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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

No I just look at the - all be it circumstantial - evidence myself and draw my own conclusions. I look at the real meetings with Russian government agents. The verified emails offering sweetheart deals on gold mines. The amount of money Banks made from the sale of his company (relatively little). And the totally disproportionate donations making him the UK biggest ever political donor….and I draw my own conclusions. I also speak to people who have some knowledge of these things and they tell me that through off shore accounts it is widely accepted that Russian money funded Banks huge support of Leave. Just because it can’t be proven with a direct bank transfer from the Kremlin doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. And with the very blatant smoking guns of meetings, emails and financial logic, you can draw your own conclusions too.
Circumstantial evidence is still evidence. Most criminal convictions are based on weight of circumstantial evidence (that on its own isn't very suspect but taken together presents an overwhelming picture of guilt). As I've stated, if the NCA had investigated and said there was insufficient evidence to prove the allegations, the allegations would have potentially rumbled on at a civil level. The NCA didn't do that, they used very clear and strong language in dismissing the allegations. They stated that they found "no evidence" of foreign involvement, foreign financing, any breach of electoral rules nor any other wrong doing. There was no smoking gun and there wasn't even any confirmed circumstantial evidence that would support any of the allegations in any way. So what you're doing is basically pedalling stuff from people that have been proven by the most prestigious, well resourced anc powerful law enforcement agency in the country and in a court of law to be a pack of gonads as "evidence" when it isn't. It's like the people that hang on videos of the flag moving and dodgy analysis of shadows as evidence that the moon landings are fake. I know nothing i will say or show to those people will convince them otherwise. And likewise nothing I will say or show to you or anyone else that believes it will convince you that Leave EU and the leave campaign and Banks were paid by the Kremlin to brainwash everyone and I and 17 million + others voted like zombies because I saw a Russian ad on Facebook once and not because I'd built an opinion up over years and wasn't actually that bothered but having been asked the question by my own Prime Minister thought I'd best give my answer and expected that a majority of whatever answers were given in that context to be respected and acted upon.
 
Circumstantial evidence is still evidence. Most criminal convictions are based on weight of circumstantial evidence (that on its own isn't very suspect but taken together presents an overwhelming picture of guilt). As I've stated, if the NCA had investigated and said there was insufficient evidence to prove the allegations, the allegations would have potentially rumbled on at a civil level. The NCA didn't do that, they used very clear and strong language in dismissing the allegations. They stated that they found "no evidence" of foreign involvement, foreign financing, any breach of electoral rules nor any other wrong doing. There was no smoking gun and there wasn't even any confirmed circumstantial evidence that would support any of the allegations in any way. So what you're doing is basically pedalling stuff from people that have been proven by the most prestigious, well resourced anc powerful law
…firm. Evidence presented by the best lawyers money can buy. Verses a journalist who can’t afford a 35k fine. I should imagine Banks lawyers charge that a day!
enforcement agency in the country and in a court of law to be a pack of gonads as "evidence" when it isn't. It's like the people that hang on videos of the flag moving and dodgy analysis of shadows as evidence that the moon landings are fake.
Are you suggesting Banks didn’t meet with the Russian ambassador? He initially maintained this was the only meeting with Russian officials. Then when exposed he admitted to a number more. And a paper had evidence of there being at least 11 meetings. Banks being recorded with an expelled Russian spy did not occur either? This was fabricated?

And all the papers that printed the story about sweetheart deals for gold and diamond mines that came via his person emails (leaked by his biographer I believe?) were fabricated? The papers were not sued for libel curiously.

Bank’s use of the classic kleptocrat SLAP was of course targeted at a journalist who wouldn’t have the resources to defend herself. His actions taking out this SLAP is roundly accepted to be an abuse of our legal system.
I know nothing i will say or show to those people will convince them otherwise.
Just tell me if the above evidence is true and what you think of it. Surely Banks would have sued the newspapers that printed these stories (all did) if they are false.
And likewise nothing I will say or show to you or anyone else that believes it will convince you that Leave EU and the leave campaign and Banks were paid by the Kremlin to brainwash everyone and I and 17 million + others voted like zombies
What has people voting have to do with anything we are discussing? Off piste a little old bean. And suggests your fervance on this topic relates to your brexit views. An example of how ideology overpowers logical reasoning and impairs us from making reasons evaluations.
because I saw a Russian ad on Facebook once and not because I'd built an opinion up over years and wasn't actually that bothered but having been asked the question by my own Prime Minister thought I'd best give my answer and expected that a majority of whatever answers were given in that context to be respected and acted upon.

No one suggests anti-EU sentiment wasn’t real. No one suggested those that voted for Brexit were somehow duped. That you took it this way maybe highlights a soreness around the subject on your behalf. I certainly think no less of you for voting to leave and feeling passionate about it. The leave vote was a positive one. An ambitious move. Sadly backed by little substance, but the aspirations and patriotism I fully respect. 🫡 that it delivered so little is a crying shame. But we won’t get sidetracked. It’s yesterdays lament ☺️
 
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…firm. Evidence presented by the best lawyers money can buy. Verses a journalist who can’t afford a 35k fine. I should imagine Banks lawyers charge that a day!

Are you suggesting Banks didn’t meet with the Russian ambassador? He said mutually claimed this was the only meeting with Russian officials. Then when exposed he admitted to a number more. And a paper had evidence of there being ant least 11 meetings. His meeting with an expelled Russian spy did not occur?

And all the papers that printed the story about sweetheart deals for gold and diamond mines were not sued for libel either.

Bank’s use of the classic kleptocrat SLAP was of course targeted at a journalist who wouldn’t have the resources to defend there self. It no is roundly accepted to be an abuse of law.

Just tell if the above evidence is true and what you think of it. Surely Banks would have sued the newspapers that printed these stories (all did) if they are false.

What has people voting have to do with anything we are discussing? Off piste a little old bean. And suggests your fervance on this topic relates to your brexit views over anything else. Another example of how ideology overpowers logic.


No one suggests anti-EU sentiment wasn’t real. No one suggested those that voted for Brexit were somehow duped. That you took it this way maybe highlights a soreness around the subject on your behalf. I certainly think no less of you for voting to leave and feeling passionate about it. The leave vote was a positive one. An ambitious move. Sadly backed by little substance, but the aspirations and patriotism I fully respect. 🫡 that it delivered so little is a crying shame. But we won’t get sidetracked. It’s yesterdays lament ☺️
I don't understand how many times I have to say this, it is not my opinion that there was no evidence of the allegations you are repeating, nor is it anything to do with "the best lawyers money can buy":

The NCA, a force with considerable international reach and considerable power to trace financial flows internationally investigated all of the stuff put forward and found that there was no evidence that supported any of the allegations. The NCA are not the best lawyers money can buy, nor are they actually lawyers. Nor was Banks' defamation a SLAP case. A SLAP case is a case brought without legal merit by someone that can.afford to lose against someone that cannot afford to lose in the calculation that threat alone will silence the target. Cadwalladher's own legal team right from the beginning never attempted to argue that she was telling the truth, nor that her claims were reasonable. They attempted a novel approach to attempt to get their client out of a hole she'd dug herself and succeeded at first with their "echo chamber" defence. However not only did they fail at appeal, ironically the fact she initially succeeded by successfully confusing the first court meant that the legal costs she was eventually ordered to pay almost trebled. If she'd lost the initial case she'd have been looking at £400K odd. Getting taken to appeal and losing ramped it up to £1.2 million. Banks won and his case had obvious legal merit right from the beginning therefore wasn't a SLAPP case
 
I don't understand how many times I have to say this, it is not my opinion
I’m asking your opinion. That you won’t consider the evidence that is publicly available tells its own tale.
that there was no evidence of the allegations you are repeating, nor is it anything to do with "the best lawyers money can buy":
You can’t understand how expensive lawyers can manipulate justice? Never heard of OJ Simpson, and you believe he didn’t kill his wife?
The NCA, a force with considerable international reach and considerable power to trace financial flows internationally
What powers are these you talk about? They are not able to look at records of sovereign off shore nations. They have - excuse my French - fuk all power and reach.

investigated all of the stuff put forward and found that there was no evidence that supported any of the allegations.
Yes because they don’t find the transfer from the Kremlin to Banks. Big deal.
The NCA are not the best lawyers money can buy, nor are they actually lawyers. Nor was Banks' defamation a SLAP case. A SLAP case is a case brought without legal merit by someone that can.afford to lose against someone that cannot afford to lose in the calculation that threat alone will silence the target.

You are losing credibility now. Nineteen
separate organisations believe his action to be just that:

https://rsf.org/en/nineteen-organis...pport-carole-cadwalladr-she-faces-slapp-trial

Cadwalladher's own legal team right from the beginning never attempted to argue that she was telling the truth, nor that her claims were reasonable.

There is no doubt in my mind, had she had Banks 35k a day law firm they’d have got her acquitted in no time.

They attempted a novel approach to attempt to get their client out of a hole she'd dug herself and succeeded at first with their "echo chamber" defence. However not only did they fail at appeal, ironically the fact she initially succeeded by successfully confusing the first court meant that the legal costs she was eventually ordered to pay almost trebled. If she'd lost the initial case she'd have been looking at £400K odd. Getting taken to appeal and losing ramped it up to £1.2 million. Banks won and his case had obvious legal merit right from the beginning therefore wasn't a SLAPP case

See above.

Why the fuk would you sue someone as an individual unless you were looking to outspend them!!? Banks could have sued the Guardian. He didn’t.
 
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I’m asking your opinion. That you won’t consider the evidence that is publicly available tells its own tale.

You can’t understand how expensive lawyer can manipulate justice? Never heard of OJ Simpson, and you believe he didn’t kill his wife?

What powers are these you talk about? They are not able to look at records of sovereign off shore nations. They have - excuse my French - fuk all power and reach.

Yes because they don’t find the transfer from the Kremlin to Banks. Big deal.
The NCA are not the best lawyers money can buy, nor are they actually lawyers. Nor was Banks' defamation a SLAP case. A SLAP case is a case brought without legal merit by someone that can.afford to lose against someone that cannot afford to lose in the calculation that threat alone will silence the target.
You are losing credibility now. Nineteen separate organisations believe his action to be just that:

https://rsf.org/en/nineteen-organis...pport-carole-cadwalladr-she-faces-slapp-trial

Cadwalladher's own legal team right from the beginning never attempted to argue that she was telling the truth, nor that her claims were reasonable.

There is no doubt in my mind, had she had Banks 35k a day law firm they’d have got her acquitted in no time.

They attempted a novel approach to attempt to get their client out of a hole she'd dug herself and succeeded at first with their "echo chamber" defence. However not only did they fail at appeal, ironically the fact she initially succeeded by successfully confusing the first court meant that the legal costs she was eventually ordered to pay almost trebled. If she'd lost the initial case she'd have been looking at £400K odd. Getting taken to appeal and losing ramped it up to £1.2 million. Banks won and his case had obvious legal merit right from the beginning therefore wasn't a SLAPP case

See above.

Why the fuk would you sue someone as an individual unless you were looking to outspend them!!? Bank could have sued the Guardian. He didn’t.
The NCA investigate "level 3" criminality. Which is cross-border in nature. They use "international letters of request" to request investigations by foreign FIUs where necessary and within the UK have the powers of a police constable, an immigration officer and a customs officer (triple warranted). The NCA station an officer in every British embassy overseas.

One of the key powers the NCA have is to issue a POCA production order on a UK bank to provide details it holds on financial movements.

UK banks are required under Funds Transfer Regulation to obtain verified details on the payer of cross border transfers and if this detail isnt provided by the originating bank or any intermediary banks in the payment chain they must either reject the funds transfer or pend it while they seek the relevant information on the funds transfer. They are required by the UK money laundering regulations to retain this information for a minimum.of 5 years and produce it on request to law enforcement.

if law enforcement want further information they can ask the UK bank to make the investigation on their behalf, which may be easier than an international letter of request. The UK bank will send a SWIFT enquiry message to the foreign banks involved in the payment chain to attempt to obtain any further information on the source of the payment and people involved. The UK bank will already know the original country the funds came from as SWIFT messages will record all the banks involved in the payment chain including the BIC and IBAN of the originating institution.

In the case in question, Leave EU funding came in the form of loans made to an English company that administered the Leave EU campaign. The source of the loans was indeed an "offshore" company, in the isle of man. Cadwallader claimed that Banks was not as declared in the electoral return the true originating sources of the loans but that the loans were funded by a third party. These concerns were also shared by the Electoral Commission, who referred the matter to the NCA in a public statement. The NCA accessed and assessed banking transaction data and company filings in the Isle of Man that the EC did not have access to and did not therefore form part of their investigation. They found that Banks was the sole director and owner of the isle of man company and that assets held by that company were derived from Banks' legitimate business dealings. They found that Banks had instructed his isle of man company to provide a loan to the administrative company of Leave EU to fund the campaign, which he was entitled to do and did not breach electoral rules. They found the funds were routed via a third party company as Cadwalladher and the EC suspected but that Banks was also the sole director and owner of this company which was a service company that administered financial transactions across his various business holdings and that the funds from the isle of man company.were not intermingled with funds from any other party but were transferred directly to the UK company administering the Leave EU campaign. They found no evidence of any third party funding or of any.wrong doing. This is all in the NCA statement of findings.

Banks had threatened to sue the Electoral Commission for defamation due to the public statements it had put on its website citing their concerns and the NCA referral and after the NCA investigation announcement the EC came to an out of court settlement with Banks which included agreeing to remove their press releases making the allegations.

The Guardian was initially party to Banks' defamation however successfully argued their article (published prior to the NCA findings) was, while subsequently found to be untrue, was in the public interest at the time).

The problem for Cadwalladher is she continued to maintain the claims on her own social media accounts and in a Ted Talk published globally AFTER the NCA investigation had established the claims to be false.

FYI, I was wrong.previousky about the appeal court not awarding damages. The court of appeal judgement was that she:
- Issue a public apology to Banks
- delete all social media posts and other public content making the allegations
- Pay Banks £35K in damages
- Pay Banks legal costs of £1.2 million

As to the question of what would have happened if Cadwalladher had better lawyers? I think they'd have advised her to settle out of court in the tens of thousands from the get go rather than trying a novel but risky legal gambit which even if it first succeeded had a high chance of being overturned on appeal and incurring costs that would bankrupt their client.

Basically, she was Apollo Creed getting f***ed in the ring by Ivan Drago and her lawyers were the trainer that decided to hold the towel like a dumbass watching their client get killed rather than chuck it in the ring and end the fight early.
 
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The NCA investigate "level 3" criminality. Which is cross-border in nature. They use "international letters of request" to request investigations by foreign FIUs where necessary and within the UK have the powers of a police constable, an immigration officer and a customs officer (triple warranted). The NCA station an officer in every British embassy overseas.

One of the key powers the NCA have is to issue a POCA production order on a UK bank to provide details it holds on financial movements.

UK banks are required under Funds Transfer Regulation to obtain verified details on the payer of cross border transfers and if this detail isnt provided by the originating bank or any intermediary banks in the payment chain they must either reject the funds transfer or pend it while they seek the relevant information on the funds transfer. They are required by the UK money laundering regulations to retain this information for a minimum.of 5 years and produce it on request to law enforcement.

if law enforcement want further information they can ask the UK bank to make the investigation on their behalf, which may be easier than an international letter of request. The UK bank will send a SWIFT enquiry message to the foreign banks involved in the payment chain to attempt to obtain any further information on the source of the payment and people involved. The UK bank will already know the original country the funds came from as SWIFT messages will record all the banks involved in the payment chain including the BIC and IBAN of the originating institution.
I think all you’ve confirmed is they have no ability to track funds off shore. Webs of companies and bank accounts routed through island nation tax heavens that are private and not under uk jurisdiction mean the NCA can’t penetrate far.
In the case in question, Leave EU funding came in the form of loans made to an English company that administered the Leave EU campaign. The source of the loans was indeed an "offshore" company, in the isle of man. Cadwallader claimed that Banks was not as declared in the electoral return the true originating sources of the loans but that the loans were funded by a third party. These concerns were also shared by the Electoral Commission, who referred the matter to the NCA in a public statement. The NCA accessed and assessed banking transaction data and company filings in the Isle of Man that the EC did not have access to and did not therefore form part of their investigation. They found that Banks was the sole director and owner of the isle of man company and that assets held by that company were derived from Banks' legitimate business dealings.
“You fund Leave with the cash you have on the Isle of Man. We’ll sell you this gold mine in a separate transaction. Someone else will buy your shares in some other South African mine and you’ll keep the cash in the Cayman Islands well clear of the NCA.” Etcetera etcetera.

This is just a made up example. There are countless ways to obfuscate and hide the transaction. That we have black and white confirmed emails offering Banks a Russian gold mine and other offering a Simon mine, from actors working or connected to the Russia state should give you all the evidence you need.

…unless you have a chip on your shoulder about Brexit.
They found that Banks had instructed his isle of man company to provide a loan to the administrative company of Leave EU to fund the campaign, which he was entitled to do and did not breach electoral rules. They found the funds were routed via a third party company as Cadwalladher and the EC suspected but that Banks was also the sole director and owner of this company which was a service company that administered financial transactions across his various business holdings and that the funds from the isle of man company.were not intermingled with funds from any other party but were transferred directly to the UK company administering the Leave EU campaign. They found no evidence of any third party funding or of any.wrong doing.
This is all in the NCA statement of findings.

Banks had threatened to sue the Electoral Commission for defamation due to the public statements it had put on its website citing their concerns and the NCA referral and after the NCA investigation announcement the EC came to an out of court settlement with Banks which included agreeing to remove their press releases making the allegations.
Great if you have well paid lawyers you can bully official bodies as well as individual journalists.
The Guardian was initially party to Banks' defamation however successfully argued their article (published prior to the NCA findings) was, while subsequently found to be untrue, was in the public interest at the time).

The problem for Cadwalladher is she continued to maintain the claims on her own social media accounts and in a Ted Talk published globally AFTER the NCA investigation had established the claims to be false.

FYI, I was wrong.previousky about the appeal court not awarding damages. The court of appeal judgement was that she:
- Issue a public apology to Banks
- delete all social media posts and other public content making the allegations
- Pay Banks £35K in damages
- Pay Banks legal costs of £1.2 million

As to the question of what would have happened if Cadwalladher had better lawyers? I think they'd have advised her to settle out of court in the tens of thousands from the get go rather than trying a novel but risky legal gambit which even if it first succeeded had a high chance of being overturned on appeal and incurring costs that would bankrupt their client.

Basically, she was Apollo Creed getting f***ed in the ring by Ivan Drago and her lawyers were the trainer that decided to hold the towel like a dumbass watching their client get killed rather than chuck it in the ring and end the fight early.

So after all of this, looking at the circumstantal evidence, what is your personal opinion, do you think Banks had connections with the Russian state?

And why would the Kremlin offer Banks sweetheart business deals? They thought he was a nice guy?
 
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I think all you’ve confirmed is they have no ability to track funds off shore. Webs of companies and bank accounts routed through island nation tax heavens that are private and not under uk jurisdiction mean the NCA can’t penetrate far.

“You fund Leave with the cash you have on the Isle of Man. We’ll sell you this gold mine in a separate transaction. Someone else will buy your shares in some other South African mine and you’ll keep the cash in the Cayman Islands well clear of the NCA.” Etcetera etcetera.

This is just a made up example. There are countless ways to obfuscate and hide the transaction. That we have black and white confirmed emails offering Banks a Russian gold mine and other offering a Simon mine, from actors working or connected to the Russia state should give you all the evidence you need.

…unless you have a chip on your shoulder about Brexit.


Great if you have well paid lawyers you can bully official bodies as well as individual journalists.


So after all of this, looking at the circumstantal evidence, what is your personal opinion, do you think Banks had connections with the Russian state?

And why would the Kremlin offer Banks sweetheart business deals? They thought he was a nice guy?
The NCA have the ability to trace and examine funds offshore. I've explained how they do it and how the international banking system facilitates that. You mentioned the Cayman Islands for example, the NCA have jurisdiction in the Cayman Islands as it is a British Overseas Territory.

I don't know if Banks has a relationship with Russians. Most large British businesses and significant British businessmen had relationships with Russia/Russian economy by the late 2010s. Russia was assessed to be in the top 7 largest remitters of funds into the UK economy by 2017.

Banks was involved in the mining industry and already owned mines in Africa so business deals involving mines are not on their own evidence of wrong doing.

The facts of the matter are that Leave EU was funded by £8 million worth of loans from a company ownec and controlled by Banks and funded from his personal wealth. That's the facts established by an NCA investigation that also stated there was no evidence of involvement by any other party.

You've implied that Banks used his money and lawyers to engineer the NCA investigation outcome. Like I said, it's a free country and you're entitled to believe that. Working in a senior risk role for a large bank and having worked with the NCA on a number of complex international financial investigations my opinion is that is highly unlikely.
 
The NCA have the ability to trace and examine funds offshore. I've explained how they do it and how the international banking system facilitates that. You mentioned the Cayman Islands for example, the NCA have jurisdiction in the Cayman Islands as it is a British Overseas Territory.

I don't know if Banks has a relationship with Russians. Most large British businesses and significant British businessmen had relationships with Russia/Russian economy by the late 2010s. Russia was assessed to be in the top 7 largest remitters of funds into the UK economy by 2017.

Banks was involved in the mining industry and already owned mines in Africa so business deals involving mines are not on their own evidence of wrong doing.

The facts of the matter are that Leave EU was funded by £8 million worth of loans from a company ownec and controlled by Banks and funded from his personal wealth. That's the facts established by an NCA investigation that also stated there was no evidence of involvement by any other party.

You've implied that Banks used his money and lawyers to engineer the NCA investigation outcome. Like I said, it's a free country and you're entitled to believe that. Working in a senior risk role for a large bank and having worked with the NCA on a number of complex international financial investigations my opinion is that is highly unlikely.

He lied about meetings with Russian officials. Why?

And I’ll ask again: why was the Kremlin offering cheap gold mines to Banks?

The fact he wasn’t the richest of men, but is the highest ever uk political donor Giving away most of his fortune at the time, doesn’t worry you?

We both know the NCA can’t trace funds very far offshore. And that gives Banks and many others protection. However he was listed in the Panama papers so he certainly has off shore accounts that were outside of the NCAs jurisdiction.

Banks was also shady about the source of the funds and changed his story.

My opinion is he is linked with the Russian state as is his mega funding of Leave. Anyone without bias would have concerns looking at the circumstantial evidence. Apart from you! 😂
 
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