the eurocrats in Brussels - don’t have the same animosity towards us, that people clearly have in the UK towards them. Where has that come from?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
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Grays_1890 said:
Is it discrimination? I don't have a right to Australian residency and if I went for it to work and avail of the benefits that brings and they said I did not bring enough to the table to warrant that its not discrimination, its like me bowling into HSBC without qualifications and demanding a job and them telling me to jockey on.

Also no one is looking for a closed door policy, controlled immigration is not discrimination
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Yes you are *discriminating* on the basis of people’s abilities. Morally, many other people deserve a break. Or fairness my dictate you take an equal % from each country etc.

And that was the point, our migration policy is about what we want, let’s not pretend it’s about fairness to migrants.

Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
SpurMeUp said:
Logic dictates immigration policy is not about ‘fairness’ to migrants. Let’s not pretend it is. The Aussie points system is about only taking people who Australia thinks they want. It’s a system that is discriminatory by design.

The more interesting question is, will Brexit deliver on its immigration promise? To answer that you have to first ascertain what it is people want. Not easy in itself. Opinion polls tell us what kind of migration people are more happy with, and this unfortunately doesn’t sit too well with Brexits direct of travel.

Baring in mind we lose rights by leaving - freedom across a continent - do you believe we will gain anything real back to make it worthwhile?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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What are you on about. The choosing process can be fair. The idea that you're being unfair just because you are choosing one person and not another is ridiculous, as long as the process is applied to all applicants in the same way, without prejudice. What we would be doing is judging that person on their history and abilities. NOT race age colour sex gender religion nationality etc.

To be 'fair' as you suggest would be my option 1...to let everyone in as they please... which would be ridiculous, beautiful if possible, but ridiculous.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Yes you are *discriminating* on the basis of people’s abilities. Morally, many other people deserve a break. Or fairness my dictate you take an equal % from each country etc.

And that was the point, our migration policy is about what we want, let’s not pretend it’s about fairness to migrants.

Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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I think our migration policy has been very fair, the UK is there to be whacked with sticks but we are one of the most multi cultural countries in the world because of it.

Yes we have also benefitted by why not?

What would your solution be?
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
What are you on about. The choosing process can be fair. The idea that you're being unfair just because you are choosing one person and not another is ridiculous, as long as the process is applied to all applicants in the same way, without prejudice. What we would be doing is judging that person on their history and abilities. NOT race age colour sex gender religion nationality etc.

To be 'fair' as you suggest would be my option 1...to let everyone in as they please... which would be ridiculous, beautiful if possible, but ridiculous.
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Of course the process has to be consistent - we’ve not talked about that before. Is that what you refer to as a “straw man”?

Just want to be clear: are you looking out for migrants rather than the UK? Admirable. But I am genuinely confused.

If you ask the question: who is our (future) immigration policy designed for, is it setup for Britain or for aspiring migrants? The answer should illustrate whether fairness to immigrants is the key concern.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Look I guess it’s ok to be emotional. Like the master Pochettino. Apologies if I was too personal, my bad.

Brexit shouldn’t be about one side winning or losing. By definition we are in it together. Likewise it is not about ‘getting one over’ the EU. If that is how you approach it, I do understand the sentiment, but I need to understand it more. On one hand, this is not a game of football with teams. Your future wealth and prospects, and mine, and whether the UK will sink or swim are on the line. On the other there is a feeling of invasion and them against us? Where does it come from or is it based upon?

The EU - both nations in Europe and the eurocrats in Brussels - don’t have the same animosity towards us, that people clearly have in the UK towards them. Where has that come from?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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Surely though there is logic, actually based on your own arguments that the EU don't need us we need them which makes the EU exactly now what it was not intended to be?

Like for me, if countries were companies the EU would be stopped on the monopolies rule like companies for being too powerful, its why like you say they have the master hand.

Surely for the greater good that's dangerous?

And surely when a united EU which isn't a nation has to be run by someone who may well be French or German or Swiss or even English leader its open to all sorts of bias and political bias?

Like an English PM runs the UK and he has totally the UK at heart...that's impossible for the EU, there has to be bias?

I don't like the EU because it is a cartel, I know you are great at throwing all this out but that's how I feel and its not post WW2 its 2019, all the countries in the EU have the ability to thrive on their own, the threat of Nazi Germany is no longer on us.

You biggest fact in our chat today actually backs my point up, their combined power making it harder for us to leave proves that the cartel model is dangerous. Stay in for fear of not having your hands in their honey pot.

And anything the IRA loving Corbyn supports I can't
 
What's the latest view? Is Boris going to be able to negotiate anything or is it just for show now and part of another plan?
 
dingdongo said:
What's the latest view? Is Boris going to be able to negotiate anything or is it just for show now and part of another plan?
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Well the EU have always said there will be no further negotiations, and they have nothing to gain from holding further negotiations so I’d guess no one except maybe Johnson believes there will be any negotiation.

Yes. It is all part of the plan ‘flush our economy down the toilet as hard and fast as possible’.

Really I don’t think Johnson believes it can be negotiated himself at all. We’ve just accepted we will be leaving with no deal and that’s that.

We’ll just have to hope Trump wakes up on November the 1st in a good mood - otherwise we will not be trading with anyone.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Surely though there is logic, actually based on your own arguments that the EU don't need us we need them which makes the EU exactly now what it was not intended to be?

Like for me, if countries were companies the EU would be stopped on the monopolies rule like companies for being too powerful, its why like you say they have the master hand.

Surely for the greater good that's dangerous?

And surely when a united EU which isn't a nation has to be run by someone who may well be French or German or Swiss or even English leader its open to all sorts of bias and political bias?

Like an English PM runs the UK and he has totally the UK at heart...that's impossible for the EU, there has to be bias?

I don't like the EU because it is a cartel, I know you are great at throwing all this out but that's how I feel and its not post WW2 its 2019, all the countries in the EU have the ability to thrive on their own, the threat of Nazi Germany is no longer on us.

You biggest fact in our chat today actually backs my point up, their combined power making it harder for us to leave proves that the cartel model is dangerous. Stay in for fear of not having your hands in their honey pot.

And anything the IRA loving Corbyn supports I can't
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I like your arguements. How to respond...?

I think the EU was intended to be a means for Europes nations to cooperate. Especially trade. The people who founded the EU were in the most bloody of wars. They came through atrocity that is hard to appreciate, and they had to put in place something to ensure Europe was never going back to war. If the continent is trading, and making each other wealthy, then nations are working together and war is less likley. That was the greater good. To answer your question, re. danger, no EU is possibly more dangerous looked at in this light.

It is a totally valid and important question: are those original EU aims outdated?

Is a cartel that works for you a bad thing?

It's an interesting point. Becuase leaving is so difficult, it feels like they are controlling our freedom. The crucial question is freedom of what? What does "leaving" give? What does "staying" give? Leave and stay are just terms we've applied. But it is the realities - not the terminology - that determine whether you will have a better life, or more or less freedom. From my perspective the reality is you will likely have less freedom outside the EU. Becuase the EU is a cartel on your side.

Britian had an empire. As did France, Italy, Spain, Portugal...Germany tried to get one....and all these nations lost their empires. They lost the control and wealth they derived from them, more or less at the same time. These nations power over the globe was diminished. China and the US are "cartels" looking out for hundrends of millions of people. The EU nations - as a cartel - retain some of their former power. And free trade between them makes us (especially us as we are a trading nation) more wealthy.

That's not to say there aren't issues with the EU. Free movement is a big issue. Somehting that needs evolution maybe. Plenty of other EU nations have issue with it too. But free trade, a better quality of living, cooperation, greater strength becuase of it, and no war since WWII outweighs the negatives very significantly.




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I was in northern France couple of months ago. 2 hour drive to the train, drive onto it, drive into France. Didn't bother with all the D-day beaches (misses not too interested). But watched a few YouTube vids on D-day as we were so close to those beaches. All I can really say is watch a documentry about Omaha Beach and tell me it wasn't right to get europe unified, even if it is only primarily for trade.


 
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Craig_J said:
Well the EU have always said there will be no further negotiations, and they have nothing to gain from holding further negotiations so I’d guess no one except maybe Johnson believes there will be any negotiation.

Yes. It is all part of the plan ‘flush our economy down the toilet as hard and fast as possible’.

Really I don’t think Johnson believes it can be negotiated himself at all. We’ve just accepted we will be leaving with no deal and that’s that.

We’ll just have to hope Trump wakes up on November the 1st in a good mood - otherwise we will not be trading with anyone.
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Afaik Trump doesn't make the final decision on trade deals, that is congress, and they have already weighed in on the UK trade deal being a non-starter depending on how the border question is resolved.

There will be no reopening of the WA. This euro rail power trip he is on is for show in prep for an election, IMO.
 
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