***OMT - Tottenham Hotspur vs. Saudi Sportswashing Machine***

[P.D.]

Agree but he should stop his watch and then the pantomime becomes irrelevant. Imagine a booking being given for failing to leave by the shortest route, causing a second yellow so the sub can't be made! But just giving the time back means genuine or not the opportunity is the same for all to play.

This has been a problem for years, refs do give yellows for time wasting but I've never seen someone get 2 yellows either for timewasting on the pitch or being slow to get off it. Same for GK's, never get a 2nd yellow so they know they can do whatever they like.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Just watched the goals back. First one, it’s a foul but I can see why it wasn’t given.

Second one, Hugo’s pass is brick and Sess should foul but Lenglet? fudge me. That’s absolutely abysmal defending. You show him the line, you have to be on your toes and ready to back off quickly. He got done really badly there.

 

[braineclipse]

Can we now bury this "Conte should play 3-5-2 more" narrative after the latest two games?

Worked well as a purely counter attacking system as long as we could do only that. Other than that with limited creativity across the entire midfield 5 it's obviously very limited as a formation for us right now. Leaves our limited wing backs even more isolated when attacking as we don't have the wide forwards there. Doesn't seem to give us more defensive solidity or "control" either. Unless, again as a purely counter attacking system, which we're very capable of playing with a 3-4-3 as well.

This is not a 3-5-2 squad. I think the decision was made last season to continue to build the squad for 3-4-3. It has it's problems, but none that are sufficiently fixed by going 3-5-2.

Yes, before anyone points it out. Conte didn't have much choice in the last couple of games. Not talking about that.

 

[billyiddo]

United was no different to Arsenal & Chelsea away, totally dominated. Saudi Sportswashing Machine we actually played ok but once 2 down we were always going to find it hard to create v the meanest defense in the league. Not sure anything has been proven wrt formation after those 2 games.

 

[Junior19]

Just watched the goals back. First one, it’s a foul but I can see why it wasn’t given.

Second one, Hugo’s pass is brick and Sess should foul but Lenglet? fudge me. That’s absolutely abysmal defending. You show him the line, you have to be on your toes and ready to back off quickly. He got done really badly there.

For the first one for me, I understand why Hugo gets so riled up about it. The rules (or the interpretation of them) changes so much depending on wether you are inside or outside the box. Inside the box, more or less any slight touch on the goalkeeper equals a foul, and a free kick. Outside the box? Crosscheck-tackle straight out of NHL perfectly legal.
I actually want a bit less protection for goalkeepers. Or to rephrase, I want more equal rules inside and outside the box for both keepers and others. Problem is, that require refs with cojones (figurativly, not literally) both on the pitch and in the VAR room.

 

[Mikey10]

For the first one for me, I understand why Hugo gets so riled up about it. The rules (or the interpretation of them) changes so much depending on wether you are inside or outside the box. Inside the box, more or less any slight touch on the goalkeeper equals a foul, and a free kick. Outside the box? Crosscheck-tackle straight out of NHL perfectly legal.
I actually want a bit less protection for goalkeepers. Or to rephrase, I want more equal rules inside and outside the box for both keepers and others. Problem is, that require refs with cojones (figurativly, not literally) both on the pitch and in the VAR room.

As they said MOTD2, as soon as a keeper leaves his box he becomes an outfield player and is treated as such under the rules.

The goal was 100% on Hugo imo: tinkle-poor starting position, slow decision making and attempts to be too smart by attempting to control the ball when he should have just put his foot through it. Wilson simply stood his ground.

 

[braineclipse]

United was no different to Arsenal & Chelsea away, totally dominated. Saudi Sportswashing Outfit we actually played ok but once 2 down we were always going to find it hard to create v the meanest defense in the league. Not sure anything has been proven wrt formation after those 2 games.

Wasn't one of the arguments for 3-5-2 that it would give us more control of games in those situations like against United?

Yeah, those 30 minutes were good. When we could sit back and counter attack, just like we've been doing with 3-4-3. When the game state changed to one where we usually struggle it was no better than 3-4-3 at the very least.

What I think has been proven is that going to a 3-5-2 isn't some easy or obvious way to improve us short term. We looked no better, arguably worse.

Not saying we should never play 3-5-2 or that it's inherently a worse formation. It can have it's uses even with our squad. But it's not a solution to our problems. I mean, just look at that back three and midfield five that started against Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Other than turnovers or Kane magic how does that set of 8 deeper players do the ball progression or creativity required?

 

[billyiddo]

I think you're uncharacteristically drawing conclusions off of a very small sample size because it happens to suit your position tbh mate - I'd be giving it a bit more than a couple of games, especially given performances have been regressing in general lately and time between games is short (meaning less time to work on a change in shape?)

 

[braineclipse]

I think you're uncharacteristically drawing conclusions off of a very small sample size because it happens to suit your position tbh mate - I'd be giving it a bit more than a couple of games, especially given performances have been regressing in general lately and time between games is short (meaning less time to work on a change in shape?)

That may be, I never thought of a 3-5-2 as a particularly good solution with this squad.

I guess my disagreement is less with you and more with others I've seen post what I've at least read as Conte being stubborn and that if he would just play 3-5-2 we'd see improvements.

With injuries Conte may have no other options than to stick with the 3-5-2 for a bit longer, giving us that time and sample size. So I may be proven well and truly wrong and a small sample size concluding nitwit.

To qualify my opinion somewhat at least (seems fair), I think at the very least Conte's reluctance to play a 3-5-2 should be viewed with more understanding than it has been from some.

To successfully implement and play a 3-5-2 would probably take more time than we've seen. I struggle to see why that would be worth it over continuing to work on improving our play in the more tested, and proven 3-4-3. Which imo is more suited to our squad.

 

[billyiddo]

Our problems are more player related than formation atm - as I've mentioned in the Sess or Dier thread recently our defenders are poor and tactically need covering and until we have more solid individuals across the board there, who are also comfortable in possession, I'm not sure formation will make too much difference either way. I'm not particularly arguing for 352, just that it's a bit too quick to be declaring it a loss atm

One positive for me is that without Kulusevski available in the 343 we miss the link between midfield & attack that he provides and i thought when Skipp was on the pitch v Newcastke we saw signs that the extra central midfielder could provide that, more so than any option i can think of in 343 (without Kulu)

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Our problems are more player related than formation atm - as I've mentioned in the Sess or Dier thread recently our defenders are poor and tactically need covering and until we have more solid individuals across the board there, who are also comfortable in possession, I'm not sure formation will make too much difference either way. I'm not particularly arguing for 352, just that it's a bit too quick to be declaring it a loss atm

One positive for me is that without Kulusevski available in the 343 we miss the link between midfield & attack that he provides and i thought when Skipp was on the pitch v Newcastke we saw signs that the extra central midfielder could provide that, more so than any option i can think of in 343 (without Kulu)

The link only works if there is still support to the attack
Without Kulu we can’t play 3-4-3 IMO a sit means shoe horning someone into a role that doesn’t suit them
Big for 3-5-2 to work the wing backs have to be players who can score. Otherwise we’re relating solely on Kane and son to score in attack

 

[Jurgen the German]

For me, the main issue is we have too many players in the team who aren’t comfortable on the ball. Lloris and Sanchez are dreadful passers, Dier and Hojbjerg are ok most of the time but poor at others, neither I would say excel at distribution. Not to mention Royal as well. I get it that Sanchez isn’t a starter normally but it’s a big issue to have so many weak passers in the spine of the team. Bentancur is by far the best when it comes to the CB’s and CM’s.

 

[billyiddo]

The link only works if there is still support to the attack
Without Kulu we can’t play 3-4-3 IMO a sit means shoe horning someone into a role that doesn’t suit them
Big for 3-5-2 to work the wing backs have to be players who can score. Otherwise we’re relating solely on Kane and son to score in attack

we are currently caught between a rock and hard place without Kulu - i mean on paper maybe Spence as RWB in 352 will give us more threat down that side but that's far from a certainty at this stage and then may leave our defense more exposed.

Having a player like Maddison to call on now would make a world of difference

 

[Bedfordspurs]

we are currently caught between a rock and hard place without Kulu - i mean on paper maybe Spence as RWB in 352 will give us more threat down that side but that's far from a certainty at this stage and then may leave our defense more exposed.

Having a player like Maddison to call on now would make a world of difference

It would
I’m convinced we will go for that type of player in January
Doherty would be perfect in that role… he got 8 and 7 goals playing there in his last seasons at wolves. I’d love to see Spence tried but we all know that ain’t happening

 

[braineclipse]

For me, the main issue is we have too many players in the team who aren’t comfortable on the ball. Lloris and Sanchez are dreadful passers, Dier and Hojbjerg are ok most of the time but poor at others, neither I would say excel at distribution. Not to mention Royal as well. I get it that Sanchez isn’t a starter normally but it’s a big issue to have so many weak passers in the spine of the team. Bentancur is by far the best when it comes to the CB’s and CM’s.

Bentancur agreed.

Also think Romero is rather good at this. He's not as smooth technically as Bentancur, but plays with a lot of purpose and bravery. Good vision too. And his close control and passing are still very good even though not elite level.

I think Davies is underrated in this regard by many.

Our goal medium to long term should be to have no weak spots in this regard in the squad. There isn't room for it imo. I don't include Dier or PEH as weak spots even though they're not at the level of the best in the squad, never mind best around.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Bentancur agreed.

Also think Romero is rather good at this. He's not as smooth technically as Bentancur, but plays with a lot of purpose and bravery. Good vision too. And his close control and passing are still very good even though not elite level.

I think Davies is underrated in this regard by many.

Our goal medium to long term should be to have no weak spots in this regard in the squad. There isn't room for it imo. I don't include Dier or PEH as weak spots even though they're not at the level of the best in the squad, never mind best around.

The goal for me is to have minimal drop off when we have to change a player
The drop off form Romero to Sanchez us about 20% due to his inability to pass
Davies to lenglet is probably nothing much and just Perosnal choice
Dier to who???
Kulu to anyone on the right I’d a BIG as we don’t have any alternative player that side who plays his way
I’m theory the CMs are Sinai or in style and quality and again it will mainly be personal choice
I think Doherty and soence are similar with slightly different strengths, but I’d need to a lot more of Spence to say that with any confidence
Royal defends slightly better than Doherty but the drop off in attack is noteble
The issue of course is when your playing your back up RCB, a defensive RWB and no one attacking in front of them, that side becomes easy to negate (eveb Watford let royal have that side of the pitch)
You will always have disparity between your every best and their cover but our disparity is high because of the technical nature of the first choices. That’s huge
Chelsea can replace be de Bruyne with mahrez for example. Similar in style for a start…. That’s why there the top side.

 

[braineclipse]

The goal for me is to have minimal drop off when we have to change a player
The drop off form Romero to Sanchez us about 20% due to his inability to pass
Davies to lenglet is probably nothing much and just Perosnal choice
Dier to who???
Kulu to anyone on the right I’d a BIG as we don’t have any alternative player that side who plays his way
I’m theory the CMs are Sinai or in style and quality and again it will mainly be personal choice
I think Doherty and soence are similar with slightly different strengths, but I’d need to a lot more of Spence to say that with any confidence
Royal defends slightly better than Doherty but the drop off in attack is noteble
The issue of course is when your playing your back up RCB, a defensive RWB and no one attacking in front of them, that side becomes easy to negate (eveb Watford let royal have that side of the pitch)
You will always have disparity between your every best and their cover but our disparity is high because of the technical nature of the first choices. That’s huge
Chelsea can replace be de Bruyne with mahrez for example. Similar in style for a start…. That’s why there the top side.

Similarity in style, fit to the system imo just as important as overall quality (to a reasonable point). Of course someone like City have ridiculous strength in depth and quality on the bench that I don't think we can outright match. But we can do a lot better.

Obviously to really push on we need both outright quality and fit for the system. And we probably need to improve our squad by making current first choice players into squad players by signing new first choice players, but not in a lot of positions. That gives me hope that it's doable.

I think the consequences of having one or two players that are substandard technically or with their fit to the system are quite large. Greater than the individual drop in quality would perhaps indicate.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Similarity in style, fit to the system imo just as important as overall quality (to a reasonable point). Of course someone like City have ridiculous strength in depth and quality on the bench that I don't think we can outright match. But we can do a lot better.

Obviously to really push on we need both outright quality and fit for the system. And we probably need to improve our squad by making current first choice players into squad players by signing new first choice players, but not in a lot of positions. That gives me hope that it's doable.

I think the consequences of having one or two players that are substandard technically or with their fit to the system are quite large. Greater than the individual drop in quality would perhaps indicate.

I think the last window was about improving the squad with players who conte wants to play the system. Lenglet being a prime example of one that’s fitted in on the pitch despite not speaking English

Now it’s about players who can play first team and usurp another player

People have crowed about arsenals signings… but the only one who starts from their recent splurge is Jesus. Zichenko and Viera have been injured loads and the rest are inexperience kids
The key for them is saliba has come back after 2 years away and they have had no injuries to their first 11 so far. We, like most sides haven’t had that luxury and it shows

 

[Pirate55]

Can we now bury this "Conte should play 3-5-2 more" narrative after the latest two games?

Worked well as a purely counter attacking system as long as we could do only that. Other than that with limited creativity across the entire midfield 5 it's obviously very limited as a formation for us right now. Leaves our limited wing backs even more isolated when attacking as we don't have the wide forwards there. Doesn't seem to give us more defensive solidity or "control" either. Unless, again as a purely counter attacking system, which we're very capable of playing with a 3-4-3 as well.

This is not a 3-5-2 squad. I think the decision was made last season to continue to build the squad for 3-4-3. It has it's problems, but none that are sufficiently fixed by going 3-5-2.

Yes, before anyone points it out. Conte didn't have much choice in the last couple of games. Not talking about that.

As you suggest, Conte didn't have much choice but to go 3-5-2 with the players available to him on Sunday. But for 20 minutes it worked well and we created a lot of chances ( Son could have had a hattrick in this period) . However, as soon as they scored , it all fell apart.
I would like to know why no journalist asks Conte the tough questions -

1. Why don't you change things earlier when you can see things are failing? Same criticism against United where we allowed 28 shots against us?
2. Why do you persist with playing out from the back with players unsuited to do so?
3. Why do you insist Son defends corners and free kicks? Wouldn't he be better further up the pitch?
4. With Peresic on the pitch and able to deliver an inswinging corner from the right, why was Son taking an out swinging corner - which he promptly put straight out of play
5. When chasing the game and needing a goal, why did you bring on two defenders - Davies and Doherty?
6. With nothing to lose, on a wet pitch against big defenders, why didn't you bring on Gil and Spence for some pace, guile and creativity?

I think we fans deserve some answers to these questions.

 

[Lilbaz]

As you suggest, Conte didn't have much choice but to go 3-5-2 with the players available to him on Sunday. But for 20 minutes it worked well and we created a lot of chances ( Son could have had a hattrick in this period) . However, as soon as they scored , it all fell apart.
I would like to know why no journalist asks Conte the tough questions -

1. Why don't you change things earlier when you can see things are failing? Same criticism against United where we allowed 28 shots against us?
2. Why do you persist with playing out from the back with players unsuited to do so?
3. Why do you insist Son defends corners and free kicks? Wouldn't he be better further up the pitch?
4. With Peresic on the pitch and able to deliver an inswinging corner from the right, why was Son taking an out swinging corner - which he promptly put straight out of play
5. When chasing the game and needing a goal, why did you bring on two defenders - Davies and Doherty?
6. With nothing to lose, on a wet pitch against big defenders, why didn't you bring on Gil and Spence for some pace, guile and creativity?

I think we fans deserve some answers to these questions.

Because he is trying to get the team to play the way he wants them to.