OMT Tottenham Hotspur vs Hoffenheim

[braineclipse]

It's actually great to analyse these goals together.

For that first goal, looking closer the biggest issue is Davies's physiology. It's having no pace to get from the 18 yard line to the 6 yard line comfortably so you can set yourself. That's the awful position I was talking about, not the starting one. Ben then is awkward because it needs the right foot and he's caught thinking about the more natural left foot and the guy has stolen the march on him. He is wrong side. He also needed Gray to play the offisde trap. Gray was using his own instincts and young legs to think he could save the day by sweeping all around the back rather than letting the guy drift off. It was a great disguised ball though. Most of our lot thought it was coming over the left back side.

We can analyse all day, but the primary basis for our defence is the line that needs to be held and the use of the offside track. All these guys need to trust it and learn it inside out if that is the chosen way. Some won't be suited as they don't have the pace to play within that system. That leaves question marks on Dragusin and Davies. Dragusin is our box defender who might just about make the full transition to it, and give us his other strengths. Davies doesn't bring much to the table in my opinion. Phillips and Vuskovic won't be seen so much until they've had it drilled into them but at least have the physiology. Ben doesn't.

Your point about the midfield role is massively key. It won't work without the pressing and even the overload. That goes for the 2 wide players as well. We will smother teams eventually with the right players and rotation.

Attacker has a bit of a running start, Davies has to get going from standing still. Those situations will always favour the attacker as long as the cross is good enough.

Davies is neither tall or quick. Those are his main weaknesses for sure. Davies has a lot of other qualities though.

Pace is important for a CB in a high line system like ours, but I think the importance of it gets overstated somewhat at times.

I think both our backup CBs could be upgraded on. But I'm not sure it's the best use of our resources seeing as we have other areas we need to improve and have some talented youngsters, particularly Vuskovic.

I don't think Dragusin is a good enough profile fit on the ball long term unless he takes significant steps in his close control, passing and being comfortable under pressure. To me that is as important as pace in this system for a CB.

 

[Muttley]

Attacker has a bit of a running start, Davies has to get going from standing still. Those situations will always favour the attacker as long as the cross is good enough.

Davies is neither tall or quick. Those are his main weaknesses for sure. Davies has a lot of other qualities though.

Pace is important for a CB in a high line system like ours, but I think the importance of it gets overstated somewhat at times.

I think both our backup CBs could be upgraded on. But I'm not sure it's the best use of our resources seeing as we have other areas we need to improve and have some talented youngsters, particularly Vuskovic.

I don't think Dragusin is a good enough profile fit on the ball long term unless he takes significant steps in his close control, passing and being comfortable under pressure. To me that is as important as pace in this system for a CB.

Perhaps I need reminding of Davies other qualities. Apart from being a Dawsonesque level top bloke, I don't actually see so much. He can be strong in the challenge, and does the simple well. An underrated quality. I don't see many technical qualities in him though. I've always seen as much chaos around him as calmness as well when he's been in the side. He's no Vertonghen when it comes to bringing others levels up around him. I don't doubt his mentorship to the younger guys off the pitch has been understated. He sets standards.

I currently think this summer is time to carry him arms aloft and let him go.

 

[braineclipse]

Perhaps I need reminding of Davies other qualities. Apart from being a Dawsonesque level top bloke, I don't actually see so much. He can be strong in the challenge, and does the simple well. An underrated quality. I don't see many technical qualities in him though. I've always seen as much chaos around him as calmness as well when he's been in the side. He's no Vertonghen when it comes to bringing others levels up around him. I don't doubt his mentorship to the younger guys off the pitch has been understated. He sets standards.

I currently think this summer is time to carry him arms aloft and let him go.

Positionally strong (as I actually think the examples we discussed illustrate). Makes good decisions (when to drop off, when to push up, when to be aggressive, when to just make a foul). Good awareness (again, above discussion). Strong tackler, helped by knowing when to tackle and when not to. Good ball player, imo significantly better than Dragusin for example. Imo better than VdV too in that department apart from in ball carrying . Consistent.

Essentially most things other than pace and height he's at least decent to good at. And he's not slow. And he's fairly strong and smart on when to go into duels and not.

Good all rounder, but lacks being exceptional at some things to be a really quality CB. But for a backup he's fine. We should aim for better at some point, but there are other areas we're shorter in.

 

[harr1984]

Honestly, why anyone would want to be particularly critical of that game is beyond me, it was only ever going to be about getting a result. Team low in confidence, if we had better luck could have been 3 plus goals up at half time and was no surprise that we tailed off in the second half considering how knackered this team are. Did you see how as soon as the final whilst went a load of the players in unison collapsed to the floor? They were shot, had given their all and got us the 3 points. Far from perfect, but something to build on.....

 

[parklane1]

Honestly, why anyone would want to be particularly critical of that game is beyond me, it was only ever going to be about getting a result. Team low in confidence, if we had better luck could have been 3 plus goals up at half time and was no surprise that we tailed off in the second half considering how knackered this team are. Did you see how as soon as the final whilst went a load of the players in unison collapsed to the floor? They were shot, had given their all and got us the 3 points. Far from perfect, but something to build on.....

I agree, a win is a win and a lot of our players are running on fumes at the moment. add to that we have a couple of young kids running themselves into the ground trying to impress. We will improve once we get our main players back into fitness amd hopefully that will not be long.

 

[thfcsteff]

It's actually great to analyse these goals together.

For that first goal, looking closer the biggest issue is Davies's physiology. It's having no pace to get from the 18 yard line to the 6 yard line comfortably so you can set yourself. That's the awful position I was talking about, not the starting one. Ben then is awkward because it needs the right foot and he's caught thinking about the more natural left foot and the guy has stolen the march on him. He is wrong side. He also needed Gray to play the offisde trap. Gray was using his own instincts and young legs to think he could save the day by sweeping all around the back rather than letting the guy drift off. It was a great disguised ball though. Most of our lot thought it was coming over the left back side.

We can analyse all day, but the primary basis for our defence is the line that needs to be held and the use of the offside track. All these guys need to trust it and learn it inside out if that is the chosen way. Some won't be suited as they don't have the pace to play within that system. That leaves question marks on Dragusin and Davies. Dragusin is our box defender who might just about make the full transition to it, and give us his other strengths. Davies doesn't bring much to the table in my opinion. Phillips and Vuskovic won't be seen so much until they've had it drilled into them but at least have the physiology. Ben doesn't.

Your point about the midfield role is massively key. It won't work without the pressing and even the overload. That goes for the 2 wide players as well. We will smother teams eventually with the right players and rotation.

I agree with the sentiment, but frankly, I think analysis of this nature is somewhat redundant given how many first team players we're missing, how much shuffling our second string defence is undergoing, how fatigued the entire side is, how our midfield keeps having to change due to injury/suspensions, it all contributes to the moments of indecision you're speaking about. The truth is our defensive record up to November was very good statistically, our biggest issue all season has been chances converted versus created. I really feel we are in the dig-deep saloon, and honestly, there's going to be some wobbles Sunday as well with regards to decision making and positional accuracy; we've just got to win right now.

 

[Muttley]

I agree with the sentiment, but frankly, I think analysis of this nature is somewhat redundant given how many first team players we're missing, how much shuffling our second string defence is undergoing, how fatigued the entire side is, how our midfield keeps having to change due to injury/suspensions, it all contributes to the moments of indecision you're speaking about. The truth is our defensive record up to November was very good statistically, our biggest issue all season has been chances converted versus created. I really feel we are in the dig-deep saloon, and honestly, there's going to be some wobbles Sunday as well with regards to decision making and positional accuracy; we've just got to win right now.

That's the long term theme of our conversation over weeks we seem to be having though. The test of Ange's system will be whether it can be universally implemented through the entire squad but when we're in normal times i.e. not injury free as that is unrealistic. We're not close to that at the moment......or are we?

Our focus needs to be on about 8 players who are the red zoners and injury returners. We have some having their mini winter break (joke). OK, injured or not in the EL squad but still giving their bodies a rest from the rigmarole of being on that pitch. We have others like Madds, Berg and Bents who have been in very safe zones for minutes played. However, we do have the guys like Kulu, Porro, Dragusin and Gray who definitely aren't. Sonny to a certain extent as well, especially with his age compared to the others. It will be interesting to see whether these players are the first in the queue to get the rest. Spence and Reggie are available at the weekend so 2 could get an immediate rest. Let's see if they do.

It's interesting watching the tactical system play out in these times though. I don't think Davies's mistakes were any different than I've seen over the last decade personally, but as an injury returnee he will get the benefit of the doubt. When we do get back to "normal" times it will be interesting how this defensive line and offside strategy plays out with the press and whether rotation can keep it intact.

 

[thfcsteff]

That's the long term theme of our conversation over weeks we seem to be having though. The test of Ange's system will be whether it can be universally implemented through the entire squad but when we're in normal times i.e. not injury free as that is unrealistic. We're not close to that at the moment......or are we?

Our focus needs to be on about 8 players who are the red zoners and injury returners. We have some having their mini winter break (joke). OK, injured or not in the EL squad but still giving their bodies a rest from the rigmarole of being on that pitch. We have others like Madds, Berg and Bents who have been in very safe zones for minutes played. However, we do have the guys like Kulu, Porro, Dragusin and Gray who definitely aren't. Sonny to a certain extent as well, especially with his age compared to the others. It will be interesting to see whether these players are the first in the queue to get the rest. Spence and Reggie are available at the weekend so 2 could get an immediate rest. Let's see if they do.

It's interesting watching the tactical system play out in these times though. I don't think Davies's mistakes were any different than I've seen over the last decade personally, but as an injury returnee he will get the benefit of the doubt. When we do get back to "normal" times it will be interesting how this defensive line and offside strategy plays out with the press and whether rotation can keep it intact.

I am still unclear as to what people want. We have modified considerably, but still look to win games. Do people want us to set up and sit deep, let others have 60-70% possession and try to hit people on the break? If people are looking for more care in execution of what we're doing, I think it's pretty clear that has happened.

 

[Muttley]

I am still unclear as to what people want. We have modified considerably, but still look to win games. Do people want us to set up and sit deep, let others have 60-70% possession and try to hit people on the break? If people are looking for more care in execution of what we're doing, I think it's pretty clear that has happened.

I can only answer that for me obviously.

It's what you said above. I want to get back to normal times with a normal amount of injuries. That's what fans like me want now the most. It's like Romero and VDV being reported as being back for Tamworth. Here we are 12 days from Pool and one of them is back on the training ground. It does drag us all down I think.

Then we can test some theories on Ange's system. In my mind, we are about to enter phase 6 of Ange's tenure soon if you break each season into thirds. It's a logical thing to do as we can discount the middle third of both seasons due to the injuries, plus AFCON/Asia Cup etc last season.

What we're saying is that phase 4 had some positive signs and 3 definitely did as well. We could see some interesting trends in phase 4. We definitely saw some defensive improvements as you say. The inconsistency was a real concern though. The question still hangs there whether it is realistic for players to slot in and execute to this system each time they take the field, or is it just too much of an aspirational system to work consistently.

I think what fans like me probably want most at the moment is more pragmatism whilst we're in this phase. We have "11 fit" players and are 2-0 up last night. Everyone is sprinting to take the throw ins, goal / free kicks. I want to see more players used as well. I thought the 3 young lads proved a little point last night.

As for signings, I'm less sure about that one as we've all seen how long it takes to get used to the system in the defence and midfield areas. What we need to do is treat the window as business as usual. Just ignore the injury crisis and make it irrelevant. Stick to the plan as if we were 5th or 6th in the league and pushing for CL places. It's the only way to think in my opinion. If we don't land the right fish, then wait until the summer.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Angel Gomes, almost done.

Was this your attempt at trying to be 'ITK'?