spurspinter1
Steve Carr
Re: Broomfield
Where's the sauce for Broomfield leaving?
Where's the sauce for Broomfield leaving?
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Our scouting network
- Thread starter BucurestiSpur
- Start date
milo
Jack L. Jones
Re: Broomfield
No one is talking about limiting it to the British Isles. We need a wide scouting network which tries to attract the best talent wherever it finds it.
No one is talking about limiting it to the British Isles. We need a wide scouting network which tries to attract the best talent wherever it finds it.
Modric THFC
Jimmy McCormick
Re: Broomfield
Homegrown players for Europe are any players who have been at the club for 3 season from the age of 16 to 21. They don't need to be British.
The only reason English players are so pricey is because of the hype that comes with the England team.
Welsh and Irish players who start out as kids at English clubs never have the same hype or price tag.
Homegrown players for Europe are any players who have been at the club for 3 season from the age of 16 to 21. They don't need to be British.
The only reason English players are so pricey is because of the hype that comes with the England team.
Welsh and Irish players who start out as kids at English clubs never have the same hype or price tag.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Re: Broomfield
I guess Sandro and Walker as his 'finds' during 6 years (2 spells, as he was also with us under Graham) ultimately wasn't enough.
I guess Sandro and Walker as his 'finds' during 6 years (2 spells, as he was also with us under Graham) ultimately wasn't enough.
Re: Broomfield
Yes, but the issue for us is spotting them first. At least an adequate amount to fill our needs.
Yes, but the issue for us is spotting them first. At least an adequate amount to fill our needs.
Re: Broomfield
This is the key point I think fans probably get wrong. I seriously doubt it's about discovering or spotting players first. The economics of football are just stacked against this. It's in the financial interest of anyone involved in profiting from youth football to make as many people as possible aware of potential young talent and official club scouts of any team are hugely unlikely to be the one's who first spot talent.
Once a player is on our radar, he's sure to be on the radar of everyone else. From that point on it's down to several factors as to where the player ends up and many of these are more important than our official scouts being impressed.
I get the impression fans generally feel the key is spot them first and get a deal done, when is reality I think there is far more to it than that.
If you look at scouting in just the London area alone, I doubt there is any hugely talented youngster older than 11 years old that isn't on the radar of us, Chelsea, Arsenal and West Ham already. I doubt the key factor in signing these players is making the first offer. If we take that further and cast our net all over the world, the hurdles become even greater.
More than spotting talent first, I think we need to move our way up the pecking order. Things like the new training ground will probably help us far more in this regard. We need to show we are the right club to develop young players, not just to them, but their families as well.
There is of course also the financial factors. Until a few years ago Arsenal wages bill was double ours and that isn't just being spent of the 1st team. Casting our scouting net further is an expensive business. These days I bet we get informed of every young player going, but if our budget is half of our rivals, we have to be twice as selective about what leads we follow up. We can't be as generous when it comes to paying commission to those who put our scouts on to players in the first place. When we hear things like certain clubs having a scouting network of hundreds of people, only a handful will be full time employees. The rest will be free lance or agents. They will earn from the player getting signed by a professional club, not just us or Arsenal or whoever else. When I was kid my mate got trials with both Swindon and Oxford via the same "talent spotter." That was in the 1980's.
These days I doubt there is a half decent kid anywhere in the world that isn't spotted by people with links to every decent club in the Prem. Over the last 5 to 10 years it seems every club has massively extended their scouting a recruiting drive, so get an advantage I think the key is to make ourselves more appealing. I really think the new training ground will help massively with this.
This is the key point I think fans probably get wrong. I seriously doubt it's about discovering or spotting players first. The economics of football are just stacked against this. It's in the financial interest of anyone involved in profiting from youth football to make as many people as possible aware of potential young talent and official club scouts of any team are hugely unlikely to be the one's who first spot talent.
Once a player is on our radar, he's sure to be on the radar of everyone else. From that point on it's down to several factors as to where the player ends up and many of these are more important than our official scouts being impressed.
I get the impression fans generally feel the key is spot them first and get a deal done, when is reality I think there is far more to it than that.
If you look at scouting in just the London area alone, I doubt there is any hugely talented youngster older than 11 years old that isn't on the radar of us, Chelsea, Arsenal and West Ham already. I doubt the key factor in signing these players is making the first offer. If we take that further and cast our net all over the world, the hurdles become even greater.
More than spotting talent first, I think we need to move our way up the pecking order. Things like the new training ground will probably help us far more in this regard. We need to show we are the right club to develop young players, not just to them, but their families as well.
There is of course also the financial factors. Until a few years ago Arsenal wages bill was double ours and that isn't just being spent of the 1st team. Casting our scouting net further is an expensive business. These days I bet we get informed of every young player going, but if our budget is half of our rivals, we have to be twice as selective about what leads we follow up. We can't be as generous when it comes to paying commission to those who put our scouts on to players in the first place. When we hear things like certain clubs having a scouting network of hundreds of people, only a handful will be full time employees. The rest will be free lance or agents. They will earn from the player getting signed by a professional club, not just us or Arsenal or whoever else. When I was kid my mate got trials with both Swindon and Oxford via the same "talent spotter." That was in the 1980's.
These days I doubt there is a half decent kid anywhere in the world that isn't spotted by people with links to every decent club in the Prem. Over the last 5 to 10 years it seems every club has massively extended their scouting a recruiting drive, so get an advantage I think the key is to make ourselves more appealing. I really think the new training ground will help massively with this.
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
Re: Broomfield
This was something I wanted to elaborate on, but didn't have the time to. It's likely that most talents are on the radar of several clubs. The scouts jobs are to compile reports on the players they watch. Not just name, age, club and position on the pitch, but a more in depth look at their skills, potential, character etc. What is important for us is to have scouts we have 100% faith in when it comes to judging a player and be able to make a decision on whether to go for a player before the other clubs do. If you're just going to keep watching them until they're established names it's too late.
This was something I wanted to elaborate on, but didn't have the time to. It's likely that most talents are on the radar of several clubs. The scouts jobs are to compile reports on the players they watch. Not just name, age, club and position on the pitch, but a more in depth look at their skills, potential, character etc. What is important for us is to have scouts we have 100% faith in when it comes to judging a player and be able to make a decision on whether to go for a player before the other clubs do. If you're just going to keep watching them until they're established names it's too late.
jts1882
Dean Richards
Re: Broomfield
A good argument.
So the job of the scouts is not to find an "unknown", but to make the determination that the "prospect" is the "real deal" and make an offer before anyone else. A scouting network is just as important, but what they are expected to do is slightly different.
A good argument.
So the job of the scouts is not to find an "unknown", but to make the determination that the "prospect" is the "real deal" and make an offer before anyone else. A scouting network is just as important, but what they are expected to do is slightly different.
Re: Broomfield
I agree with this, but I actually think we already have a pretty excellent set of scouts. No one's is going to be perfect, but if you look at the players we've signed since Pleat was brought in by Sugar, given the wages and transfers we've spent, we've actually done really well in the transfer market. Pleat gets a lot of brick, but a lot of the players we signed under Arnesen were players we'd followed, once Pleat revamped our scouting in the early 2000's. A lot of fans didn't like Harry talking to the press all the time, but at least we know from this we tried to get Cazorla, Mata and Phil Jones last summer, so we were after real quality and were apparently very close to Mata. Also our performance in the Next Gen tournament shows we have done pretty well in youth recruitment.
Last season fans made a lot of fuss about the signings Carr instigated for Saudi Sportswashing Machine, but if you think about it, none were an obvious buy for us. It's easier to throw money at Cabaye if you have Joey Barton in CM, rather than Luka Modric. There attacking midfielders were clearly no way near the standard of Ben Arfa, but our were. The same is true of Tiote, when we had Sandro or were after him. As for their forwards, I think they are seriously over rated and not the next level standard of players we'd need to push on.
All in all, given the financial resources, I think we can be pretty damn satisfied with our scouting and recruitment. Of course fans rarely are, but objectively speaking I don't think we can complain. We can never dominate youth recruitment in the way big clubs in lesser leagues, like Ajax can, but I think we've more than held our own. If you look at our record of bringing in young players from lower divisions it's actually really good. Some will argue that we could have looked for more talent abroad, but logistically I think that is much harder than many realize and gone are the days we are looking to upgrade on average Prem players. If you look at players recruited by the top 4 clubs in each of the current big 3 leagues over the last 3 years, I think less than 5 players in total were signed for their first teams, from outside of their league, prior to this summer.
Basically I think we've got a good set up and much better than our fans realize or give credit for. We've had input from 3 D of F's, managers and head scouts and think we've generally taken on board much of their better input. Money will continue to be an issue and hopefully the new stadium will help with that. But we now are a much bigger draw than we were 10 years ago and the training facility will make us even more so. As you say, we need to make sure we have the best scouts possible, but let's also give credit those we have as it's not an area we obviously need to improve on and is actually a strength of ours.
I agree with this, but I actually think we already have a pretty excellent set of scouts. No one's is going to be perfect, but if you look at the players we've signed since Pleat was brought in by Sugar, given the wages and transfers we've spent, we've actually done really well in the transfer market. Pleat gets a lot of brick, but a lot of the players we signed under Arnesen were players we'd followed, once Pleat revamped our scouting in the early 2000's. A lot of fans didn't like Harry talking to the press all the time, but at least we know from this we tried to get Cazorla, Mata and Phil Jones last summer, so we were after real quality and were apparently very close to Mata. Also our performance in the Next Gen tournament shows we have done pretty well in youth recruitment.
Last season fans made a lot of fuss about the signings Carr instigated for Saudi Sportswashing Machine, but if you think about it, none were an obvious buy for us. It's easier to throw money at Cabaye if you have Joey Barton in CM, rather than Luka Modric. There attacking midfielders were clearly no way near the standard of Ben Arfa, but our were. The same is true of Tiote, when we had Sandro or were after him. As for their forwards, I think they are seriously over rated and not the next level standard of players we'd need to push on.
All in all, given the financial resources, I think we can be pretty damn satisfied with our scouting and recruitment. Of course fans rarely are, but objectively speaking I don't think we can complain. We can never dominate youth recruitment in the way big clubs in lesser leagues, like Ajax can, but I think we've more than held our own. If you look at our record of bringing in young players from lower divisions it's actually really good. Some will argue that we could have looked for more talent abroad, but logistically I think that is much harder than many realize and gone are the days we are looking to upgrade on average Prem players. If you look at players recruited by the top 4 clubs in each of the current big 3 leagues over the last 3 years, I think less than 5 players in total were signed for their first teams, from outside of their league, prior to this summer.
Basically I think we've got a good set up and much better than our fans realize or give credit for. We've had input from 3 D of F's, managers and head scouts and think we've generally taken on board much of their better input. Money will continue to be an issue and hopefully the new stadium will help with that. But we now are a much bigger draw than we were 10 years ago and the training facility will make us even more so. As you say, we need to make sure we have the best scouts possible, but let's also give credit those we have as it's not an area we obviously need to improve on and is actually a strength of ours.
milo
Jack L. Jones
Re: Broomfield
A great post. Just started reading the I Am The Secret Footballer book and he backs pretty much all of this up
A great post. Just started reading the I Am The Secret Footballer book and he backs pretty much all of this up
Crawley
Board Legend
Re: Broomfield
That's a good post mate, but I have a slightly differing experience of things.
Now, admittedly, I'm outside the london area (West Sussex) but we are in a catchment area nontheless. Most of the "South of the river" clubs venture out......Rarely those North of the river.
My eldest lad plays for a local team, and we regularly get Brighton scouts coming to have a check-up (my boy is being watched at this time), but we occasionally get Chelsea, Fulham, and one or two others having a glimpse.
A striker in the team was spotted by West ham last year. No-one else came in for him. And this month he has now moved up full-time to the Whammers academy.
He played a match 2 weeks ago against Emirates Marketing Project, which the Hammers won 5-2. He scored 3 goals, and immediately after the game, the Emirates Marketing Project coach/scout approached West ham and said...."we want him. No matter what it costs or takes, we want him".
No-one else was aware of this lad. So that part of your theory may not be true.
I'm also aware of the old "who you know, not what you know" school of thought.
A lad at my boys school is on Brightons books, purely because his uncle is on the scouting network. He really isn't all that at all, so it works in different ways too.
And another example............lad who joined my sons team last year, plays CF, is big, strong, athletic etc, but really is not the best footballer out there......West ham want him too, purely because of his size, saying...."we can develop him".
It all works in strange ways. But in my experience, clubs tend to concentrate on strikers too much. I have yet to hear of any local lads getting trials if they play in defence. Here's hoping my lad can break that mould.
That's a good post mate, but I have a slightly differing experience of things.
Now, admittedly, I'm outside the london area (West Sussex) but we are in a catchment area nontheless. Most of the "South of the river" clubs venture out......Rarely those North of the river.
My eldest lad plays for a local team, and we regularly get Brighton scouts coming to have a check-up (my boy is being watched at this time), but we occasionally get Chelsea, Fulham, and one or two others having a glimpse.
A striker in the team was spotted by West ham last year. No-one else came in for him. And this month he has now moved up full-time to the Whammers academy.
He played a match 2 weeks ago against Emirates Marketing Project, which the Hammers won 5-2. He scored 3 goals, and immediately after the game, the Emirates Marketing Project coach/scout approached West ham and said...."we want him. No matter what it costs or takes, we want him".
No-one else was aware of this lad. So that part of your theory may not be true.
I'm also aware of the old "who you know, not what you know" school of thought.
A lad at my boys school is on Brightons books, purely because his uncle is on the scouting network. He really isn't all that at all, so it works in different ways too.
And another example............lad who joined my sons team last year, plays CF, is big, strong, athletic etc, but really is not the best footballer out there......West ham want him too, purely because of his size, saying...."we can develop him".
It all works in strange ways. But in my experience, clubs tend to concentrate on strikers too much. I have yet to hear of any local lads getting trials if they play in defence. Here's hoping my lad can break that mould.
metalgear
Luka Modric
Re: Broomfield
to have a world-class facility is different from being able to produce world-class footballers
you need competition and variety - on a global scale to achieve that.
thing is though we've never been able to bring through foreign youths like how Man U or Arsenal do - Tarrabt, GDS etc.
Aside from just the facilities I do think that there are other soft support structures to keep young footballers motivated if not inspired to become world best. e.g. native language schooling, friends and family, or another young footballer from the same country. Just not sure if we have the money to do all that.
to have a world-class facility is different from being able to produce world-class footballers
you need competition and variety - on a global scale to achieve that.
thing is though we've never been able to bring through foreign youths like how Man U or Arsenal do - Tarrabt, GDS etc.
Aside from just the facilities I do think that there are other soft support structures to keep young footballers motivated if not inspired to become world best. e.g. native language schooling, friends and family, or another young footballer from the same country. Just not sure if we have the money to do all that.
Re: Broomfield
I disagree with a few points here, joey
The notion suggesting every single half-decent youngster out there is already spotted and on the 'books' of some scouts is not entirely true, imv - as Crawley's personal experience examples further illustrated.
What is the premise here - good 'scouting' comes down to who has the funds to secure the deal? Perhaps that is the case in proven players such as Mata, Cazorla, and Jones (your examples) - but those are already senior proven units - no scouting beyond contacting their respective agents is required in those cases.
As for the Harry sound-bite - he also said we were after Tevez and Torres. Unrealistic targets is different to spotting young talent (even Modric can be considered such a 'steal' because he was relatively unknown at the time) - so I'm not quite sure what that reference has to do with the debate of good scouting.
United signed Henriquez, Hernandez over the last 2 years from South America
Chelsea brought it Piazon, Davilla, and Oscar from the same parts of the world
Bar Oscar - I'm not sure more than 10% of this board knew who those players were and I'm 99% certain they weren't on every clubs scouting list.
Another club which has great international networks if FC Porto - over the last decade years they have brought in some remarkable names (and later sold them for massive profits!)
Have a look at this - http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/fc-porto/transfers-alle/verein_720.html
I disagree with a few points here, joey
The notion suggesting every single half-decent youngster out there is already spotted and on the 'books' of some scouts is not entirely true, imv - as Crawley's personal experience examples further illustrated.
What is the premise here - good 'scouting' comes down to who has the funds to secure the deal? Perhaps that is the case in proven players such as Mata, Cazorla, and Jones (your examples) - but those are already senior proven units - no scouting beyond contacting their respective agents is required in those cases.
As for the Harry sound-bite - he also said we were after Tevez and Torres. Unrealistic targets is different to spotting young talent (even Modric can be considered such a 'steal' because he was relatively unknown at the time) - so I'm not quite sure what that reference has to do with the debate of good scouting.
United signed Henriquez, Hernandez over the last 2 years from South America
Chelsea brought it Piazon, Davilla, and Oscar from the same parts of the world
Bar Oscar - I'm not sure more than 10% of this board knew who those players were and I'm 99% certain they weren't on every clubs scouting list.
Another club which has great international networks if FC Porto - over the last decade years they have brought in some remarkable names (and later sold them for massive profits!)
Have a look at this - http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/fc-porto/transfers-alle/verein_720.html
Crawley
Board Legend
Re: Broomfield
Another point on this.........
Based on personal experience of my sons age group (under 15 this season), and from info given to me from elsewhere about a certain North london football club:
There are, despite the FAs attempts at development, still scouts/coaches out there who will only consider youngsters who are way above average height/build/strength, regardless of their football skills.
Children of average build or below, who have un-doubted ball skill and talent, are being overlooked.
Personally I find that disgraceful.
Another point on this.........
Based on personal experience of my sons age group (under 15 this season), and from info given to me from elsewhere about a certain North london football club:
There are, despite the FAs attempts at development, still scouts/coaches out there who will only consider youngsters who are way above average height/build/strength, regardless of their football skills.
Children of average build or below, who have un-doubted ball skill and talent, are being overlooked.
Personally I find that disgraceful.
Re: Broomfield
And that is why in 20 years time England would still be technically outclassed by mediocre foobtall countries at Wembley and would instead rely on long punts to some fudging bean-pole upfront
And that is why in 20 years time England would still be technically outclassed by mediocre foobtall countries at Wembley and would instead rely on long punts to some fudging bean-pole upfront
