OMT - Tottenham Hotspur - Woolwich tossers

[Bedfordspurs]

Nuno so far has struggled to adapt during play. Somewhat during half time, but when we start struggling in the first half it's pretty much lasted at least until half time. Perhaps the limited time he's had with the players has made it difficult to also work on a backup plan? Perhaps he's trusting the players to change things by improving how they implement the style he wants them to play?

He has been quite good at not making the same mistake twice in terms of the plan from the start.

He hasn't been able to improve on our fundamental issues much at all apart from the first games where we at least looked solid defensively.

Leads me to think that the particular problems from the Arsenal game won't happen again. But a plan to improve on our fundamental issues when in possession is going to take time (if it happens).

Unless this was a breaking point. Real changes in the lineup and approach style breaking point. (Not necessarily formation).

His comments afterwards made me think he now knows who he trusts and what he can or can’t do
I think that can only be valuable if he gets time
That’s the if…

 

[thfcsteff]

This is true, but it's also true that a winning mentality starts at the bottom and all the way through the hierarchy.

Whatever the decision making process was behind the plan for that first half against Arsenal it was the opposite of a winning mentality. I can't set that what Levy did years ago stopped Nuno from making a better decision.

It didn't and that was not especially the point I was looking to make. It was more about how we simply have to understand the difference between us and, say, Liverpool is how important the footballing side of operations is versus the commercial. An observation really mate...

 

[thfcsteff]

Sorry but I can't see how a professional footballer can be confused by having to play the holding role. It is perhaps the very easiest positional role to play on the whole pitch. Hojbjerg was either doing exactly what he wanted to do as he doesn't like or trust the manager so isn't listening to him and carrying out his instructions, or doing exactly what the manager wanted and the manager hasn't got a clue how to shape a team.

There lies the question because I agree, the concept of 'confusion' is abstract at its politest...

 

[Pirate55]

Nuno so far has struggled to adapt during play. Somewhat during half time, but when we start struggling in the first half it's pretty much lasted at least until half time. Perhaps the limited time he's had with the players has made it difficult to also work on a backup plan? Perhaps he's trusting the players to change things by improving how they implement the style he wants them to play?

He has been quite good at not making the same mistake twice in terms of the plan from the start.

He hasn't been able to improve on our fundamental issues much at all apart from the first games where we at least looked solid defensively.

Leads me to think that the particular problems from the Arsenal game won't happen again. But a plan to improve on our fundamental issues when in possession is going to take time (if it happens).

Unless this was a breaking point. Real changes in the lineup and approach style breaking point. (Not necessarily formation).

But it is formation that is he key.

We have a plethora of central defenders- Dier, Sanchez, Romero, Rodon, Tanganga

We have a few half decent wing backs - Reggie , Royal, Sess and even Dougherty.

We have two good ish Defensive Midfielders.

What we don't have is two outstanding central defenders . Nor two solid full backs who are comfortable in a defensive role. We don't have a Midric like deep lying midfielder nor do we have a game changing number 10 who can make defence splitting passes like Eriksen ( None of Dele, Winks , LoCelso or NDummy can successfully fill these roles) . Kane is currently a shadow of his former self and in my opinion isn't a great line leader at The best of times. Bergy isn't fast, can't beat a man, has poor distribution and can't hit a barn door. Son is excellent but streaky and Lucas has skill but is a headless chicken.

All in all, a rum lot. However, we certainly haven't been helped by Nunos team selections, formations and tactics. He must surely see we are best suited to three at the back with wingbacks covered by Hojberg and Skipp. To me that is a no brainier and would give us the foundation of a solid defence with the wingbacks giving us width and attacking capabilities ( a la Chelski and Liverpool)

With Lloris, that is 8 defensive players. The remaining three positions must be filled with attackers with a remit to run in behind and to get in and around the opposition box as often as possible. Football really isn't rocket science.

If Nuno continues with a four at the back , he must surely go.

 

[Baleforce]

But it is formation that is he key.

We have a plethora of central defenders- Dier, Sanchez, Romero, Rodon, Tanganga

We have a few half decent wing backs - Reggie , Royal, Sess and even Dougherty.

We have two good ish Defensive Midfielders.

What we don't have is two outstanding central defenders . Nor two solid full backs who are comfortable in a defensive role. We don't have a Midric like deep lying midfielder nor do we have a game changing number 10 who can make defence splitting passes like Eriksen ( None of Dele, Winks , LoCelso or NDummy can successfully fill these roles) . Kane is currently a shadow of his former self and in my opinion isn't a great line leader at The best of times. Bergy isn't fast, can't beat a man, has poor distribution and can't hit a barn door. Son is excellent but streaky and Lucas has skill but is a headless chicken.

All in all, a rum lot. However, we certainly haven't been helped by Nunos team selections, formations and tactics. He must surely see we are best suited to three at the back with wingbacks covered by Hojberg and Skipp. To me that is a no brainier and would give us the foundation of a solid defence with the wingbacks giving us width and attacking capabilities ( a la Chelski and Liverpool)

With Lloris, that is 8 defensive players. The remaining three positions must be filled with attackers with a remit to run in behind and to get in and around the opposition box as often as possible. Football really isn't rocket science.

If Nuno continues with a four at the back , he must surely go.

so he needs to drop Kane and Ndombele then? neither of them are any use in that system

I generally agree on 352, and I think we should drop those two, assuming we have enough fit players to do so, but it won't be popular with the lesser thinking fan

 

[Pirate55]

so he needs to drop Kane and Ndombele then? neither of them are any use in that system

I generally agree on 352, and I think we should drop those two, assuming we have enough fit players to do so, but it won't be popular with the lesser thinking fan

Don't agree with you that Neither Kane nor NDummy wouldn't be any use in that system. A fit and motivated Kane would be first choice in most teams. I would like to see NDummy further forward , given a totally free role with zero defensive duties, to see if he can perform that role.

 

[Bullet]

I stayed off here for a while to avoid the immediate aftermath.

I just watched the first 45 minutes again on hdmatches dot net and came into the last 3 pages of this thread to discuss some things... but @Bedfordspurs and @Finney Is Back and others were already all over it

Namely, Hojbjerg (and Dele and Ndombele).

When we had the ball Dele was literally playing up top where Moura would normally be, with Moura kinda right wing [insert Bolsonaro joke here]).

Ndombele was floating about the place on the left and pushing up... so Hojbjerg absolutely CANNOT go ahead of the ball, he just CANNOT.

Yet he was charging all over the shop, pressing their players and getting caught out of position and then we were wide open as he jogged back... as @thfcsteff said, it was like he was trying to get Nuno sacked. Incredible from a VERY professional top pro, schooled at the best schools available. Bizarre to the point of deliberate.


And you know what... we were actually doing OK in the game. The stupid narrative from Andy Townsend is that Spurs didn't try, we didn't get stuck in, we just sat back... nonsense, we almost tried too hard, we had 6 forwards pressing right up the field and left ourselves naively open.

In fact when Hojbjerg failed by 1cm to nick the ball off Xhaka on the edge of their box, we had our usual 6 forwards and Tanganga also rushed in headlong and got bypassed, so we were cleaved open ridiculously. At that point we had just had 75% possession for 5 minutes and were probing away. Then idiocy like that!

We did create some decent chances if you try to recall, Dele flicked through for Son but Son was offside... Reggie flashed a nice ball across but it eluded the front 3 of Son Kane Dele... Son SMACKED one from a tight angle which Ramsdale parried away, Kane had a free header from a corner, Tanga put in a nice cross, Ndombele actually tricked his way forwards, beat Ben White and the ref blew for half time... but every time Goons pushed forwards and we left ourselves open, everything fell perfectly for them, including Kane's sliding tackle.



So... it was a strange mix of totally vacating midfield, pushing too far forwards (!), playing too slowly when they had 2 banks of 4 or even 6-4-0, compared to our 3-0-7, everything fell perfectly for them, nothing fell for us... sheesh. What a half. But we played much better than I remembered, players were trying things, but Moura was totally 'covered' by Alli which left a huge hole when Hojbjerg pushed up.

Right, time to watch the second half. It's a good site that one above.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I stayed off here for a while to avoid the immediate aftermath.

I just watched the first 45 minutes again on hdmatches dot net and came into the last 3 pages of this thread to discuss some things... but @Bedfordspurs and @Finney Is Back and others were already all over it

Namely, Hojbjerg (and Dele and Ndombele).

When we had the ball Dele was literally playing up top where Moura would normally be, with Moura kinda right wing [insert Bolsonaro joke here]).

Ndombele was floating about the place on the left and pushing up... so Hojbjerg absolutely CANNOT go ahead of the ball, he just CANNOT.

Yet he was charging all over the shop, pressing their players and getting caught out of position and then we were wide open as he jogged back... as @thfcsteff said, it was like he was trying to get Nuno sacked. Incredible from a VERY professional top pro, schooled at the best schools available. Bizarre to the point of deliberate.


And you know what... we were actually doing OK in the game. The stupid narrative from Andy Townsend is that Spurs didn't try, we didn't get stuck in, we just sat back... nonsense, we almost tried too hard, we had 6 forwards pressing right up the field and left ourselves naively open.

In fact when Hojbjerg failed by 1cm to nick the ball off Xhaka on the edge of their box, we had our usual 6 forwards and Tanganga also rushed in headlong and got bypassed, so we were cleaved open ridiculously. At that point we had just had 75% possession for 5 minutes and were probing away. Then idiocy like that!

We did create some decent chances if you try to recall, Dele flicked through for Son but Son was offside... Reggie flashed a nice ball across but it eluded the front 3 of Son Kane Dele... Son SMACKED one from a tight angle which Ramsdale parried away, Kane had a free header from a corner, Tanga put in a nice cross, Ndombele actually tricked his way forwards, beat Ben White and the ref blew for half time... but every time Goons pushed forwards and we left ourselves open, everything fell perfectly for them, including Kane's sliding tackle.



So... it was a strange mix of totally vacating midfield, pushing too far forwards (!), playing too slowly when they had 2 banks of 4 or even 6-4-0, compared to our 3-0-7, everything fell perfectly for them, nothing fell for us... sheesh. What a half. But we played much better than I remembered, players were trying things, but Moura was totally 'covered' by Alli which left a huge hole when Hojbjerg pushed up.

Right, time to watch the second half. It's a good site that one above.

Do you think it was Nunos plans for us to play like we did or the players getting it wrong?

 

[Bullet]

OK, watching the second half now... this time not angry and drunk.

Hoj is staying much deeper, with Skipp anchoring. Obvs the Goons levels have dropped a bit as they are coasting at 3-0, but we are outplaying them, Kane could have got a pen when White kicked his foot on the edge of the box.

Kane shoots and Son isn't awake enough to get the tap in, then Kane is through on goal but chips it wide, gah that is 3 decent efforts from Kane, all a foot wide! Not like him.

Then Xhaka slaps Ndombele in the face (Son has been sent off for less), we're enjoying 73% possession and have caught up to them in terms of goal attempts, both having 8...only 2 on target for us but Kane keeps missing whereas all theirs blatted into the corner

Now the Goons are having 5 mins of possession... Ndombele off for Gil, blah blah pretty even ooooh Saka with a great shot curling around Dier but Lloris tips it wide, very good save that.

Royale is very adventurous, pushing up and in-field.

Aubamatoss, Smith Rowe and Saka working VERY hard and pressing our defence, they know Sanchez/Dier/Lloris are not at all good under pressure... our three have played a few hospital passes to each other and then hacked it out of danger... so strange that Romero didn't play, he would stop all that nonsense inviting pressure.

This is where my stream froze yesterday... ooh nice, Partey fouls Moura who crashes into Xhaka and hurts him badly, what a shame. Then Partey lazily doesn't bother to track Son and we score. Nice sliding tackle from Gil to set Reggie up for the cross.

I see Dier and Hoj are still talking and shouting and fighting, they still care at 80 mins... Saka and Smith Rowe can hardly walk off... time wasting from the Goons, all time wasting, grrr...

Ooh Moura deflected shot, saved onto the bar, what a save. That would really have changed the narrative. Especially if Kane had finished when through on goal.

Ah well on reflection we weren't nearly as bad as has been painted OTHER THAN the ridiculous vacating of midfield in the first half, we asked to be torn apart and were.

 

[Bullet]

Do you think it was Nunos plans for us to play like we did or the players getting it wrong?

Maybe Hoj got too confident or passionate and thought he could just press and press all the way to their box with no fear of what was behind him... maybe he thought someone would cover him (as when Skipp plays). Very odd though. Schoolboy really.

It did seem deliberate that Dier/Sanchez/Lloris (or Hoj when he stayed deeper) would get the ball, have no real passing option and just bunt it long. These weren't clever long balls into feet or into channels, nor were they chipped passes onto an onrushing Dele's head... they were just bunts up to Kane so he could get whacked from behind.

For the first goal Reggie just bunts a stupid little chipped pass to Kane in the middle, at which point our entire midfield realise they are ahead of the ball, it was stupid play from Reggie as well as the midfield... then for the second it was stupid from Tanga as well... just loads of stupid choices. Seemed like the Goons always had men back, we always faced a packed 8 defenders and couldn't see a path through, but left ourselves open on the transition. Nasty.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Maybe Hoj got too confident or passionate and thought he could just press and press all the way to their box with no fear of what was behind him... maybe he thought someone would cover him (as when Skipp plays). Very odd though. Schoolboy really.

It did seem deliberate that Dier/Sanchez/Lloris (or Hoj when he stayed deeper) would get the ball, have no real passing option and just bunt it long. These weren't clever long balls into feet or into channels, nor were they chipped passes onto an onrushing Dele's head... they were just bunts up to Kane so he could get whacked from behind.

For the first goal Reggie just bunts a stupid little chipped pass to Kane in the middle, at which point our entire midfield realise they are ahead of the ball, it was stupid play from Reggie as well as the midfield... then for the second it was stupid from Tanga as well... just loads of stupid choices. Seemed like the Goons always had men back, we always faced a packed 8 defenders and couldn't see a path through, but left ourselves open on the transition. Nasty.

Yep all spot on
It’s why I just can’t work out who, what and why we did it
We have seen players played out of position before (Son wingback anyone) but not players playing their position in the wrong position (if that makes sense)

 

[braineclipse]

It didn't and that was not especially the point I was looking to make. It was more about how we simply have to understand the difference between us and, say, Liverpool is how important the footballing side of operations is versus the commercial. An observation really mate...

I agree with that observation, tough I might think the football operation is somewhat better run than you think there's definitely room for improvement. I think some positive steps have been taken, but we haven't seen the benefits on the pitch yet.

Just wanted to add to your observation, but I now realise my example was a somewhat loaded one.

Just wanted to add that on addition to what I read as a top down winning mentality that you described the bottom up one is just as important. Loads of decisions every day, on and off the pitch. Players training with the right intensity and mindset, focus areas on development in training, tactical decisions, player selection etc etc etc. Winning mentality also comes from making more of those decisions right rather than wrong.

Winning mentality isn't either/or, its something that you can have more of or less of on a spectrum.

In this particular game mistakes were made, I think we agree. In previous games too. There's a limit to how many mistakes like that can be made and the result being an increased winning mentality. Had Klopp made a lot of these mistakes at key points at Liverpool thet wouldn't be held up as an example of good top down winning mentality being developed.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I agree with that observation, tough I might think the football operation is somewhat better run than you think there's definitely room for improvement. I think some positive steps have been taken, but we haven't seen the benefits on the pitch yet.

Just wanted to add to your observation, but I now realise my example was a somewhat loaded one.

Just wanted to add that on addition to what I read as a top down winning mentality that you described the bottom up one is just as important. Loads of decisions every day, on and off the pitch. Players training with the right intensity and mindset, focus areas on development in training, tactical decisions, player selection etc etc etc. Winning mentality also comes from making more of those decisions right rather than wrong.

Winning mentality isn't either/or, its something that you can have more of or less of on a spectrum.

In this particular game mistakes were made, I think we agree. In previous games too. There's a limit to how many mistakes like that can be made and the result being an increased winning mentality. Had Klopp made a lot of these mistakes at key points at Liverpool thet wouldn't be held up as an example of good top down winning mentality being developed.

I agree the club has made a lot of changes on the footy side
They normally take a period for time to reap the benefits from as you say
The shorter term nature of football though is that I read an article yesterday saying we were robbed by buying Gil and giving them Lamela… that was a Spanish paper.
That’s the perfect short term view IMO

 

[glasgowspur]

I agree the club has made a lot of changes on the footy side
They normally take a period for time to reap the benefits from as you say
The shorter term nature of football though is that I read an article yesterday saying we were robbed by buying Gil and giving them Lamela… that was a Spanish paper.
That’s the perfect short term view IMO

The lamela - gil move is a strange one for me.
Lamela wasn't pushing for a move, gil is one for the future and regarded as not ready.
Nuno is trying to find a way for the squad to play, we have a few players who's commitment is questionable and yet we move on lamela? A player who has been through how many managers with never a grumble, loves it here and always gives his all.
A talented player, despite what many on here say, who will turn up. Surely we could have got gil in a straight money deal without moving on a player the manager never really had a chance to look at.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The lamela - gil move is a strange one for me.
Lamela wasn't pushing for a move, gil is one for the future and regarded as not ready.
Nuno is trying to find a way for the squad to play, we have a few players who's commitment is questionable and yet we move on lamela? A player who has been through how many managers with never a grumble, loves it here and always gives his all.
A talented player, despite what many on here say, who will turn up. Surely we could have got gil in a straight money deal without moving on a player the manager never really had a chance to look at.

Lamela needed the move. He is the one of several who needed to go for their one careers

 

[SpurMeUp]

The lamela - gil move is a strange one for me.
Lamela wasn't pushing for a move, gil is one for the future and regarded as not ready.
Nuno is trying to find a way for the squad to play, we have a few players who's commitment is questionable and yet we move on lamela? A player who has been through how many managers with never a grumble, loves it here and always gives his all.
A talented player, despite what many on here say, who will turn up. Surely we could have got gil in a straight money deal without moving on a player the manager never really had a chance to look at.

Gil is the better player too. Only 21. Much more to come from him.

 

[glasgowspur]

Gil is the better player too. Only 21. Much more to come from him.

Its not hard to argue that gil will be a better player, but currently, for us, in unsettled team with a new manager and a squad with several players showing a lack of commitment it seems like a long-term decision that could hurt us short term.
Could we have got gil without lamela going the way? Or even have offered glc instead?

 

[glasgowspur]

Lamela needed the move. He is the one of several who needed to go for their one careers

Agreed, but as much as I like lamela I'm more interested in whats best for spurs, and i think this was a strange move.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Agreed, but as much as I like lamela I'm more interested in whats best for spurs, and i think this was a strange move.

I think getting Gil is the better move for us
Losing a squad player

 

[glasgowspur]

I think getting Gil is the better move for us
Losing a squad player

Long term absolutely, and everything is such a brick show at the moment maybe it will be quicker, but if the plan was ship out lamela and replace him for someone that migbt come good next year then that doesn't make nuch sense to me.
Plan for the future sure, be we still need to concentrate on the here and now.