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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

The fact that you laugh at his conspiracy theories but are unaware of how similar yours are is quite funny.


Tories being opposed to socialism...how is that a conspiracy? That is a fact. The Tories cannot hope to get rid of it straight out, so they are doing it by stealth, by privatization, saying it's the price for the latest new 'free market ' deal. So no, it is not a conspiracy. Thanks for the false moral equivalence argument Scara, yeah I have so much in common with a fudging Nazi.....Not!
 
Just to make it clear. Canada and the US are different systems. The Canadian system is mostly publicly-funded. The US system mostly private. The Canadian system regularly outperforms the US in terms of life stats.

You are making a further point about how the NHS has been attacked IMO. Essentially, what you would support then is proper investment in all areas of the NHS, which has been mismanaged and chipped away at by the Tories for too long.
If you genuinely believe that a shift to the US healthcare model will result in what you want with regards to pro-activity, then you'll just have to trust me (or do the research) and see you will be left sorely disappointed.

https://www.unison.org.uk/news/article/2018/04/healthconf-funding/

My main point is the NHS is brick and doesn't deserve the sacrosanct it is held in. America certainly isn't how I would replace it - rather Canada, Germany, Spain etc. have much better systems we could model its replacement on

I don't think the problem is investment - its organisation and incentives. It needs more localism (more, small hospitals) and a focus on keeping people well, not treating them when they are sick
 
D-

They are not "about" the same service. They are the same service. All internet lines apart from vigin use the same cable. So it is litterally the same service. If someone cuts the cable in the road, it doesn't matter if you're with Plustnet, BT, TalkTalk whatever, your internet goes off.
Tell someone who has been on the phone to Sky mobile or Broadband support that the service is the same as GiffGaff or Plusnet. The services are absolutely not the same. Try being a Sky customer when some spotty kid wonders why they need DNS servers and switches them off. Swap in a BT router for a Sky one and see what happens to your mesh network. They are absolutely not the same service - people can and so switch providers all the time because of it

E-

If the UK Exchequer recieved the £2.8 billion profits instead of BT's shareholders, it is simple arithmetic to see that taxes could be reduced by the same amount. Or are you suggesting the goverment doesn't need to spend any money at all? You are a hoot.
I'm pointing out the very simple principle that all money cycled through the Exchequer dwindles to zero over time. It is far more efficient for the Exchequer not to receive money and not to spend money than the opposite. The Exchequer isn't frictionless, it can't spend £1.00 for every £1.00 in tax. Every time you cycle money through taxation some "leaks"

Giving a tax break is better than not, but not having the income or expenditure is better.

Again, rather than use your own logic, you fall back on things that were taught to you. If you're restricted to economics 101 from the book, you'll never think for yourself.

Economies need competition and free enterprise. That is obvious. No one is suggesting communism with the state running companies. If you seperated government from a given publicly owned industry and simply had the Exchequer as a passive share holder (aka us) then let these companies behave exactly like they do now as private entities. The people get the dividends, and benifit from competition where there is actually competition. True competion doesn't exist with water utility companies or BT. They are monopoly players. Why not have them paying us, rather than paying unknown shareholders who are often taking moeny out of the nation?
The taxpayer and the Exchequer can't act like shareholders. What happens when demand for tickets drops? At whose cost is the wages in perpetuity of the unionised staff that refuse to let the owners flex staff with requirements? How does the Exchequer derisk by selling some of its shares in an uncertain industry? When those businesses take the necessary decisions that laypersons rarely understand, which MP falls on their sword? Where is the incentive for the next MP with their head on the block to make those decisions?

I'm not stopping at Economics 101, I'm taking baby steps with you. When you reach 101 then we'll move on to 102, etc.
 
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So he didn't benchmark against a competitor. The point of benchmarking in the private sector is to where you sit in the industry sector and set price etc accordingly.

The railways are a network, not a set of comparable products. A nationalisation would still see a set of distinct routes, which could be benchmarked against in the same as you can now. The difference is it would run purely as a public service and not to make profit for a few people. Granted the profit margins are small and generally restricted, but there is still little benefit to the model.
If the leases have expiry dates then there are competitors. At each renewal, those bidding for the franchise must be able to deliver more to the government whilst still making a profit.

If improvement in service and reduction in delays really are the aims of the government, then making strikes and union membership illegal would go a very long way.
 
Tories being opposed to socialism...how is that a conspiracy? That is a fact. The Tories cannot hope to get rid of it straight out, so they are doing it by stealth, by privatization, saying it's the price for the latest new 'free market ' deal. So no, it is not a conspiracy. Thanks for the false moral equivalence argument Scara, yeah I have so much in common with a fudging Nazi.....Not!
I didn't make a value judgment on the causes behind your conspiracy theories. I simply pointed out that "The Jews are all out to get us" is no more sound a thought basis than "The rich are all out to get us"
 
Tell someone who has been on the phone to Sky mobile or Broadband support that the service is the same as GiffGaff or Plusnet. The services are absolutely not the same. Try being a Sky customer when some spotty kid wonders why they need DNS servers and switches them off. Swap in a BT router for a Sky one and see what happens to your mesh network. They are absolutely not the same service - people can and so switch providers all the time because of it

People (well I hope they do) switch all the time because when you're deal ends you get put on some ridiculous inflated price, so you look around for some crazy 12/18 month new deal that has an equally crazy lump of cashback or free pre loaded credit card that reduces your monthly payment to barely noticeable. The 3 providers I have used have all been decent...decent in a way that means nothings gone wrong and the speed has pretty much been what the line can handle.

The smoothed out process of switching has made this a no brainer.
 
The state doesn't have to stop being a customer to open up the market, it simply has to stop being a provider.

I'd say the most hotly contested part of the market in a few education system would be the bottom price point. This is where most customers would be, this is where most providers would be.

That level of competition would lead to far greater efficiencies, innovation, etc. Currently all the shot state schools try to emulate the good private ones. In a purely private system, the best work would likely come from the poorer end of the scale.

As for government budgets, you're looking at this all wrong. It's not your fault, this has been ingrained into you by successive militant socialist Labour party officials. More money does not equal a better service. If one has a broken hose pipe, opening the tap more will only increase the volume of water tinkled out the leak.

I agree, more money does not equal a better service. However, meeting the minimum requirements for an efficient service as projected versus dirty, cheap under-cutting from the private sector with the inevitable back-handers and “incentives” to take the “deal” most certainly impacts the quality of service. As we see. On a daily basis. It isn’t your fault you cannot see it, your beliefs have been ingrained into you by successive militant selfish ultra-capitalist Tories (you know, the same ones who arrogantly thought they could solve their own party mess by using Brexit as a gambling tool).

Your private school system requires a lot more explanation.

I think essentially you have a deep distrust of central government. I cannot blame you. Successive leaderships have been fudging terrible, and the current world climate has been manipulated to leave anything remotely “socially minded” looking like the work of “commies”. Of course it isn’t true, any more than it isn’t true to say that all capitalism ends up in economic dictatorship which condemns 80% to make ends meet whilst 20% live richer than ever. The polarization and lack of middle ground is madness. Sad times.
 
People (well I hope they do) switch all the time because when you're deal ends you get put on some ridiculous inflated price, so you look around for some crazy 12/18 month new deal that has an equally crazy lump of cashback or free pre loaded credit card that reduces your monthly payment to barely noticeable. The 3 providers I have used have all been decent...decent in a way that means nothings gone wrong and the speed has pretty much been what the line can handle.

The smoothed out process of switching has made this a no brainer.
I don't think the price is inflated after the initial contract, the loss leader set up for new customers simply ends.

Some might move for price, I value the ability of the support staff to put me through to the organ grinder when something goes wrong. I'll happily pay more to not be treated like some depart and have to go through the "which lights are flashing on your router" flimflam and use all that spare time however I wish.
 
My main point is the NHS is brick and doesn't deserve the sacrosanct it is held in. America certainly isn't how I would replace it - rather Canada, Germany, Spain etc. have much better systems we could model its replacement on

I don't think the problem is investment - its organisation and incentives. It needs more localism (more, small hospitals) and a focus on keeping people well, not treating them when they are sick

I think your last point is very true, however that is where an increasingly uneducated and polarized population does not help. No health service can force regular preventative care on people. That comes down to individuals. In fact, I have seen more push to promote preventative care than ever. I agree that localism is important, small facilities which take care of those in remote areas unable to make big journeys. It is why I think the NHS needs to receive the appropriate amount of funding in order to maintain its efficiency. If Brexit happens, people will see what a total disaster it will prove to be for the NHS.

Finally, the NHS does deserve the sacrosanct it is held in as a model which has been highly effective in the past. It has had the brick kicked out of it the last decade+. It is time ot was supported again.

To be clear, I agree with you, Scara and Nayim
when you say pumping money aimlessly is a route to further disaster. What I want is a level of investment in the NHS which is requires for it to provide the service it has done in the past, and with the successive cuts to funding it has suffered in the last couple of decades, I believe it is sorely under-funded. IF I was conspiratorial, I would say it is so as advocates of private medicine can tell everyone how poor the service has become. But I try to avoid such quicksands.

I can never, ever agree that a system which helped my Mum beat cancer twice, and continues to keep her alive despite a battery of connected ailments, is brick.
 
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I agree, more money does not equal a better service. However, meeting the minimum requirements for an efficient service as projected versus dirty, cheap under-cutting from the private sector with the inevitable back-handers and “incentives” to take the “deal” most certainly impacts the quality of service. As we see. On a daily basis. It isn’t your fault you cannot see it, your beliefs have been ingrained into you by successive militant selfish ultra-capitalist Tories (you know, the same ones who arrogantly thought they could solve their own party mess by using Brexit as a gambling tool).

Your private school system requires a lot more explanation.

I think essentially you have a deep distrust of central government. I cannot blame you. Successive leaderships have been fudging terrible, and the current world climate has been manipulated to leave anything remotely “socially minded” looking like the work of “commies”. Of course it isn’t true, any more than it isn’t true to say that all capitalism ends up in economic dictatorship which condemns 80% to make ends meet whilst 20% live richer than ever. The polarization and lack of middle ground is madness. Sad times.
It's a simple concept really.

I want as many services as possible to be provided by the private sector, with no public interference. I also understand that not everyone can afford private services, so those who absolutely cannot will be covered (in cost and not provision) by the state. So everyone gets to benefit from the substantially better private services, but the government covers the cost if they cannot pay. It's a bit like Obamacare but for as many services as possible. Private services with a provision for state funding when required.

As with similar systems, like healthcare in Germany, paying into private health insurance or education immunises one from the government's sticky fingers to the tune of the basic provision amount.

I don't trust the government as a provider because, throughout history, governments have shown themselves to be thoroughly incapable of being efficient service providers. I've listed plenty of reasons above. My method ensures that those who cannot (not will not) provide for themselves have access to the best, but doesn't penalise the successful or take away choice from the consumer.

I think a very important measure of any system is value for money. I spend significantly more on taxation for the NHS than I do on private health insurance, yet the standard of care is significantly worse. When my son is old enough to go to a private school then that's where he'll go. But I'll be spending a large chunk of what I'd spend on his education on bricky state schools I'd never let him attend. That can't continue. People cannot keep feeling that they are not being delivered any value for their money.
 
I don't think the price is inflated after the initial contract, the loss leader set up for new customers simply ends.

Some might move for price, I value the ability of the support staff to put me through to the organ grinder when something goes wrong. I'll happily pay more to not be treated like some retread and have to go through the "which lights are flashing on your router" flimflam and use all that spare time however I wish.
I think it's wishful thinking to consider any tech department competent.

Even if you stick with the same provider you must give them a call when your current contract ends?? Or do you find them reassuringly expensive?
 
It's a simple concept really.

I want as many services as possible to be provided by the private sector, with no public interference. I also understand that not everyone can afford private services, so those who absolutely cannot will be covered (in cost and not provision) by the state. So everyone gets to benefit from the substantially better private services, but the government covers the cost if they cannot pay. It's a bit like Obamacare but for as many services as possible. Private services with a provision for state funding when required.

As with similar systems, like healthcare in Germany, paying into private health insurance or education immunises one from the government's sticky fingers to the tune of the basic provision amount.

I don't trust the government as a provider because, throughout history, governments have shown themselves to be thoroughly incapable of being efficient service providers. I've listed plenty of reasons above. My method ensures that those who cannot (not will not) provide for themselves have access to the best, but doesn't penalise the successful or take away choice from the consumer.

I think a very important measure of any system is value for money. I spend significantly more on taxation for the NHS than I do on private health insurance, yet the standard of care is significantly worse. When my son is old enough to go to a private school then that's where he'll go. But I'll be spending a large chunk of what I'd spend on his education on bricky state schools I'd never let him attend. That can't continue. People cannot keep feeling that they are not being delivered any value for their money.


In fairness, that is probably the best articulation of your personal stance and POV I have read (from you). It is not a million miles from where I stand. I have no objection whatsoever to those who can afford private care and private education having the choice to take that path. Where my issues begin, is when I see purposeful lack of reinvestment and lack of funding for national and social programs which are (seemingly) designed to make them such poor options that private becomes the only option for anyone requiring even the most basic of services.I somewhat understand your mistrust of government, but equally I feel similar mistrust of the private sector handling "public" services as profit margin supersedes all.
 
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I think it's wishful thinking to consider any tech department competent.

Even if you stick with the same provider you must give them a call when your current contract ends?? Or do you find them reassuringly expensive?
The difference is negligible. My wife swaps utility providers, but with telecoms we just stick to the good ones.

Never had Sky or Virgin in the past due to living in listed buildings, so I guess I'll let you know about that when our contract ends.
 
In fairness, that is probably the best articulation of your personal stance and POV I have read (from you). It is not a million miles from where I stand. I have no objection whatsoever to those who can afford private care and private education having the choice to take that path. Where my issues begin, is when I see purposeful reinvestment and lack of funding for national and social programs which are (seemingly) designed to make them such poor options that private becomes the only option for anyone requiring even the most basic of services.I somewhat understand your mistrust of government, but equally I feel similar mistrust of the private sector handling "public" services as profit margin supersedes all.
The beauty of a properly free market is that the needs of the shareholders are best met by providing what the customer wants at a price the customer can afford.
 
Tell someone who has been on the phone to Sky mobile or Broadband support that the service is the same as GiffGaff or Plusnet. The services are absolutely not the same. Try being a Sky customer when some spotty kid wonders why they need DNS servers and switches them off. Swap in a BT router for a Sky one and see what happens to your mesh network. They are absolutely not the same service - people can and so switch providers all the time because of it


I'm pointing out the very simple principle that all money cycled through the Exchequer dwindles to zero over time. It is far more efficient for the Exchequer not to receive money and not to spend money than the opposite. The Exchequer isn't frictionless, it can't spend £1.00 for every £1.00 in tax. Every time you cycle money through taxation some "leaks"

Giving a tax break is better than not, but not having the income or expenditure is better.


The taxpayer and the Exchequer can't act like shareholders. What happens when demand for tickets drops? At whose cost is the wages in perpetuity of the unionised staff that refuse to let the owners flex staff with requirements? How does the Exchequer derisk by selling some of its shares in an uncertain industry? When those businesses take the necessary decisions that laypersons rarely understand, which MP falls on their sword? Where is the incentive for the next MP with their head on the block to make those decisions?

I'm not stopping at Economics 101, I'm taking baby steps with you. When you reach 101 then we'll move on to 102, etc.

Clutching at straws. Call centre quality does not equal true competition and you know it! It's like saying selling the same car, with a speed limitor and different call centre for different brands, equals competition. Of course its still the same car.

If the BT owned and run local exchange catches fire - which happened outside my office - all services go down. Sky, Plusnet whoever can not send out their engineers to fix it. They don't have any engineers. Everyone but everyone has to wait for BT to get out there and rewire the box before services resume. Meanwhile BT have no effective competition for this core infrastructure, can take their time sending out someone to fix the exchange, and they make billions from it.

I appreciate there is some superficial competition. But you wouldn't call it a true free market. And Water is 101% a private monopoly. There is not even superficial competition. What then happens with all these private utility companies is a dance with the regulator, who is invariably a few steps behind the private profiteering company.

Trying to suggest that the Exchequer being a shareholder of say Thames Water or BT is ineffecient because there is some admin costs or whatever is again really stretching the point. Is that the best you could do? Wherever money flows there will costs associated. If government is wasteful (it is) then improve it. Make it less so.

Your questions are all answerable. For something like a Water Utility, demand won't drop! It makes no odds to wages that the Exchhequer is the benifictor, the company can still operate like any private industry (in one model, probably the best model). No MPs fall on their sword, because you would have a CEO running say Thames Water just like you have now. Like the BoE, government should be completely seperate from the external organisation's opperations. An MP has to serve their constituency why would an MP be involved in running a utility company? Suprised that you'd raise all these points when it is obvious they wouldn't impede anything.

If you are interested, the regulatory system that pretends to control these utility companies is inherently dysfunctional. The setup created under Thatcher has a duty to make sure companies have enough money to function, but also that consumers are not exploited. But that is contradictory. The fundamental premise of regulation is flawed therefore. And its ironic that more and more regulation is the supposed answer to utility privitisation. This is supposed to make thigns free of control and let the market decide? The reality is there isn't true competition in these sectors. And evidence from all over the world indicates that risk of delivery has not been passed onto the private sector (eg Thames Water super sewer is being paid for by a levy on Londer's bills). In the main these private companies are cash cows for those who managed to get their hands on the country's assets. Just check this out to listen to how abused the system is, how regulation doesn't work and how profit comes at our expense: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b0931hl5

Various studies have shown that consumer's bills reduce under state owned utilities with no negative effect on quality. But why not evolve the current setup? With superficial competition where possible but with the Exchequer the passive shareholder of the core monolopy. The CEO and managment of these monolopy companies can still take home bonuses for making more profit, you could also add a metric for customer satisfaction, but the money comes back to us. The cash doesn't leave the contry, and helps to reduce taxes.

We could have an opt out, so people who have ideological problems with such a setup, don't get a tax rebate from such profits. Which would be just like now. What would you choose, to take the tax rebate or decline?
 
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I'm loving the Tory drugs bragging contest.

I don't really trust people who haven't experimented a bit, so quite a few of them have gone up in my estimation this week.

I'm now waiting for javid to leak a picture of himself gurning at a acid house rave
 
I didn't make a value judgment on the causes behind your conspiracy theories. I simply pointed out that "The Jews are all out to get us" is no more sound a thought basis than "The rich are all out to get us"

The rich are not out to get us, they are just keen to reduce as much spent by them on ordinary people as possible and if that means grinding the NHS back around the edges instead of a full frontal assault, then they will do it. As I said before that is no conspiracy. Tories hate socialist medicine with a passion, as you well know.
 
The beauty of a properly free market is that the needs of the shareholders are best met by providing what the customer wants at a price the customer can afford.

In theory it should absolutely be this way.
In modern practice, quite often the shareholders squeeze the brick out of their investment, maximizing profit margins to the detriment of decent service until the game is up, the company goes bankrupt and said shareholders reinvest their huge profit-margin takings into another "opportunity".
Most disturbingly of all, many private companies these days operate with such aggression that they become monopolies, ensuring they can absolutely serve the shareholders first with the standards of service allowed to dip way beyond reasonably acceptable. In the US, PG&E is a fine example (Pacific Gas & Electric).
I think it is fair to say that there are no middle grounds anywhere anymore, which ends up shafting everything...
 
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