***OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v Borussia Dortmund - first leg***

[We are Tottenham]

He did last season when he won a couple of player of the months in a decent Swansea side

Carrol plays well sometimes in a strong team..but you have to be consistent ..stand up and be counted.imo he doesn't do that...pity!

 

[thfcsteff]

Respect for what? There's nothing to be respected about what we did today. Pure and simple.

I'm not entirely sure why posting on forums carries with it a constant need to restate your priors, but I've mentioned countless times before that finishing in the top four alone would be a massive overachievement this season, and that I'm quite happy with how the team has played as a whole in the league this year. Indeed, I'm probably one of the posters most against believing in the title hype, because that would diminish the sense of achievement that will come from finishing in the top four alone.

But this constant need to venerate Poch and preface a discussion of his undoubted failings and missteps with 'oh, but I'm happy with what he's done elsewhere' is just strange to me. Especially coming from insightful posters like @thfcsteff. What chance is there of criticising Poch in a truthful manner if the most one can ever say (lest they offend the more zealous among us) is....'Poch maybe, possibly f*cked up, but it's entirely okay because he's a great bloke who done good in the league and is working on a small budget and changing the club for the better and all that, and I'm terribly sorry for even suggesting that he might have f*cked up'?

Today, there was absolutely nothing, nothing that he did that deserved respect in my eyes. Contrary to certain posters' views, there are people in the fanbase who relish nights like these, a chance to test our mettle against the best and hopefully at the very least make the top sides on the continent respect us more after 90 minutes of furious competition. That's what it's all about, after all. And all that was thrown away because we voluntarily played a second-string eleven that put up a fight and still ended up getting slaughtered.

We lost the chance for a great European night tonight. Poch deserves a hearty, bellowed 'f*ck you!' for that, and he got it. If people take exception to that because it did not involve a constant, pointless restatement of one's priors and a cringing, bowing admission of the omniscience of Poch elsewhere, so f*cking be it.

You'd do yourself a MASSIVE favour if you avoided trolling me Dubai. I am leaving you to do what you do. Leave me out of it.

 

[Baleforce]

Oh, some Irish newspaper's suggested that the only reason Dembele, Lamela and Kane were thrown on as they were (1-0, 2-0 and 3-0) was because we would otherwise be fined by UEFA for deliberately fielding a weakened side.

Has this actually happened before? I know we were fined in the 90's (at some point) for fielding a weakened side in the Intertoto Cup, but that precedent seems difficult to enforce. It is of course jaw-dropping that such a situation is even being suggested with regard to a European away game against Borussia f*cking Dortmund...but hey, we brought it on ourselves. However, is there a possibility that we might be fined anyway?

wasn't that the inter toto side we put out that had Pardew in, that's probably what the fine was for, with him and Ian Walker on the pitch we probably fell foul of some UEFA brick eating grin quota

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think I might speak for a lot of people when I say that a lot of the anger being shown is actually generated by the Europa league being a complete fudgeing waste of time if we're never going to field a full strength side in the knockout rounds. So why not just play all under 21s from the start, and save everyone the hassle of playing all those earlier games?

A question for Milo - do you see any net value in playing in the Europa League? What kind of team would you play throughout?

I'll make a comment if you don't mind

I'd play kids at the start and sack it off

Any competition that welcomes in failures form another is instantly degrading itself

Combine that with the effect it has on our league form and it really is something that costs us dearly (although I do enjoy a good away session)

Champions league is mainly important for the spectacle and the cash it brings - hence why it has become the be all and end all over here. People talk about the money in the game but ut inevitably goes on attracting the players to try to get in the champions league to then pay them even more money. You can't win, unless you win it but you have to be in to win it!!!!

 

[thfcsteff]

We are playing Aston Villa in our next league game, NOT Arsenal or West Ham....

We need to pay them respect. At a certain point some of those players will fight for their own personal reputations and we need to make sure they don't get a sniff against us. Win the game by HT and then look to add goals second half, but no underestimation!!!

 

[Modric THFC]

The issue here is why did Poch only start to prioritise the league in February?

In November when we took the entire team to Qarabag and started our first choice team minus the full backs, we were 4 points behind Leicester at the top of the league and had Chelsea at home in 3 days time.

What was the point in sending out strong teams in the group stage again and then fielding weaker teams in the knock outs again?

I would have no problem if he played this team through the whole competition and this is as far as we could go.

 

[glorygloryeze]

We need to pay them respect. At a certain point some of those players will fight for their own personal reputations and we need to make sure they don't get a sniff against us. Win the game by HT and then look to add goals second half, but no underestimation!!!

I agree to not underestimating Villa, but one of Dier or Dembele could have been saved for the bench vs Villa and played today.
It was always going to be hard vs Dortmund but to have effectively NO defensive muscle/midfield shield in front of our defence was just asking for our club badge for the game to be a tub of vaseline

 

[Roy1983]

A thought.
Would putting out a side which featured a tired Dier and Kane plus Mousa that still got done, say, 2-0 have been better? BD are a top side. What would it have done to their confidence? What if we had lost either to injury? There are always hard questions to ask. Angry at Poch? I was more upset at the Lamela sub on Sat than anything tonight TBH...

The filth were trying to get Lamela sent off hence the substitution.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The issue here is why did Poch only start to prioritise the league in February?

In November when we took the entire team to Qarabag and started our first choice team minus the full backs, we were 4 points behind Leicester at the top of the league and had Chelsea at home in 3 days time.

What was the point in sending out strong teams in the group stage again and then fielding weaker teams in the knock outs again?

I would have no problem if he played this team through the whole competition and this is as far as we could go.

Much love for this post

 

[Gutter Boy]

The issue here is why did Poch only start to prioritise the league in February?

In November when we took the entire team to Qarabag and started our first choice team minus the full backs, we were 4 points behind Leicester at the top of the league and had Chelsea at home in 3 days time.

What was the point in sending out strong teams in the group stage again and then fielding weaker teams in the knock outs again?

I would have no problem if he played this team through the whole competition and this is as far as we could go.

Maybe to do with fitness levels? These will be closely and scientifically monitored. Perhaps more players were capable of 2 games a week then, whereas they aren't now?

 

[glorygloryeze]

The issue here is why did Poch only start to prioritise the league in February?

In November when we took the entire team to Qarabag and started our first choice team minus the full backs, we were 4 points behind Leicester at the top of the league and had Chelsea at home in 3 days time.

What was the point in sending out strong teams in the group stage again and then fielding weaker teams in the knock outs again?

I would have no problem if he played this team through the whole competition and this is as far as we could go.

Maybe to do with fitness levels? These will be closely and scientifically monitored. Perhaps more players were capable of 2 games a week then, whereas they aren't now?

Fair posts...

 

[Hootnow]

Because he has had to keep the squad playing so as we could be second in the league going for the title!!!!!!!

He needs to know what he has at the top top level, jesus, he needs to be able identify what he needs next seasom when we come across the Dortmunds in CL!!!!

I agree Steff so why was the rotation less in he earlier stages of the season? Why were we playing such strong teams in the group stages if, once it came down to it, we wouldn't bother anyway?

I agree he needs to see but as I was saying, I don't consider myself a footballing genius in any way, nor even particularly knowledgeable about football.

What I can tell you thought is that we should not be going to top European teams away with Mason and Carroll as our central midfield pair. We should not have Chadli as a backup striker if we don't feel confident enough using him in domestic league games and only in European games (and he is not good enough again to play upfront away against these kinds of sides).

I don't particuarly feel any of us, whether us lay people in the stands/ internet or Poch need to see us picked apart by Dortmund to know that.

 

[Baleforce]

we're having our greatest league campaign of the modern era

that suggests it's been prioritised since August

we felt we could do well so sent a strong team out against Qarabeg

tonight we still felt we could do well so sent a strong team out against Dortmund too

I'm feeling a lot of disrespect for some of our players, it's a squad game these days, 11 good players won't get you anywhere, 12 months ago Bentaleb was "first choice" and Dembele wasn't, Chadli was, Lamela wasnt, things change, everyone has their part to play, I trust Poch to manage that and don't think for a second that tonight's result would have been different with the starting 11 from the Arsenal game, if anything it would have been worse

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I watched that shower of brick in a pub in crawley, not with the poster crawley as I believe him to now be dead.

We were second best, no complaints with the result, not sure why we put out such a strong team in the early group matches and dropped points in the following league games to go out in such a poor way tonight.

Think it shows the squad is still to thin, whether we are going to wait for the youngsters to improve or buy some more experienced players in the summer remains to be seen.

On conclusion I still love Poch, love the way we play and the promoting of young players, think we need a few more players in our squad and I would like an old fashioned ball winner like the lad at Leicester.

Anyway onwards and upwards.

PS. If any of you happen to be near Crawley, keep on driving, the amount of people I saw tonight with some form of facial deformity was surreal.

 

[Baleforce]

I agree Steff so why was the rotation less in he earlier stages of the season? Why were we playing such strong teams in the group stages if, once it came down to it, we wouldn't bother anyway?

I agree he needs to see but as I was saying, I don't consider myself a footballing genius in any way, nor even particularly knowledgeable about football.

What I can tell you thought is that we should not be going to top European teams away with Mason and Carroll as our central midfield pair. We should not have Chadli as a backup striker if we don't feel confident enough using him in domestic league games and only in European games (and he is not good enough again to play upfront away against these kinds of sides).

I don't particuarly feel any of us, whether us lay people in the stands/ internet or Poch need to see us picked apart by Dortmund to know that.

cumulative fatigue

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I agree Steff so why was the rotation less in he earlier stages of the season? Why were we playing such strong teams in the group stages if, once it came down to it, we wouldn't bother anyway?

I agree he needs to see but as I was saying, I don't consider myself a footballing genius in any way, nor even particularly knowledgeable about football.

What I can tell you thought is that we should not be going to top European teams away with Mason and Carroll as our central midfield pair. We should not have Chadli as a backup striker if we don't feel confident enough using him in domestic league games and only in European games (and he is not good enough again to play upfront away against these kinds of sides).

I don't particuarly feel any of us, whether us lay people in the stands/ internet or Poch need to see us picked apart by Dortmund to know that.

Hey I just got in and that is what struck me tonight, the amount of points we dropped playing our best players in the arse end of europe to go out like this.

 

[Baleforce]

I watched that shower of brick in a pub in crawley, not with the poster crawley as I believe him to now be dead.

We were second best, no complaints with the result, not sure why we put out such a strong team in the early group matches and dropped points in the following league games to go out in such a poor way tonight.

Think it shows the squad is still to thin, whether we are going to wait for the youngsters to improve or buy some more experienced players in the summer remains to be seen.

On conclusion I still love Poch, love the way we play and the promoting of young players, think we need a few more players in our squad and I would like an old fashioned ball winner like the lad at Leicester.

Anyway onwards and upwards.

PS. If any of you happen to be near Crawley, keep on driving, the amount of people I saw tonight with some form of facial deformity was surreal.

he's still spouting his political nonsense on Twitter ;-)

you don't still have a pint glass in front of your face do you?

 

[DubaiSpur]

You'd do yourself a MASSIVE favour if you avoided trolling me Dubai. I am leaving you to do what you do. Leave me out of it.

I'm not 'trolling' you, mate. I'm pointing out what I see as a flaw in your stance on Poch, and I literally directed a question your way right after tagging you in my post.

You don't need to reply if you don't want to. But I absolutely don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm 'trolling' you, or that it's somehow verboten for me to question your assumptions on things on a forum which is meant to discuss our views on Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. You, and quite a few other posters, have over the course of the preceding couple of seasons developed what seems to me to be an unnecessarily adversarial and aggressive position when defending Poch's decisions and trends. By and large, I've agreed with what he's done and been very satisfied with the progress we've made under him. As I will point out, I am satisfied to an extent that actually precludes me getting excited about the stupid title challenge stuff, because I'm focused on us securing the CL and being happy about that monumental achievement. Yet, what I point out his shortcomings (which he has) and his missteps (which he's made), we fall out of step and I end up receiving admonishments to show 'respect' for his other achievements even in instances when he's fallen short. It happened when we fielded a weakened side in the game against Arsenal in the League Cup, which you and I sparred over: it happened today in similar circumstances. I think it even happened when we were discussing the possibility of him leaving and us having to replace him, which degenerated into a mud-flinging sh*tshow that I'd rather avoid having to repeat.

I avoid 'trolling' people, at least the way I understand the term. Certainly, I make a genuine attempt to engage with posters like you and others with whom I sometimes vehemently disagree, and that disagreement brings with it passionate discussions. But one can disagree and respect the poster and person behind the stance that one disagrees with, and that's a philosophy I've rigidly stuck to on all my meandering trips through the internet.

I do not, however, 'troll'. And I do not take kindly to accusations of that sort. If you feel my tagging you in that post is verboten, announce it as something that cannot be done. If my emotional outbursts post-game (which I've publicly admitted are a problem) are things that bother you, ignore them, as I suspect you already do. But don't accuse me of 'trolling' you (what a term!), and if you insist on doing so, initiate disciplinary action or whatever you need to do, because I'm not going to be cowed on questioning your sometimes contradictory (to my eyes) intellectual stances on things because you send some sort of thinly-veiled threat my way.

And, as an add-on, look to thy surroundings before focusing on the tree that stands o'er your path. I get attempts to bait me and personal insults at certain times, and see unchallenged derision of some posters by others as 'untrue' fans. I don't take the baiting attempts and insults very seriously, and ignoring the posters who pull that (thankfully, a minority of one) seems to me to be more than sufficient. I also rebut in turn the fans who question their own for holding contrary views. But me just questioning your own views on something is now apparently grounds for accusations of 'trolling' from on high.

If that's your stance, steff, so be it. It won't stop me trying to engage you, and others with views like yours, in discussion on this site. In doing so, fine, if you want to pursue that path, then I'll happily leave myself open to whatever consequences I get from not doing myself the MASSIVE favour you mentioned in your post.

 

[Hootnow]

we're having our greatest league campaign of the modern era

that suggests it's been prioritised since August

we felt we could do well so sent a strong team out against Qarabeg

tonight we still felt we could do well so sent a strong team out against Dortmund too

I'm feeling a lot of disrespect for some of our players, it's a squad game these days, 11 good players won't get you anywhere, 12 months ago Bentaleb was "first choice" and Dembele wasn't, Chadli was, Lamela wasnt, things change, everyone has their part to play, I trust Poch to manage that and don't think for a second that tonight's result would have been different with the starting 11 from the Arsenal game, if anything it would have been worse

To be completely honest, I don't think that was a strong team tonight. It is not disrespectful to our players, to Carroll, to Chadli, to Onomah to consider Dembele, Kane and Lamela to be better players and to be more suited to playing one of the best European teams in their stadium.

Nobody said eleven players will get you anywhere. Which is what people have been saying, to rotate cleverly throughout the season, a player in here, a player out there, to keep everyone fresh. Let's rest Kane here for Chadli, if we really believe he's such an able deputy for Kane. Let's rest Lamela here. Dier here. Etc etc.

I don't believe for a second that

Lloris, Rose, Alderwierald, Wimmer, Rose, Dier, Dembele, Lamela, Eriksen, Alli, Kane (notwithstanding some of the players who couldn't play tonight anyway) would have done worse than the team we put out today. For one thing, that central midfield is much more suited to playing away in Europe to a big European team, than...Mason and Carroll.

And I don't think Poch does either. Why is why he's gone for something approaching that first team as much as he can this season.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Poch was the one who thought that Son and Chadli could deputise for Kane. It shows the folly of our failure to sign a striking cover for Kane.

Completely agree. Naive decision to not sign another striker. Even someone like Shane Long who isn't overly prolific but works hard would have been better than no one . How many other teams in the league have 1 recognised striker? Serious question.

I have to say, I actually agree with Poch's decision to rest players tonight (although I wouldn't have rested so many). Having said that, playing Chadli out of position up front away to to Borussia Dortmund just won't cut it. If he tries that in the CL next season (assuming we get there) we'll get found out again.