*** OMT: Tottenham Hotspur vs. Leicester City ***

[Finney Is Back]

Or play Rodon who appeared to to have those attributes with Dier

but my issue stands

we would get turned over more and more and be caught out if we have midfielders who can’t hold the ball for us. We have a CM whose sole attribute is his ability to stop the opposition but by default it stops us playing

this still reminds me of last year when you said fixing CM would fix the full backs. We non-figuratively have CMs covering the full backs who strangely now don’t attack for fear of being caught out as the midfielder can’t pass the ball to them

Fixing CM has helped to fix the fullbacks though. Our fullbacks no longer look poor defensively (Aurier’s brainless moment yesterday aside). Our fullbacks still do get forward at times, it is just very hard to with such a low block.

I’d be happy to see Jose try Rodon and Dier, especially if that gets us 10 or 20 yards higher up the pitch.

I also disagree somewhat with your assessment of Sissoko, he actually rarely loses the ball. He certainly doesn’t have vision to play a killer pass but he actually doesn’t give it away often either.

 

[elltrev]

Yes, thus also making your comparison of Davies and Dier quite a mute one...

They are different players, with different tasks, comparing them by one isolated statistic without factoring in their duties is not going to give any meaningful answer.

You can say a lot about Sissoko, but he ain't no Tom Huddlestone, nor has he ever tried to be. Nor is he a Luka Modric, or a Rafael Van Der Vaart. Yet he is measured by the same stats, and judging by some of them, he should be a contender for the FIFA-awards, team of the year. We know of course that he is nowhere near that.

Stats are only as good as the analysis of them. Stats alone, useless.

I’m not sure about that - as far as I can see Sissoko is crap statistically. Few passes, mediocre completion %, few tackles and interceptions, few shots / dribbles / key passes, very low xGbuildup (if you like that kind of thing). There may be an argument that stats alone can make a player look better than he is, but I’d argue Sissoko is not a good example of that!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Fixing CM has helped to fix the fullbacks though. Our fullbacks no longer look poor defensively (Aurier’s brainless moment yesterday aside). Our fullbacks still do get forward at times, it is just very hard to with such a low block.

I’d be happy to see Jose try Rodon and Dier, especially if that gets us 10 or 20 yards higher up the pitch.

I also disagree somewhat with your assessment of Sissoko, he actually rarely loses the ball. He certainly doesn’t have vision to play a killer pass but he actually doesn’t give it away often either.

He doesn’t look the ball because he absconds any responsibility with it. It’s because of his limitations we can’t launch anything from midfield so we have a player whose sole purpose is to stop attacks and it stops ours too
Can be argued also buying better fullbacks has fixed the full backs

 

[Finney Is Back]

I’m not sure about that - as far as I can see Sissoko is crap statistically. Few passes, mediocre completion %, few tackles and interceptions, few shots / dribbles / key passes, very low xGbuildup (if you like that kind of thing). There may be an argument that stats alone can make a player look better than he is, but I’d argue Sissoko is not a good example of that!

He actually has the third highest numbers per 90 in the squad for pass completion, second best for interceptions and 7th for tackles (only Hojbjerg higher of the midfielders). He also has made more passes than any other midfielder other than Hojbjerg for us.

I don’t think that Sissoko is the answer for us long, or even medium term (I’ve advocated Soumare from Lille to replace him previously, Bissouma from Brighton would also be a good shout). The problem is that right now he is the best of a reasonably bad bunch for that specific position in Jose’s team. The fact that we are so deep and on the back foot means that we’re not getting our ball players like Ndombele and Lo Celso on the ball in the right parts of the pitch. If you look at our teams attacking stats they are pretty anaemic for everyone other than Kane and Son. I’ve noticed that teams now seem to be really concentrating on picking up Kane as he drops deep, thus taking away our single way of creating chances on the break.

We have become very predictable in attack and I think Jose needs to do something about that. The counter attack can then become a situational play instead of our entire game plan.

 

[Finney Is Back]

He doesn’t look the ball because he absconds any responsibility with it. It’s because of his limitations we can’t launch anything from midfield so we have a player whose sole purpose is to stop attacks and it stops ours too
Can be argued also buying better fullbacks has fixed the full backs

Sorry, I don’t get your first sentence?..... we have a better (attacking) fullback on the left. We have the same one on the right.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Sorry, I don’t get your first sentence?..... we have a better (attacking) fullback on the left. We have the same one on the right.

But by buying a better right back the old one has upped his game abs made fewer errors. Although more goals have come from his errors than the other right back.

sissoko gets the ball and does a Sanchez. He passes it to someone who he expects to do something with it and then resets to block space in case we get attacked again because we’re now down a man in midfield

 

[Bishop]

The lack of controlled possession comes from our team being so deep. It is almost impossible to play football from where we have to start out. Yesterday though, I thought we were out worked.... Ndombele and Lo Celso played an equal part of that.

The inability to progress out of the low back is due to the poor possession players we have sitting in that low block. Hojberg is decent on the ball and can move it around decently but he's by himself. Ndombele and GLC were stationed away from our goal and the ball had to beat the press (which admittedly wasn't that aggressive) before it got to them.

I rate both players but I think neither are suited to playing in front of the ball, they have great touch but they want to be getting the ball deeper and moving it forward rather than sitting at the tip of the three surrounded by defenders and waiting for slow late passes.

We need to get one of them playing deeper, the extra few seconds their ability will buy us allows Reguillion and/or Aurier to start moving forward in the knowledge they will recieve a good quality pass.

Workrate as a CM may an issue for Ndombele but I believe we saw in Lo Celso last season that he is more than capable of playing at the pace the PL requires

 

[elltrev]

He actually has the third highest numbers per 90 in the squad for pass completion, second best for interceptions and 7th for tackles (only Hojbjerg higher of the midfielders). He also has made more passes than any other midfielder other than Hojbjerg for us.

I don’t think that Sissoko is the answer for us long, or even medium term (I’ve advocated Soumare from Lille to replace him previously, Bissouma from Brighton would also be a good shout). The problem is that right now he is the best of a reasonably bad bunch for that specific position in Jose’s team. The fact that we are so deep and on the back foot means that we’re not getting our ball players like Ndombele and Lo Celso on the ball in the right parts of the pitch. If you look at our teams attacking stats they are pretty anaemic for everyone other than Kane and Son. I’ve noticed that teams now seem to be really concentrating on picking up Kane as he drops deep, thus taking away our single way of creating chances on the break.

We have become very predictable in attack and I think Jose needs to do something about that. The counter attack can then become a situational play instead of our entire game plan.

Just on the stats:

I think you might be taking the stats at face value, rather than adusting based on minutes played? Also I think it makes sense to compare to other CMs (particularly Hojbjerg and Winks), rather than the whole squad. Here are stats from WhoScored per 90 mins:



Combined tackles and interceptions not bad, but worse than Hojbjerg and no better than Lo Celso. (Winks terrible here, though admittedly from a small sample).
Pass completion % a little worse than Hojbjerg and Winks, as well as with less long passes and key passes.
And number of passes (AvgP) WAY lower than Hojbjerg and Winks, and also lower than Lo Celso or Ndombele (despite them mostly playing higher up the pitch).

On reflection I agree his number of interceptions is good, but on everything else here he's sub-par to woeful for a deep midfielder IMO.

---

On your point that 'The problem is that right now he is the best of a reasonably bad bunch for that specific position in Jose’s team':

Personally I'd like Mourinho to start trusting Ndombele or Lo Celso in CM alongside Hojberg, at least when we're not playing the very top teams. And certainly when we're losing 1-0 at home at HT like yesterday! It's Jose's choice to play so defensively, to the point that he feels the need for Hojbjerg AND Sissoko - it's not as if he's obliged to. Lo Celso in particular is no slouch defensively, nor was Ndombele at Lyon.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Just on the stats:

I think you might be taking the stats at face value, rather than adusting based on minutes played? Also I think it makes sense to compare to other CMs (particularly Hojbjerg and Winks), rather than the whole squad. Here are stats from WhoScored per 90 mins:

View attachment 10344

Combined tackles and interceptions not bad, but worse than Hojbjerg and no better than Lo Celso. (Winks terrible here, though admittedly from a small sample).
Pass completion % a little worse than Hojbjerg and Winks, as well as with less long passes and key passes.
And number of passes (AvgP) WAY lower than Hojbjerg and Winks, and also lower than Lo Celso or Ndombele (despite them mostly playing higher up the pitch).

On reflection I agree his number of interceptions is good, but on everything else here he's sub-par to woeful for a deep midfielder IMO.

---

On your point that 'The problem is that right now he is the best of a reasonably bad bunch for that specific position in Jose’s team':

Personally I'd like Mourinho to start trusting Ndombele or Lo Celso in CM alongside Hojberg, at least when we're not playing the very top teams. And certainly when we're losing 1-0 at home at HT like yesterday! It's Jose's choice to play so defensively, to the point that he feels the need for Hojbjerg AND Sissoko - it's not as if he's obliged to. Lo Celso in particular is no slouch defensively, nor was Ndombele at Lyon.

I was also looking at per 90 stats.... The stats you present are the ones I was looking at.

I think Mourinho doesn’t trust the other two in there because they don’t have a defensive mindset and aren’t naturals at tracking opponents runs, getting goal side and covering space. Still, I wouldn’t mind having a look at it in a couple of games to see how it works.

I do maintain though, that we’d struggle to create attacks at the moment even with a peak Zidane playing instead of Sissoko.... when we pick up possession we are really deep, typically with only one or two tightly marked players, with their back to goal ahead of the ball. It is almost impossible to transition to attack in that position, especially as teams are now prepared for Kane to drop into the hole and getting their DM to get tight on him when he does this. We could look to move Ndombele deeper and get him to pick up the ball deep and complete a dribble which would open up space, but that is a very high risk tactic as he will lose the ball on occasions.

I just think we have most, if not all, the players to play further up the pitch, even with Sissoko playing, as he is good at ball recovery, cutting off the space and in one on one situations when our opponent attacks. There can be only two things that stop us playing higher up.... A lack of pace at centre back (possibly?) or our manager wanting us to defend a line somewhere close to the edge of our penalty area. If playing against us though all you need do is stop Kane from being able to turn with the ball and you dry up our attacking threat completely from everything other than a long ball over the top from Lloris or one of our two centre backs.

 

[elltrev]

I was also looking at per 90 stats.... The stats you present are the ones I was looking at.

I think Mourinho doesn’t trust the other two in there because they don’t have a defensive mindset and aren’t naturals at tracking opponents runs, getting goal side and covering space. Still, I wouldn’t mind having a look at it in a couple of games to see how it works.

I do maintain though, that we’d struggle to create attacks at the moment even with a peak Zidane playing instead of Sissoko.... when we pick up possession we are really deep, typically with only one or two tightly marked players, with their back to goal ahead of the ball. It is almost impossible to transition to attack in that position, especially as teams are now prepared for Kane to drop into the hole and getting their DM to get tight on him when he does this. We could look to move Ndombele deeper and get him to pick up the ball deep and complete a dribble which would open up space, but that is a very high risk tactic as he will lose the ball on occasions.

I just think we have most, if not all, the players to play further up the pitch, even with Sissoko playing, as he is good at ball recovery, cutting off the space and in one on one situations when our opponent attacks. There can be only two things that stop us playing higher up.... A lack of pace at centre back (possibly?) or our manager wanting us to defend a line somewhere close to the edge of our pelanty area. If playing against us though all you need do is stop Kane from being able to turn with the ball and you dry up our attacking threat completely from everything other than a long ball over the top from Lloris or one of our two centre backs.

Yeah I agree it's very hard to keep possession or break effectively when everyone is so deep. Personally I think it's just the Jose way - it's not as if Toby and Dier are absurdly slow, and we could push up a bit without leaving acres of space behind them to cover.

 

[parklane1]

.

I don't think anyone NOW believes the title is in grasp, but let's not be shy here, if you're going to TRUTHFULLY tell me that heading into the 90th minute at Anfield, knowing that a point from that match would be a major disappointment given what we created, that you would not have expected a title-tilt for real, then I'd say you're either a guru of immense omnipotence or simply a gun-shy supporter who could not grapple with what we all grapple with (past vs present). Understandable. But we were told Jose is a results man. And he was getting them.


Again, in the spirit of debate my friend; we all want the same thing. COYS.

Sorry for cutting down your post mate, some of it i can agree with but i wanted to focus on the piece above. I can TRUTHFULLY tell you that i and many fans i know never thought we would/could win the title ( and i am neither a guru or a gun shy supporter). I believe we can make a go of finishing in the top four but winning it is beyond us at this moment and to be honest if there are a few supporters who believe we can then in all honesty they are fooling themselves and are getting themselves in a position to be let down and angry.

And as you say its all in the spirit of debate.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Sorry for cutting down your post mate, some of it i can agree with but i wanted to focus on the piece above. I can TRUTHFULLY tell you that i and many fans i know never thought we would/could win the title ( and i am neither a guru or a gun shy supporter). I believe we can make a go of finishing in the top four but winning it is beyond us at this moment and to be honest if there are a few supporters who believe we can then in all honesty they are fooling themselves and are getting themselves in a position to be let down and angry.

And as you say its all in the spirit of debate.

As a general question, what more do you think we need to have a title winning team parklane?

 

[parklane1]

As a general question, what more do you think we need to have a title winning team parklane?

Well to start with we probably need the players to BELIEVE they can be the best team, as you know i have doubted our "winning mentality" over the last few years, this has improved under Jose but we still have a way to go on that. As others have said a CB who is robust with skill to play alongside Dier/Rodon. i think Toby has been a little better this season but for me he has got to the age his body will not do what his mind is telling it to do, there is no doubt he has been a top CB but alas those days have passed ( imo).

As good as Tanguy and Lo Celso are i am still not convinced they play well together ( however it is still early days for them so it may happen), as many others have said Sissoko is not really good enough( all though i do not believe he is as bad as some have made out). However i have said and believe that its work in progress and this season should be seen as just that. That does not mean we should not try and win every game ( i believe/think we have a very good chance of making the top four and even could win a cup (i hope so anyway).

 

[Finney Is Back]

So in terms of new signings.... Just a new centre back and a direct replacement for Sissoko?

 

[parklane1]

So in terms of new signings.... Just a new centre back and a direct replacement for Sissoko?

I know this may sound daft to s ome fans but we do have a good squad, we( Jose) just needs to build up the confidence and get more games into them as a team but yes they would be the priority for me.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I know this may sound daft to s ome fans but we do have a good squad, we( Jose) just needs to build up the confidence and get more games into them as a team but yes they would be the priority for me.

And we do have a new CB who has been given 1 start. Maybe we give him a chance

 

[StephenH]

And we do have a new CB who has been given 1 start. Maybe we give him a chance

He’s just a baby!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

He’s just a baby!

He isn’t
I mean he abs more experience than the lad who played vs us for Liverpool for example

 

[StephenH]

He isn’t
I mean he abs more experience than the lad who played vs us for Liverpool for example

He Is a very good baby who is trusted!
I doubt Jose will bring Rodon in in the league while Toby can still walk!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

He Is a very good baby who is trusted!
I doubt Jose will bring Rodon in in the league while Toby can still walk!

Shame Toby can’t jump