Our defenders - rated overall in their time with Spurs

[glasgowspur]

Now, I'd make some assumptions

- Defenders will obviously be more "liable" (note, the analysis is negative actions, not necessarily error/absolutely at fault)
- You would have to take the games played into equation

With that in mind
- Dier & Lloris are in a disaster class by themselves
- Sanchez, Sess & Porro are in a bad place simply by games played (Porro the one with some hope)

Impressive from skipp.

 

[Lemonade Money]

Now, I'd make some assumptions

- Defenders will obviously be more "liable" (note, the analysis is negative actions, not necessarily error/absolutely at fault)
- You would have to take the games played into equation

With that in mind
- Dier & Lloris are in a disaster class by themselves
- Sanchez, Sess & Porro are in a bad place simply by games played (Porro the one with some hope)

Has Porro even played 8 games?
Has Bissouma played 6 games?
And who was it trying to argue that Hojbjerg is a better DM than Skipp because of stats?
Presume Son would top 'Negative Defensive Actions Leading to Negative Defensive Actions Leading to a Goal', as his number seems low.

 

[FatBloke]

Now, I'd make some assumptions

- Defenders will obviously be more "liable" (note, the analysis is negative actions, not necessarily error/absolutely at fault)
- You would have to take the games played into equation

With that in mind
- Dier & Lloris are in a disaster class by themselves
- Sanchez, Sess & Porro are in a bad place simply by games played (Porro the one with some hope)

Yep, interesting stuff. And kudos to the guy (not you!) who put all that effort in.

I'd like to see that graph divided by minutes played. Actually, I may as well just do it...



I've used whole-season minutes-played figures, taken from https://www.myfootballfacts.com/eng...-hotspur-squad-minutes-played-season-2022-23/

That confirms some pretty much accepted wisdom for the season, with Porro and Dier standing out as walking defensive disaster areas. I'm surprised Sanchez is up there too, but not too surprised.

As always, a graph is only as good as its underlying data, and we're talking pretty small sample sizes here. Also highly subjective -- there's no mechanism to account for goals being conceded through attacks down our left while Perisic's ambling back from the halfway line, for example.

It'd be interesting to see what happens if "assists to the fudge-ups" were given out, e.g. half a blame mark to the next two players for each goal conceded.

 

[Raziel]

Yep, interesting stuff. And kudos to the guy (not you!) who put all that effort in.

I'd like to see that graph divided by minutes played. Actually, I may as well just do it...

View attachment 15498

I've used whole-season minutes-played figures, taken from https://www.myfootballfacts.com/eng...-hotspur-squad-minutes-played-season-2022-23/

That confirms some pretty much accepted wisdom for the season, with Porro and Dier standing out as walking defensive disaster areas. I'm surprised Sanchez is up there too, but not too surprised.

As always, a graph is only as good as its underlying data, and we're talking pretty small sample sizes here. Also highly subjective -- there's not mechanism to account for goals being conceded through attacks down our left while Perisic's ambling back from the halfway line, for example.

It'd be interesting to see what happens if "assists to the fudge-ups" were given out, e.g. half a blame mark to the next two players for each goal conceded.

If you actually go through the work the original guy (and yes he deserves the kudos not me) did, he calls out all the players in the action, so if you felt motivated you could get the half fudge ups. Hint, Dier's numbers get even worse.

From my perspective, if you add some logic (i.e. Porro being new, and quite few of those FUs were in one game with him out of position)

- Dier & Sanchez confirm what we already knew
- Lloris is really bad in this view (Keeper should not have same/more fault than CBs)

The real interesting math would be

- If you were to assume Davies/Lenglet/Perisic are kind of an average of "attainable" performance
- Replace Dier & Sanchez with two CB's that can actually defend
- Don't play Porro in a back 4, assume some improvement with time
- Coach Romero to play more like Saturday, he benefits from better defenders around him
- Get a better GK

How much do you bring down the fudge ups by? how many less goals do you concede?

 

[Bishop]

Great work on the stats and not really surprising. Dier is a cluster fudge as is Sanchez and their numbers are very comparable as i've always argued. There is no difference between them, they are both below standard. Lloris is finished. Sess is awful defensively, especially when his low number of minutes is taken into account. Porro is concerning given hes barely played half a season and he ranks pretty high in our overall numbers. Romero needs work but has quality and the potential is there.

 

[glasgowspur]

Yep, interesting stuff. And kudos to the guy (not you!) who put all that effort in.

I'd like to see that graph divided by minutes played. Actually, I may as well just do it...

View attachment 15498

I've used whole-season minutes-played figures, taken from https://www.myfootballfacts.com/eng...-hotspur-squad-minutes-played-season-2022-23/

That confirms some pretty much accepted wisdom for the season, with Porro and Dier standing out as walking defensive disaster areas. I'm surprised Sanchez is up there too, but not too surprised.

As always, a graph is only as good as its underlying data, and we're talking pretty small sample sizes here. Also highly subjective -- there's no mechanism to account for goals being conceded through attacks down our left while Perisic's ambling back from the halfway line, for example.

It'd be interesting to see what happens if "assists to the fudge-ups" were given out, e.g. half a blame mark to the next two players for each goal conceded.

Even more impressive from skipp.

 

[Yiddo]

Sanchez - 4
Royal - 6
Perisic - 4
Dier - 4
Romero - 6
Sessegnon - 5
Tanganga - 4
Davies - 7
Lenglet - 5
Reguilon - 5
Rodon - 4

 

[Grays_1890]

Someone did a bunch of work on the goals we conceded and the players involved

https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/13a8v5s

3 guesses as to where the majority of the errors sit?

No shocks but its says alot about the modern game that a Spurs fans gone to that extent to discredit his own players, we know they are bad at times but I find the over egging of slating our own players or finding reasons to slightly odd and definitely a change in tone over the years.

Also these stats tell far from the true story (I know it puts that caveat). But how many goals come from lack of hard yards further up the pitch? I have seen many a time where Sons not covered where he has, thats where dangerous attacks start, you then look at the lack of coverage in midfield, tactics, putting already under confidence players under more pressure?

I mean every goal could be attributed to a player or a mistake but its not really a road I feel tells a whole story or is even healthy to go down IMO

 

[Bedfordspurs]

No shocks but its says alot about the modern game that a Spurs fans gone to that extent to discredit his own players, we know they are bad at times but I find the over egging of slating our own players or finding reasons to slightly odd and definitely a change in tone over the years.

Also these stats tell far from the true story (I know it puts that caveat). But how many goals come from lack of hard yards further up the pitch? I have seen many a time where Sons not covered where he has, thats where dangerous attacks start, you then look at the lack of coverage in midfield, tactics, putting already under confidence players under more pressure?

I mean every goal could be attributed to a player or a mistake but its not really a road I feel tells a whole story or is even healthy to go down IMO

I’ve read through his comments
Takes into no account so many things
Look at his assessment of the Saudi Sportswashing Machine goals at home
Both came form Hugo… but nah he prefers to add others into the blame
There is no science in focussing on a goal conceded but there is always a bias
He does however concede the some goals are just good goals. That’s fair

 

[Raziel]

No shocks but its says alot about the modern game that a Spurs fans gone to that extent to discredit his own players, we know they are bad at times but I find the over egging of slating our own players or finding reasons to slightly odd and definitely a change in tone over the years.

Also these stats tell far from the true story (I know it puts that caveat). But how many goals come from lack of hard yards further up the pitch? I have seen many a time where Sons not covered where he has, thats where dangerous attacks start, you then look at the lack of coverage in midfield, tactics, putting already under confidence players under more pressure?

I mean every goal could be attributed to a player or a mistake but its not really a road I feel tells a whole story or is even healthy to go down IMO

Makes me think, I'd say look at it a few ways

- To give the original poster some credit he called it negative actions (vs. fault), he also very rarely puts it down to one person entirely.
- Our defense is shockingly bad, only 5 teams in the league are worse (only 3 teams are better offensively yet we would all probably say our offense could/should do better as well)
- My view is what I put a few posts above, could a change of personnel (quantified somehow) significantly change that problem even before you get to system changes?

There are lots of caveats, a lot that are relevant as well.

- System, how deep we sit, how little we press high, how we are generally outnumbered in midfield, trying to play from back without press resistant personnel and most importantly injuries (Bentancur and Royal make a huge difference)

I don't think slagging off players is a new thing, as a fan base we have always had a thing for spacegoats, what is new is the belief that you don't really need to back/support the team/players/club, it's all about you, are you being entertained, are you getting value for money (the irony from a fanbase that accuses the club about being money focused), is the club exposing you to banter (how many posts on this forum about the club being a joke/laughing stick)

 

[Grays_1890]

I’ve read through his comments
Takes into no account so many things
Look at his assessment of the Saudi Sportswashing Machine goals at home
Both came form Hugo… but nah he prefers to add others into the blame
There is no science in focussing on a goal conceded but there is always a bias
He does however concede the some goals are just good goals. That’s fair

But where is the line on mistakes anyway? Who is credited for a mistake where say a bad pass back becomes a mistake? Or someone who lets someone walk pass them to leave a defender 1-1 who then gets blamed for a mistake? Someone in attack fails to track meaning we are 3 on 2 in defence which builds pressure for a mistake?

It all seems focused on blame for me when, if anyones played at any level its rarely one persons definitive fault when you concede a goal, its usually like a plane crash, a collective of mistakes which leads to the ultimate

 

[Grays_1890]

I don't think slagging off players is a new thing, as a fan base we have always had a thing for spacegoats, what is new is the belief that you don't really need to back/support the team/players/club, it's all about you, are you being entertained, are you getting value for money (the irony from a fanbase that accuses the club about being money focused), is the club exposing you to banter (how many posts on this forum about the club being a joke/laughing stick)

To the level it is now, its 100% changed. Players now feeling like the need to close social accounts, Sanchez getting boo'ed, Sanchez getting racially abused by his own fans to close his socials. Players being used as a clear proxy to get at the board, without a doubt, examples on here where views are so entrenched on the board that some players are fodder. Its as bad as I have ever known it.

I have said it before, I have been home and away in worse times with worse players and had a better feel good experience about it, thats as much to do with the fans as anything else.

 

[Raziel]

To the level it is now, its 100% changed. Players now feeling like the need to close social accounts, Sanchez getting boo'ed, Sanchez getting racially abused by his own fans to close his socials. Players being used as a clear proxy to get at the board, without a doubt, examples on here where views are so entrenched on the board that some players are fodder. Its as bad as I have ever known it.

I have said it before, I have been home and away in worse times with worse players and had a better feel good experience about it, thats as much to do with the fans as anything else.

With some nuance I was agreeing with you.

- As a whole, our fans/crowd are the worse it has ever been, something not unique to us btw, but really poor all the same
- I've said it before, it's actually a huge negative on my match day experience to the point that I suspect at some point I'll stop going
- I think booing individual players or the team during game is completely counter productive and fudging unpleasant

But spacegoating/blame especially post match is nothing new, the way our fans chose to act on it, that has changed.

 

[Grays_1890]

With some nuance I was agreeing with you.

- As a whole, our fans/crowd are the worse it has ever been, something not unique to us btw, but really poor all the same
- I've said it before, it's actually a huge negative on my match day experience to the point that I suspect at some point I'll stop going
- I think booing individual players or the team during game is completely counter productive and fudging unpleasant

But spacegoating/blame especially post match is nothing new, the way our fans chose to act on it, that has changed.

I've stopped going for that reason, I am no Levy lover although I would not be shocked to be labelled one for holding a more balanced view, but the amount of bile that is now spouted at games because of Levy which included an undoubted knock on to players who are regarded crap or cheap, the crap I have heard at my seats, in the queues for beers and the tube....its just like a bunch of divs who have lost all perspective.

As much as I think PEH and Sess are not the answer there are dedicated twitter pages set up by Spurs fans to slaughter them, its utterly pathetic

 

[FatBloke]

But where is the line on mistakes anyway? Who is credited for a mistake where say a bad pass back becomes a mistake? Or someone who lets someone walk pass them to leave a defender 1-1 who then gets blamed for a mistake? Someone in attack fails to track meaning we are 3 on 2 in defence which builds pressure for a mistake?

It all seems focused on blame for me when, if anyones played at any level its rarely one persons definitive fault when you concede a goal, its usually like a plane crash, a collective of mistakes which leads to the ultimate

Fair point, and I guess my use of the term "fudge-ups" (rather than "negative defensive actions") doesn't come across as tongue-in-cheek as I meant it.

You can argue that most goals conceded are down to mistakes -- whether individual, from the defensive unit, or the team as a whole. So of course CBs are going to look worse in the stats. As Raziel and Bedford have pointed out, the guy who apportioned the blame in the first place is somewhat less black-and-white if you read his comments (which I didn't really do initially). It's an exercise, nothing more.

My feeling is that you need your defenders to be solid, first and foremost. But there are mitigating factors as well. Ben Davies, the epitome of a solid full-back, isn't going to add an extra dimension to the attack like Porro might. And few defenders are going to put a reducer on Haaland then have him in their pocket all game like Romero did.

Overall, I think that Dier and Lloris have been excellent servants to our club -- absolute stalwarts during the Poch era -- and I will always remember that. All those people in this thread giving Dier a 4 for his entire time at Spurs must have very short memories. However, their time is coming (/has come) to an end. Porro is young and new, but certainly isn't ready for a defensive shift. Romero is a very exciting defender, but needs to have a solid partner (or partners) for us to have anything like defensive solidity.

 

[Grays_1890]

Overall, I think that Dier and Lloris have been excellent servants to our club -- absolute stalwarts during the Poch era -- and I will always remember that. All those people in this thread giving Dier a 4 for his entire time at Spurs must have very short memories. However, their time is coming (/has come) to an end. Porro is young and new, but certainly isn't ready for a defensive shift. Romero is a very exciting defender, but needs to have a solid partner (or partners) for us to have anything like defensive solidity.

And that sums up the balance I agree with, lets remember those that have been great for us, Lloris for sure has been and Romero will become, as will by the looks of it Porro will be (if played right), Davies has been a very good servant of very little individual mistakes but alas is unspectacular. The fact we have not had a perfect storm of them all playing together at peak works against them as a unit but not a reason to tear them down.

 

[parklane1]

No shocks but its says alot about the modern game that a Spurs fans gone to that extent to discredit his own players, we know they are bad at times but I find the over egging of slating our own players or finding reasons to slightly odd and definitely a change in tone over the years.

Also these stats tell far from the true story (I know it puts that caveat). But how many goals come from lack of hard yards further up the pitch? I have seen many a time where Sons not covered where he has, thats where dangerous attacks start, you then look at the lack of coverage in midfield, tactics, putting already under confidence players under more pressure?

I mean every goal could be attributed to a player or a mistake but its not really a road I feel tells a whole story or is even healthy to go down IMO

Good post and i do agree with what you say, i have worked in football most of my life and have said that stats CAN be usefull but they can also be misleading in so many ways and are used at times to try and show a point that some may want to push. Sad to say stats are bandied about by a lot of so called experts and are used wrongly and that often leads to the wrong impressions being made.

As i have said ( and seen/used) stats can be usefull but they are NOT the be all and end all.

 

[Grays_1890]

Good post and i do agree with what you say, i have worked in football most of my life and have said that stats CAN be usefull but they can also be misleading in so many ways and are used at times to try and show a point that some may want to push. Sad to say stats are bandied about by a lot of so called experts and are used wrongly and that often leads to the wrong impressions being made.

As i have said ( and seen/used) stats can be usefull but they are NOT the be all and end all.

And in their place, used by those in the game, 100% a guide. And look I can say here, hand on heart Dier has not been good enough. I just do wonder about motivations of "Supporters" who create profiles and pages to hammer home the point, want to shame players, regularly call them "cnuts", fans that boo, who blame them for the lack of the second coming of Christ....you get the point

Its easy to churn an agenda also by taking individual moments or still shots to blame a player (I have done it). But ultimately you look at the good teams, its not about individual mistakes, they all, to a man do things better that takes HUGE pressure off individuals which means less mistakes. Attack as a team, defend as one, work hard and get the fundamentals right, thats why teams the best best teams can also carry those less talented who are equally important to the team, because as a unit they are much much better at the simple things.

 

[thfcsteff]

But where is the line on mistakes anyway? Who is credited for a mistake where say a bad pass back becomes a mistake? Or someone who lets someone walk pass them to leave a defender 1-1 who then gets blamed for a mistake? Someone in attack fails to track meaning we are 3 on 2 in defence which builds pressure for a mistake?

It all seems focused on blame for me when, if anyones played at any level its rarely one persons definitive fault when you concede a goal, its usually like a plane crash, a collective of mistakes which leads to the ultimate

This. All day.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

We are Spurs we dont do defenders. Since I've been going the only really good defenders I can think of are:

England
Beal
Collins
Gough
Campbell
King
Naybet
Woodgate

Not any fullbacks, since Baker and Henry we've always tried playing attacking fullbacks, had some good ones but none would qualify as good defenders to me.