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Jurgen the German said:
I'm all for using it as a tactic, just not for every single goal kick even when every defender has an attacker within 10 yards of him. I don't think I've ever seen such a top keeper have such useless distribution skills as Lloris does. It's the only real weakness in his game.
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I think Lloris' weakness is overblown, and to be honest the whole point of playing out even when marked is a good one. It's about having confidence that you can play even against the top sides. It's something nice Rodgers and latterly Howe have brought to this league, and made supposedly average players better. Don't think that just because you'll be under more pressure you can't impose your own game. The problem was, we just needed to be better, and we needed a shape that suited.
 
diego_maradona said:
Guardiola looked to exploit the gaps behind our wing backs. Sane and Sterling ensured Rose and Walker couldn't really get out and then Silva and De Bruyne had a field day (both are such brilliant footballers). It could have been ok, but we lost most individual battles on the day, started to get caught in possession at the back, looking panicky and our frontline never really made the ball stick where we could have hurt them.

In hindsight I think Son's pace could have caused them a rethink from the off. A bit like against Arsenal where early on he roasted Mustafi and suddenly Arsenal looked uncomfortable. Fascinating tactical battle, with a lot of onus on wingplay from both sides. We were uncharacteristically pulled wide open by their tactics and the long ball through the middle caused us a lot of grief. I think a lot of planning went into that from Guardiola. He really is a fantastic coach.

Really looking forward to seeing City v Liverpool too. Some great games between the top 6 coming up.
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Well Poch came up with the answers in game, with a lot less time to think about it!
 
diego_maradona said:
City have an insanely talented squad. I think next season Guardiola could turn them into a side a level above the rest of the league.
Sane and Jesus look like unbelievable talents who will flourish in the league.

Guardiola looked to exploit the gaps behind our wing backs. Sane and Sterling ensured Rose and Walker couldn't really get out and then Silva and De Bruyne had a field day (both are such brilliant footballers). It could have been ok, but we lost most individual battles on the day, started to get caught in possession at the back, looking panicky and our frontline never really made the ball stick where we could have hurt them.

In hindsight I think Son's pace could have caused them a rethink from the off. A bit like against Arsenal where early on he roasted Mustafi and suddenly Arsenal looked uncomfortable. Fascinating tactical battle, with a lot of onus on wingplay from both sides. We were uncharacteristically pulled wide open by their tactics and the long ball through the middle caused us a lot of grief. I think a lot of planning went into that from Guardiola. He really is a fantastic coach.

Really looking forward to seeing City v Liverpool too. Some great games between the top 6 coming up.
Click to expand...

What I think is interesting is that we are seeing cycles of tactics and formations (that usually take about 5 years to go from one trend to the other) happen multiple times in this season or even in game as the top coaches have become so flexible and willing to do what it takes to win.

I remember when Hoddle really wanted to get a 3-5-2 going but couldn't, as firstly he didn't have the players fit but secondly Mourinho's 4-3-3 was about to come in. That version of the 4-3-3, with wingers pinning the full backs wide and a Makelele style holder creating passing triangles was best to beat the 4-4-2 and the 3-5-2. Then that 4-3-3 got phased out slightly with the rise of 4-2-3-1 and high pressing, and once most teams had switched to that, Conte and Poch (and to give them their due, Martinez with Wigan and Rodgers with Liverpool for a time), went to 3 at the back to counter act the pressing. An extra centre back meant that there was another option when being pressed high, while the 4-2-3-1 has a narrow 3 behind the striker that struggle for space.

Pep set up the team as a more modern version of the 4-3-3, with wide players pinning our wing backs and stretching our centre backs, and out numbering the centre backs when we tried to build from the back, with 5 players hunting down our 5. It's great that Poch changed it up. I'm not that scared that Pep will be way out in front next season. What he did wasn't that revolutionary, it was just the smart move. But just like Poch did, other managers will adapt next season and Pep's 4-3-3 won't be unbeatable.

If Chelsea win league this year, I think it's simply down to the fact that Conte went to his 3-4-3 before anyone else did. That gave him the slight advantage. Unlucky for us as I think we have the better squad, so certainly frustrating there. What we need to do (and what Poch has already moved us towards this season) next year is to be able to adapt to 3 at the back and 4 at the back systems and be able to switch fluidly in game, ideally without a sub required. Dier is the perfect player for us to make that happen. Just a shame Wanyama can't adapt to being a more attacking force if we need him to.
 
Very happy with how we battled for a point here.

We were indeed very lucky; but we'd have lost that game a few years ago and by some margin.
Just think: for all their pressure on us, they only scored from two uncharacteristic Lloris howlers. That says a lot about our defensive ability to just 'hang in there'.

And this was a point well won vs a side with megariches and LOTS of attacking classy talent (even if their defence is woeful) and anyone hat uses this to talk brick about "typical Spurs" is either
a) being plain dumb (look at the difference in spending over many, many years) or
b) falling for a convenient media-driven narrative to keep using the term S.P.U.R.S.Y.


It was never going to be easy to beat Pep at the Etihad (as much as we all wanted to do it to keep pace with Chelski and cement top 4).

COYS
 
BrainOfLevy said:
What I think is interesting is that we are seeing cycles of tactics and formations (that usually take about 5 years to go from one trend to the other) happen multiple times in this season or even in game as the top coaches have become so flexible and willing to do what it takes to win.

I remember when Hoddle really wanted to get a 3-5-2 going but couldn't, as firstly he didn't have the players fit but secondly Mourinho's 4-3-3 was about to come in. That version of the 4-3-3, with wingers pinning the full backs wide and a Makelele style holder creating passing triangles was best to beat the 4-4-2 and the 3-5-2. Then that 4-3-3 got phased out slightly with the rise of 4-2-3-1 and high pressing, and once most teams had switched to that, Conte and Poch (and to give them their due, Martinez with Wigan and Rodgers with Liverpool for a time), went to 3 at the back to counter act the pressing. An extra centre back meant that there was another option when being pressed high, while the 4-2-3-1 has a narrow 3 behind the striker that struggle for space.

Pep set up the team as a more modern version of the 4-3-3, with wide players pinning our wing backs and stretching our centre backs, and out numbering the centre backs when we tried to build from the back, with 5 players hunting down our 5. It's great that Poch changed it up. I'm not that scared that Pep will be way out in front next season. What he did wasn't that revolutionary, it was just the smart move. But just like Poch did, other managers will adapt next season and Pep's 4-3-3 won't be unbeatable.

If Chelsea win league this year, I think it's simply down to the fact that Conte went to his 3-4-3 before anyone else did. That gave him the slight advantage. Unlucky for us as I think we have the better squad, so certainly frustrating there. What we need to do (and what Poch has already moved us towards this season) next year is to be able to adapt to 3 at the back and 4 at the back systems and be able to switch fluidly in game, ideally without a sub required. Dier is the perfect player for us to make that happen. Just a shame Wanyama can't adapt to being a more attacking force if we need him to.
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Indeed; the tactical acumen in the PL may be at its highest for some time. If Benitez get's promotion with Saudi Sportswashing Machine (as one would expect) then next season could have so much tactical variation that some managers traditionally in the top 4 (or top 6) could really be left behind imo...
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I think Lloris' weakness is overblown, and to be honest the whole point of playing out even when marked is a good one. It's about having confidence that you can play even against the top sides. It's something nice Rodgers and latterly Howe have brought to this league, and made supposedly average players better. Don't think that just because you'll be under more pressure you can't impose your own game. The problem was, we just needed to be better, and we needed a shape that suited.
Click to expand...

I understand all that but when your opponent is high pressing you from the off, I don't think it's a bad idea to vary it and also go long for the first twenty minutes or so. We were up against a team that had just four recognised defenders and a keeper lacking in confidence. I were hoping we'd be testing them early on, give them situations to deal with but instead, their six forward thinking players were buzzing around our players as we were looking to play the ball out from a short Lloris pass.
 
glorygloryeze said:
Indeed; the tactical acumen in the PL may be at its highest for some time. If Benitez get's promotion with Saudi Sportswashing Machine (as one would expect) then next season could have so much tactical variation that some managers traditionally in the top 4 (or top 6) could really be left behind imo...
Click to expand...

I must admit when Lloris bundled their second goal I was fearing an AVB/Sherwood style beating, but that's why Poch is different. AVB had one system and played it at all costs even when failing. That Poch acted decisively in the game is what puts him on the top level of coaches and why we are punching well above our weight.

Next season will be really cool, I think that adaptability is setting managers apart.
 
Robspur12 said:
Great report. Interesting that we were more clinical in this game, 2 goals from 2 shots on target, when earlier in the season we were having our own problems converting chances. In fact it was so bad it justified its own thread.

I think a lot of it comes down to confidence. Therefore City will improve and convert a higher proportion of chances so I am glad we don't have to play them again.

As an aside , out of our rival managers I am really starting to like the studied, purist approach of Guardiola.
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That's because Bravo doesn't make any saves. Everton had four shots on target last round and got four goals.
 
diego_maradona said:
City have an insanely talented squad. I think next season Guardiola could turn them into a side a level above the rest of the league.
Sane and Jesus look like unbelievable talents who will flourish in the league.

Guardiola looked to exploit the gaps behind our wing backs. Sane and Sterling ensured Rose and Walker couldn't really get out and then Silva and De Bruyne had a field day (both are such brilliant footballers). It could have been ok, but we lost most individual battles on the day, started to get caught in possession at the back, looking panicky and our frontline never really made the ball stick where we could have hurt them.

In hindsight I think Son's pace could have caused them a rethink from the off. A bit like against Arsenal where early on he roasted Mustafi and suddenly Arsenal looked uncomfortable. Fascinating tactical battle, with a lot of onus on wingplay from both sides. We were uncharacteristically pulled wide open by their tactics and the long ball through the middle caused us a lot of grief. I think a lot of planning went into that from Guardiola. He really is a fantastic coach.

Really looking forward to seeing City v Liverpool too. Some great games between the top 6 coming up.
Click to expand...
The good thing is we responded tactically 3 times.
Our 4-2-3-1 with Lloris sweeping, like last year would have easily coped with their long ball. Unfortunately, and understandably, we and Lloris were a bit rusty.
This set of players have the potential to be legendary once they hone the ability to switch tactics more fluently during the game. Very few teams, even the great ones, historically, have not been able to do this, not even the total football Dutch team. Perhaps the nearest for us would be Blanchflower having the licence to change formation for the Double Team.
Poch deserves massive credit for this. But it also indicates, a willingness to be pragmatic rather than just focus on his philosophy.
Principle v pragmatism, doesn't have to be 100% one or the other.
 
Hemant said:
The good thing is we responded tactically 3 times.
Our 4-2-3-1 with Lloris sweeping, like last year would have easily coped with their long ball. Unfortunately, and understandably, we and Lloris were a bit rusty.
This set of players have the potential to be legendary once they hone the ability to switch tactics more fluently during the game. Very few teams, even the great ones, historically, have not been able to do this, not even the total football Dutch team. Perhaps the nearest for us would be Blanchflower having the licence to change formation for the Double Team.
Poch deserves massive credit for this. But it also indicates, a willingness to be pragmatic rather than just focus on his philosophy.
Principle v pragmatism, doesn't have to be 100% one or the other.
Click to expand...

Agreed; especially the point about Principle vs Pragmatism; imo it's a crossroads that Guardiola will have to navigate this season...

I am REALLY liking Poch's tactical flexibility and pragmatism so far this season
 
glorygloryeze said:
Agreed; especially the point about Principle vs Pragmatism; imo it's a crossroads that Guardiola will have to navigate this season...

I am REALLY liking Poch's tactical flexibility and pragmatism so far this season
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Unless I've missed something? But I think that Saturday must be one of the few games in Guardiola's managerial career, where he's asked his team to play so many long balls over the top.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I must admit when Lloris bundled their second goal I was fearing an AVB/Sherwood style beating, but that's why Poch is different. AVB had one system and played it at all costs even when failing. That Poch acted decisively in the game is what puts him on the top level of coaches and why we are punching well above our weight.

Next season will be really cool, I think that adaptability is setting managers apart.
Click to expand...

Id love to agree with you but next season away from the Lane will be a right off IMO

I expect some memorable game but until were back home I think its gonna be a topsy turvy season

And tats not anything negative about Poch or the players who are going 110% in the right direction
 
wiziwig said:
Unless I've missed something? But I think that Saturday must be one of the few games in Guardiola's managerial career, where he's asked his team to play so many long balls over the top.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but i think he did that a few times with Bayern when they faced Klopp's Dortmund; It was like after the first time he played them (i think he lost, or at least had a big scare) he thought "aint gonna take that sheet again.."
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Pep set up the team as a more modern version of the 4-3-3, with wide players pinning our wing backs and stretching our centre backs, and out numbering the centre backs when we tried to build from the back, with 5 players hunting down our 5. It's great that Poch changed it up. I'm not that scared that Pep will be way out in front next season. What he did wasn't that revolutionary, it was just the smart move. But just like Poch did, other managers will adapt next season and Pep's 4-3-3 won't be unbeatable.
Click to expand...

Personally I don't see it that the wing backs were pinned back. If they were pinned back there would've been no gaps in between the 3 centre halves when in fact the wide forwards - Sane/Sterling were making runs from out to in to exploit the space either side of Toby. Our 3 is deliberately spaced out in order to allow/encourage possession based build-up from the back, when you turn over possession so close to your own goal there will inevitably be major gaps because you aren't in the correct structural position to block attacks. I think the wing backs were higher up but unable to receive quality balls from the back and were more rendered redundant.

I do agree they pressed with 5 men - 3 on the centre-backs and then Silva/De Bruyne supporting and covering both the wing-backs and the deepest midfield man - making it nigh-on impossible to get out.

I've always thought 4-3-3 is the way to go to force a team out of shape when they play 3 centre-halves. I can recall Hoddle regularly having to shift to a back 4 in game when the opposition had gone 1 for 1 at the back (you always need a spare man defensively). If we'd gone with 4-2-3-1 from the start I don't think the tactics would've been anywhere near as effective.
 
tynesidespur said:
Personally I don't see it that the wing backs were pinned back. If they were pinned back there would've been no gaps in between the 3 centre halves when in fact the wide forwards - Sane/Sterling were making runs from out to in to exploit the space either side of Toby. Our 3 is deliberately spaced out in order to allow/encourage possession based build-up from the back, when you turn over possession so close to your own goal there will inevitably be major gaps because you aren't in the correct structural position to block attacks. I think the wing backs were higher up but unable to receive quality balls from the back and were more rendered redundant.

I do agree they pressed with 5 men - 3 on the centre-backs and then Silva/De Bruyne supporting and covering both the wing-backs and the deepest midfield man - making it nigh-on impossible to get out.

I've always thought 4-3-3 is the way to go to force a team out of shape when they play 3 centre-halves. I can recall Hoddle regularly having to shift to a back 4 in game when the opposition had gone 1 for 1 at the back (you always need a spare man defensively). If we'd gone with 4-2-3-1 from the start I don't think the tactics would've been anywhere near as effective.
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I just want to clarify; when you refer to tactics 'not being anywhere near as effective' are you talking about Pep's tactics vs us? Or do you mean our own tactics?
 
tynesidespur said:
Personally I don't see it that the wing backs were pinned back. If they were pinned back there would've been no gaps in between the 3 centre halves when in fact the wide forwards - Sane/Sterling were making runs from out to in to exploit the space either side of Toby. Our 3 is deliberately spaced out in order to allow/encourage possession based build-up from the back, when you turn over possession so close to your own goal there will inevitably be major gaps because you aren't in the correct structural position to block attacks. I think the wing backs were higher up but unable to receive quality balls from the back and were more rendered redundant.

I do agree they pressed with 5 men - 3 on the centre-backs and then Silva/De Bruyne supporting and covering both the wing-backs and the deepest midfield man - making it nigh-on impossible to get out.

I've always thought 4-3-3 is the way to go to force a team out of shape when they play 3 centre-halves. I can recall Hoddle regularly having to shift to a back 4 in game when the opposition had gone 1 for 1 at the back (you always need a spare man defensively). If we'd gone with 4-2-3-1 from the start I don't think the tactics would've been anywhere near as effective.
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I agree. It's a shame we didn't start with our 4231 but the fact that we changed it quickly speaks well for Poch. That adaptabIlly will be key. In a way we've got a more adaptable squad than Chelsea, so we should have an advantage there. It would become very awkward for them if teams forced them to change to a back 4. We can just about manage it.

I also think we'll be fine at Wembley next year. I'm going to put the Leverkusen game down to it being the game that Poch realised he needed to be adaptable with. Bournemouth was a scare, but Bayer showed that pressing us when we split the centre backs and expect Wanyama to take the ball just wasn't going to work. Our system had been found out. We want to get to a point where if a team thinks they have us figured, we change so they can never know what's coming.

I just can't quite figure out the Wanyama conundrum. I think it has to be one of Dier or Wanyama in any game if we are going for true adaptation, and if it's Wanyama he needs to learn how to play third centre back. Otherwise if we push Dier into CM it's not our true 4231 because it lacks creativity, something Poch had to rectify with a sub at City.
 
wiziwig said:
I understand all that but when your opponent is high pressing you from the off, I don't think it's a bad idea to vary it and also go long for the first twenty minutes or so. We were up against a team that had just four recognised defenders and a keeper lacking in confidence. I were hoping we'd be testing them early on, give them situations to deal with but instead, their six forward thinking players were buzzing around our players as we were looking to play the ball out from a short Lloris pass.
Click to expand...

Exactly, variation is not a bad thing. We don't want to become predictable with teams camping outside our box. I'm surprised more teams don't try it given Lloris' distribution skills or lack of.
 
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