OT: What next for Harry?

[thfcsteff]

Ah but by saying that one could presume that Ramos would be seen as a success as he won a trophy in his first season, especially thrashing arsenal in semi's and defeating Chelsea in the final?

For me success today is defined as top 4 and even more so playing the attractive football we played

You've hit a vital, vital point in this discussion mate.

When we got 4th by winning at Eastlands, I danced in the aisle (literally) hugged men I never knew and will likely never know, sung myself hoarse, shed tears and was tinkled by the time we hit Knutsford on the way home.We all then staggered home a few hours later and watched the entire fudging thing again! It was amazing, a-fudging-mazing, and I SAW us win the FA Cup twice AND the Uefa Cup at the Lane, I was there! Yet this moment was shoulder-to-shoulder with them. Christ, the JOY of seeing Harry get dumped with Gatorade or whatever it was when we saw the replays that late late night/early AM; the TRUE mark of a 'winner'! I will never, ever, ever forget that moment, it keeps me going today.

The EXPECTATION that year was less. The PRESSURE was less until those final 6 games, and even then nobody thought we could. But we did.

Last season because of where we are going into February, the expectations were greater than 4th. They were 3rd minimum. And maybe even the FA Cup! So that is why finishing 4th was a disappointment. Because whatever you feel, I refuse to believe that in Feb, one person would've been satisfied with 4th come the end of the season. Is that Harry's fault for over-achieving? If you consider it over-achievement with a squad containing VdV, Bale and Modric, then yes. I don't think we over-achieved, I think we grew. and I think many people, come Feb last season, felt we would've learnt from the previous season's spring dip.

Thus IMO, it's simply not enough to say we were a 'success' because we finished 'top 4' last season. We all knew what was at stake. We all knew the chance we'd already blown. And we all knew, going into the last two games of the season, that those sins would be forgiven if we could just win those two games against sides who weren't actually very good.
We couldn't.
So frankly, I think when viewed in honest context, most Spurs supporters would say that finishing 4th after what we had done for two-thirds of the season, and in the manner in which we did (and with the semi-final capitulation, something I blamed the ref and lino for until it was pointed out to me we still shipped 5 goals and only one of those was illegitimate) was not a resounding success. Indeed, most of us 'generously' said that it was what we'd have settled for at the start of the season. PERSONALLY, I had marked us as potential title winners. 3rd year with a settled squad, they knew each other, Modders staying, Harry, I genuinely felt it was all in place for us to have a real crack at the title.
We will never know what might've happened if all that furor and flirting with the England job hadn't happened...

 

[africanspurs]

Sadly, it appears that anyone questioning any portion of Harry's reign is destined to be targeted for the rest of their time as a contributor to this forum as some sort of lying idiot who knows nothing and engages in works of fiction to make their point. Personally, I find THIS the saddest thing of all. Genuine questions are simply met with angry rebuttal, and situations get distorted beyond all context.

I just managed to tie off an excellent debate with Joey55, the latter portion of which was exchanged via PM simply because I realize that ANY detailed opinions on Redknapp will result in finger-pointing and deep-rooted, polarized resentment. It's so sad. For the record, I thoroughly enjoyed mine and Joey's debate, there was respect on both sides, and I look forward to future discussions of that nature. Hopefully once again with you, hopefully with others...but it will require a putting down of the shields, an electronic 'handshake', an acceptance that not everyone sees things the same way, an acceptance that success is defined in many different ways (for example, 'success' in life to me is NOT how much money you make, but the quality of the time you spend living your life - doesn't mean it's the ONLY definition of success, it's just mine!) and the realization that we are ALL Spurs supporters. We need to get away from this "need" to be "right" all the time. Truth is, the way we will ALL win is when a manager starts winning trophies with us. Let's hope for the club's sake that it's AVB.

No , sorry mate but you dont get to play the victim position when there are people, such as myself, that get warnings from mods not to talk about harry.

we are all spurs supporters obviously and no one here hates each other cause most of us dont know each other personally but we are adults here and if someone rubbishes harry's work you can be sure that i'll be like "errr, no thank because of x,y and z"

 

[africanspurs]

actually i'm fatgued with this for the night...am sure i will beback on it later in the week

 

[Jurgen the German]

You've hit a vital, vital point in this discussion mate.

When we got 4th by winning at Eastlands, I danced in the aisle (literally) hugged men I never knew and will likely never know, sung myself hoarse, shed tears and was tinkled by the time we hit Knutsford on the way home.We all then staggered home a few hours later and watched the entire fudging thing again! It was amazing, a-fudging-mazing, and I SAW us win the FA Cup twice AND the Uefa Cup at the Lane, I was there! Yet this moment was shoulder-to-shoulder with them. Christ, the JOY of seeing Harry get dumped with Gatorade or whatever it was when we saw the replays that late late night/early AM; the TRUE mark of a 'winner'! I will never, ever, ever forget that moment, it keeps me going today.

The EXPECTATION that year was less. The PRESSURE was less until those final 6 games, and even then nobody thought we could. But we did.

Last season because of where we are going into February, the expectations were greater than 4th. They were 3rd minimum. And maybe even the FA Cup! So that is why finishing 4th was a disappointment. Because whatever you feel, I refuse to believe that in Feb, one person would've been satisfied with 4th come the end of the season. Is that Harry's fault for over-achieving? If you consider it over-achievement with a squad containing VdV, Bale and Modric, then yes. I don't think we over-achieved, I think we grew. and I think many people, come Feb last season, felt we would've learnt from the previous season's spring dip.

Thus IMO, it's simply not enough to say we were a 'success' because we finished 'top 4' last season. We all knew what was at stake. We all knew the chance we'd already blown. And we all knew, going into the last two games of the season, that those sins would be forgiven if we could just win those two games against sides who weren't actually very good.
We couldn't.
So frankly, I think when viewed in honest context, most Spurs supporters would say that finishing 4th after what we had done for two-thirds of the season, and in the manner in which we did (and with the semi-final capitulation, something I blamed the ref and lino for until it was pointed out to me we still shipped 5 goals and only one of those was illegitimate) was not a resounding success. Indeed, most of us 'generously' said that it was what we'd have settled for at the start of the season. PERSONALLY, I had marked us as potential title winners. 3rd year with a settled squad, they knew each other, Modders staying, Harry, I genuinely felt it was all in place for us to have a real crack at the title.
We will never know what might've happened if all that furor and flirting with the England job hadn't happened...

I agree with most of that.

But for me, given where we were when he took over, and the league positions we achieved under him, plus the fact that he also raised the profile of the club due to our CL campaign, he was a resounding success. Especially given our spending power compsred to our rivals.

 

[thfcsteff]

No , sorry mate but you dont get to play the victim position when there are people, such as myself, that get warnings from mods not to talk about harry.

we are all spurs supporters obviously and no one here hates each other cause most of us dont know each other personally but we are adults here and if someone rubbishes harry's work you can be sure that i'll be like "errr, no thank because of x,y and z"

'Playing the victim?' Good one. yes please, send an ambulance mate, I'm hurt! :lol:
When have I sent you anything telling you to stop talking about Harry? Actually African, I haven't sent anyone a warning to tell them to stop talking about anything. The MOST I've done is PM a couple of people a very friendly message about how they might be able to get a point across better without insulting someone! What I HAVE done, on numerous occasions, is request that people try to remain civil and non-accusatory in debate. If you don't understand that, then sorry!

...I give up. Think what you want. I'll keep on saying what I feel, you keep on saying what you want. It will all work itself out somehow, these things do...hopefully we can all at least agree that MOVING FORWARD, both Spurs and Redknapp find exactly what they're each looking for.

 

[metalgear]

credit where it is due, but i believe Burkinshaw and Venables had better results?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...airman-Daniel-Levy-ends-in-the-exit-door.html

 

[thfcsteff]

I agree with most of that.

But for me, given where we were when he took over, and the league positions we achieved under him, plus the fact that he also raised the profile of the club due to our CL campaign, he was a resounding success. Especially given our spending power compsred to our rivals.

Fair enough mate. It would be hard, and foolish, to argue with that.
More than anything, as I sit here rounding this off, I wish he had kept focus, I wish he had committed to us and I wish he had thus finished 3rd so as this conversation became academic. It is clear to me that everyone, including Harry, thought last season would be his last at the club due to the England job. Further, it is interesting to wonder whether Levy would've canned him anyway had we finished 3rd. Personally? I think he'd have got an extra two years UNLESS Mourinho became available and could've been tempted (something everyone would've known by the middle of April had we maintained our form and some form of points gap). We'll never know.

 

[thfcsteff]

credit where it is due, but i believe Burkinshaw and Venables had better results?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...airman-Daniel-Levy-ends-in-the-exit-door.html

I loved Burky's Spurs...that was FULL glory...silverware, European glory and a couple of very real flirtations with the title...

p.s. I think i need to ask a mod to ban me from this thread! I'm in and in deep...must-get-out...

 

[Jordinho]

To be brutally honest I think this was partly down to Levy/board and partly down to Redknapp. I don't want to seem offensive but I honestly don't know if he had the clout/confidence/know-how/experience to buy players at the level where you are making further tweas to a good squad to make it great. TBF to him we were his biggest job he'd ever had and purchasing players at our level of need but with our budgetary restrictions I think he would have found difficult. I think his targets were often PL tried and tested and any subtle targets beyond that (which often I felt we needed - see Saudi Sportswashing Machine) I think he struggled to brifge that gap.

That's why apart from Remy (odd) and Damiao (ongoing) we cannot name other strikers that we were linked with - part from Rodallega (see PL tried and tested) and perhaps the board trusted his judement less and less as time went on (Palacios, Crouch, Pienaar etc). And hence transfer stalemate - and old crock Louis Saha

IMO Redknapp was far too short term in his transfer strategy. He got us out of trouble and competing for top 4, but his last two seasons we should have been putting together a squad for the long term. I don't think Redknapp really cared too much beyond right here and now, only going for players to perform straight away and chuck them out next year when someone else becomes available. That was his way of keeping things fresh, to have a big turnover of players. Financially, that's not a good way to operate, as so much money will be spent on agents and sign on fees that could have been better spent elsewhere.

We had the nucleus of a great squad and were in a position where we only needed to add one or two top players every season, as long as we kept signing young talents to develop ourselves. I think Levy and Sherwood wanted a setup more along those lines, for us to maintain our position in the league and continue to develop. We don't have endless amounts of money, so we need to be absolutely sure on our targets, not just their footballing qualities, but their character as well. I think that was one of the major reasons why our coaching setup had to change, Redknapp and Levy's vision for the future of the club weren't compatible in the end

 

[africanspurs]

'Playing the victim?' Good one. yes please, send an ambulance mate, I'm hurt! :lol:
When have I sent you anything telling you to stop talking about Harry? Actually African, I haven't sent anyone a warning to tell them to stop talking about anything. The MOST I've done is PM a couple of people a very friendly message about how they might be able to get a point across better without insulting someone! What I HAVE done, on numerous occasions, is request that people try to remain civil and non-accusatory in debate. If you don't understand that, then sorry!

...I give up. Think what you want. I'll keep on saying what I feel, you keep on saying what you want. It will all work itself out somehow, these things do...hopefully we can all at least agree that MOVING FORWARD, both Spurs and Redknapp find exactly what they're each looking for.

we'll just wait for Kingdawson to get wake up shall we. he was asking why we couldnt talk about harry redknapp in threads or make new threads about harry which were said were going to be locked

and playing the victim is a figure of speech, you dont have to be mugged , knocked out or emotionally brutilised..you just have to act like the injured party..so being 'hurt' isnt part of the criteria ...you just need to be seen as being targeted for an opinion. and you guys dont really have an iota to fall on acting like every time you make a harry comment you get chased for it. think about what its like being on the other side.

Edit:- you've also got selective reasoning....you arent the deity of mods, so when i say mods and at the same time am not specific.....technically speaking the best way to avoid that is just to ask "who are you talking about?"

 

[africanspurs]

LOL, ahaha...its taken a while but i can see the reason MK makes a note of things and stores them away. i havent quite reached there yet and dont know / think if i ever will...but if i did i could just throw stuff like "no one ever warned you not to talk about harry in a thread" back at an accuser LOL

 

[metalgear]

I loved Burky's Spurs...that was FULL glory...silverware, European glory and a couple of very real flirtations with the title...

p.s. I think i need to ask a mod to ban me from this thread! I'm in and in deep...must-get-out...

i think harry brought us back to the good old glory days and some folks here can appreciate that.
there's a younger set of fans that perhaps are too young to acknowledge that and its all about champions league in its modern form.

i think levy understands the glory-glory days looking at the chances he takes with managers and players alike.

harry did well but we were going to lose modric and vdv and king anyway... and i don't think anyone can say for sure that without our 3 best players, harry would still be the best to lead the club forwards.... especially when he seemed to be more motivated about his career and salary!

 

[thfcsteff]

we'll just wait for Kingdawson to get wake up shall we. he was asking why we couldnt talk about harry redknapp in threads or make new threads about harry which were said were going to be locked

and playing the victim is a figure of speech, you dont have to be mugged , knocked out or emotionally brutilised..you just have to act like the injured party..so being 'hurt' isnt part of the criteria ...you just need to be seen as being targeted for an opinion. and you guys dont really have an iota to fall on acting like every time you make a harry comment you get chased for it. think about what its like being on the other side.

Edit:- you've also got selective reasoning....you arent the deity of mods, so when i say mods and at the same time am not specific.....technically speaking the best way to avoid that is just to ask "who are you talking about?"

Tell you what.
I'll go one better than 'who are you talking about'...WHAT are you talking about?

 

[thfcsteff]

LOL, ahaha...its taken a while but i can see the reason MK makes a note of things and stores them away. i havent quite reached there yet and dont know / think if i ever will...but if i did i could just throw stuff like "no one ever warned you not to talk about harry in a thread" back at an accuser LOL

Who are you talking about?
Who is 'an accuser?'

 

[africanspurs]

Tell you what.
I'll go one better than 'who are you talking about'...WHAT are you talking about?

if its the bit in bold it relates you,thfc steff, saying this

"Sadly, it appears that anyone questioning any portion of Harry's reign is destined to be targeted for the rest of their time as a contributor to this forum as some sort of lying idiot who knows nothing and engages in works of fiction to make their point. Personally, I find THIS the saddest thing of all. Genuine questions are simply met with angry rebuttal, and situations get distorted beyond all context."

thats playing the martyr, victim, persecuted, hounded..whatever

that is what i am talking about..and the second one relates to me not saying you, thfcsteff, in particular is the one that said dont talk about harry

however what did happen is after the mod, honestly i cant remember who, actually tells me to stop talking about harry in a thread...you did come in...make a few harry comments and then said "why are we talking about harry"...at which point jordinho came in and played devils advocate about me responding out of compulsion to respond to someone thats actually talking to me about a topic...and then you followed up with "thats very sad". youvtried to delete it but i quoted it just in time

thats just ONE of the times...but it was the lengthy one....the other one was very vague and quick as it followed the first one. cant remember much details.

 

[africanspurs]

Who are you talking about?
Who is 'an accuser?'

figure of speech again or generalisation, it was actually more pre emptive than anything else......at some point the revisionist powers of GG will make it out like people were not told to stop talking about harry in various threads.

 

[thfcsteff]

if its the bit in bold it relates you,thfc steff, saying this

"Sadly, it appears that anyone questioning any portion of Harry's reign is destined to be targeted for the rest of their time as a contributor to this forum as some sort of lying idiot who knows nothing and engages in works of fiction to make their point. Personally, I find THIS the saddest thing of all. Genuine questions are simply met with angry rebuttal, and situations get distorted beyond all context."

thats playing the martyr, victim, persecuted, hounded..whatever

that is what i am talking about..and the second one relates to me not saying you, thfcsteff, in particular is the one that said dont talk about harry

however what did happen is after the mod, honestly i cant remember who, actually tells me to stop talking about harry in a thread...you did come in...make a few harry comments and then said "why are we talking about harry"...at which point jordinho came in and played devils advocate about me responding out of compulsion to respond to someone thats actually talking to me about a topic...and then you followed up with "thats very sad". youvtried to delete it but i quoted it just in time

thats just ONE of the times...but it was the lengthy one....the other one was very vague and quick as it followed the first one. cant remember much details.

No, that's for all the people who post such opinions. Not necessarily just me. I am not the only one. Tell me it's not got some truth to it. as for the thread, you'll have to do better than that. I generally try to walk a very fair line, and if I'm called on something I am not afraid to hold my hands up and apologize. If I owe you an apology for that I'll be happy to give it, but until I know exactly what it is I'm meant to have been part of, how can I? I'm not even sure you gauge what I'm saying half the time, as it often appears you take from it what you wish to and ignore the rest. So if you can be more specific, or if any of your mates can, and I have done you a disservice, you'll get an apology from me no worries. again, and I repeat, my main thing was to suggest to people that they they stop every thread becoming a Harry thread (which for a while they were) and to debate with passion, yes, but civility and without personal insult or offense.

 

[thfcsteff]

figure of speech again or generalisation, it was actually more pre emptive than anything else......at some point the revisionist powers of GG will make it out like people were not told to stop talking about harry in various threads.

Not me. I will happily say that I PUBLICLY asked people to please stop turning every single goddam thread into a 'Harry' issue, and I stand by that. This thread, the one we're in right here, is a HARRY THREAD so whoopee, have at it. Now, have I been a hypocrite with regards to the AVB/tactics thread? Looking back, not really, because myself and Joey55 had a long ranging discussion around AVB/coaching/what makes a good coach and eventually Harry. At which point I suggested to him we go to PM as I did NOT want to raise the issue in that thread any further! Besides, I was so utterly delighted to have a conversation with someone who did NOT agree with me, wasn't going to lie down and was happy to debate strongly but with manners, that I got stuck right in.

So, there you have it. That's always how I PERSONALLY behaved and felt. And I think despite what you might assume, that all the mods are trying to do is keep things from busting out into fighting in every thread, thread hijacking, and ultimately some posters not bothering because they simply don't feel comfortable...

 

[africanspurs]

No, that's for all the people who post such opinions. Not necessarily just me. I am not the only one. Tell me it's not got some truth to it. as for the thread, you'll have to do better than that. I generally try to walk a very fair line, and if I'm called on something I am not afraid to hold my hands up and apologize. If I owe you an apology for that I'll be happy to give it, but until I know exactly what it is I'm meant to have been part of, how can I? I'm not even sure you gauge what I'm saying half the time, as it often appears you take from it what you wish to and ignore the rest. So if you can be more specific, or if any of your mates can, and I have done you a disservice, you'll get an apology from me no worries. again, and I repeat, my main thing was to suggest to people that they they stop every thread becoming a Harry thread (which for a while they were) and to debate with passion, yes, but civility and without personal insult or offense.

why are we discussing this now, literally a post prior to that...actually including the crack about "yeah sure of course i'm hurt" you didnt know what i was talking about with playing a 'victim card'.

that comment looked like one to me and you cannot play that....LOL...you just cant do it. not when there are at the very least just as many people getting confronted for mentioning harry or saying he did something good or better. infact at one point there are more harry out people than there were harry in ones

dont worry..of course you wouldnt remember..you dont hold on to animosity for anything longer than 10 seconds. unfortunately that doesnt help us here. we'll just wait for jordinho or KD (who saw the grave injustice and REAL persecution directed at me...drew his sword and fought off the dragons. at which point i hid under his clothes and made a run for the exit)

 

[africanspurs]

Not me. I will happily say that I PUBLICLY asked people to please stop turning every single goddam thread into a 'Harry' issue, and I stand by that. This thread, the one we're in right here, is a HARRY THREAD so whoopee, have at it. Now, have I been a hypocrite with regards to the AVB/tactics thread? Looking back, not really, because myself and Joey55 had a long ranging discussion around AVB/coaching/what makes a good coach and eventually Harry. At which point I suggested to him we go to PM as I did NOT want to raise the issue in that thread any further! Besides, I was so utterly delighted to have a conversation with someone who did NOT agree with me, wasn't going to lie down and was happy to debate strongly but with manners, that I got stuck right in.

So, there you have it. That's always how I PERSONALLY behaved and felt. And I think despite what you might assume, that all the mods are trying to do is keep things from busting out into fighting in every thread, thread hijacking, and ultimately some posters not bothering because they simply don't feel comfortable...

yes whopee...we do have a harry thread. but there was a time not long ago..before this one came about that

a)people werent allowed to bring up harry and
b) harry thread were at the very least encouraged NOT to be created.

just cause one is here now doesnt stop what happened in the past

its good that you an djoey sorted stuff out, i wasnt even aware of any problems under all that good exchange...so i dont know what you're talking about there? i do know that people resort to insults on EVERYTHING..not just harry...harry is just the lastest one...its big but there will be something else soon enough

and i dont know why people feel like its hijacking threads, when people dispute some harry comments.

you know it goes both ways