Official - Holtby

[Mosquito_Coasting]

Re: *Official* Holtby

He was not very good playing with his back towards the goal. His first touch let him down many times last season. I think that his best position is CM.

I agree, I didn't see the edge to his game for him to play the advanced playmaker role. Doesn't look like a goalscorer. When Levy gets these players cheap at the end of their contracts, I think he has one eye on moving them on for profit a little down the line. Could well turn out to be a fine player but not sure he will get the opportunities to reach that level with us. Really it's sink or swim in midfield for these guys, it's a tough situation for them. Dempsey responded best to it last season. I don't think any of them will be coddled in the slightest and they just have to show their best in limited opportunities and keep that up to stay in the team.

 

[NorwegianSpursFan]

Re: *Official* Holtby

I think he'll thrive next to Chadli and Soldado, who both seem to like quick one two's and move into space.

 

[Rorschach]

Re: *Official* Holtby

I agree, I didn't see the edge to his game for him to play the advanced playmaker role. Doesn't look like a goalscorer. When Levy gets these players cheap at the end of their contracts, I think he has one eye on moving them on for profit a little down the line. Could well turn out to be a fine player but not sure he will get the opportunities to reach that level with us. Really it's sink or swim in midfield for these guys, it's a tough situation for them. Dempsey responded best to it last season. I don't think any of them will be coddled in the slightest and they just have to show their best in limited opportunities and keep that up to stay in the team.

I don't think you can judge him based on what you've seen him do so far in a Spurs shirt. He can and did play the number 10 position before he came to Spurs.

Yes yes, I know youtubers can make anyone look good, but you can see at least his advanced position...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miGzGebyukg

 

[braineclipse]

Re: *Official* Holtby

I don't think you can judge him based on what you've seen him do so far in a Spurs shirt. He can and did play the number 10 position before he came to Spurs.

Yes yes, I know youtubers can make anyone look good, but you can see at least his advanced position...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miGzGebyukg

I agree fully that it's too soon to judge him based on what we've seen him do for Spurs.

I agree with Mosquito though that I'm not sure he has enough goals in him to play that number 10 role effectively as a first choice for a club with our ambitions.

I think he has shown more promise in a slightly deeper central role for me. Would love to see him given some starts in a role like that, particularly in games against smaller teams where we expect to dominate. His versatility could prove very valuable for him though, will let him get more time on the pitch and more chances to impress.

I would also like to see Holtby alongside Tom Carroll in central midfield with Capoue (if signed) behind them in a 4-3-3 in an EL game at some point.

 

[Rorschach]

Re: *Official* Holtby

I agree fully that it's too soon to judge him based on what we've seen him do for Spurs.

I agree with Mosquito though that I'm not sure he has enough goals in him to play that number 10 role effectively as a first choice for a club with our ambitions.

I think he has shown more promise in a slightly deeper central role for me. Would love to see him given some starts in a role like that, particularly in games against smaller teams where we expect to dominate. His versatility could prove very valuable for him though, will let him get more time on the pitch and more chances to impress.

I would also like to see Holtby alongside Tom Carroll in central midfield with Capoue (if signed) behind them in a 4-3-3 in an EL game at some point.

That is a fair point. I think our ambitions this season might be more than just 4th spot. We certainly could buy someone better to play that role, but I still think he is best option we have at the moment in a 4-2-3-1. Siggy doesn't really contribute enough when played there IMO.

 

[Sandman]

Re: *Official* Holtby

Any player coming in from another league has to be given at least a year to settle in some what and get used to their new team and the style of that league. With that said though, for all his energy and drive Holtby seems a tad slow, so from deeper positions he seems to get caught on the ball. Higher up he can play the quick one-two's and play nice little passes in and around the box, where is more about your touch and vision than having to burst from deep.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: *Official* Holtby

That is a fair point. I think our ambitions this season might be more than just 4th spot. We certainly could buy someone better to play that role, but I still think he is best option we have at the moment in a 4-2-3-1. Siggy doesn't really contribute enough when played there IMO.

Unless we sell him the best option for the number 10 role in a 4-2-3-1 is that Welsh kid with the finger-heart celebration. If we do sell him I very much expect us to sign a replacement.

Any player coming in from another league has to be given at least a year to settle in some what and get used to their new team and the style of that league. With that said though, for all his energy and drive Holtby seems a tad slow, so from deeper positions he seems to get caught on the ball. Higher up he can play the quick one-two's and play nice little passes in and around the box, where is more about your touch and vision than having to burst from deep.

I don't quite get this point, although I agree that he's quite slow.

Why is he more likely to get caught on the ball in a deeper position? In general the closer to the opposition goal you get the less space you get. Having vision, touches and passing skills should be enough to keep him from getting caught on the ball in a deeper position too.

I don't think he will have to burst from deep all that often. When I'm talking about a deeper position at least I'm not talking about him being a Lampart/Gerrard player that will burst forward from deep to get close to the box and contribute with plenty of goals. I'm more thinking a Modric, Carrick, Pirlo style deeper playmaker that can keep us ticking when we have possession and pick those passes into the final third to set up players like Bale, Chadli and Sig in dangerous positions in there.

For me his lack of pace will be less limiting in a deeper role than in a number 10 role. For me at least if a player can't be a constant threat from range in a number 10 role (and I'm not convinced Holtby can) then having a bit of pace to get beyond the striker and be a threat in behind becomes more important. If a player doesn't have any of those then you're essentially left with hoping that he becomes an assist machine through dribbles, combination play, passing etc. I rate Holtby, but I'm not convinced that he's THAT good.

 

[Rossi22]

Re: *Official* Holtby

Holtby was the best player on the field playing as a #10 during the Germany vs Netherlands U21 game. Hopefully he can transfer that to us(if he gets the chance).

 

[Sandman]

Re: *Official* Holtby

Unless we sell him the best option for the number 10 role in a 4-2-3-1 is that Welsh kid with the finger-heart celebration. If we do sell him I very much expect us to sign a replacement.



I don't quite get this point, although I agree that he's quite slow.

Why is he more likely to get caught on the ball in a deeper position? In general the closer to the opposition goal you get the less space you get. Having vision, touches and passing skills should be enough to keep him from getting caught on the ball in a deeper position too.

I don't think he will have to burst from deep all that often. When I'm talking about a deeper position at least I'm not talking about him being a Lampart/Gerrard player that will burst forward from deep to get close to the box and contribute with plenty of goals. I'm more thinking a Modric, Carrick, Pirlo style deeper playmaker that can keep us ticking when we have possession and pick those passes into the final third to set up players like Bale, Chadli and Sig in dangerous positions in there.

For me his lack of pace will be less limiting in a deeper role than in a number 10 role. For me at least if a player can't be a constant threat from range in a number 10 role (and I'm not convinced Holtby can) then having a bit of pace to get beyond the striker and be a threat in behind becomes more important. If a player doesn't have any of those then you're essentially left with hoping that he becomes an assist machine through dribbles, combination play, passing etc. I rate Holtby, but I'm not convinced that he's THAT good.

In a more forward position he is more likely to be aware of the movement of his own players around him. He seems more alert to releasing the ball earlier and thus not getting caught on it, or being tracked by defensive midfielders. In the number 10 role he is behind the opposition midfield and in front of their defence, and like VDV can make sure its the quality of his passing and vision that comes to the fore front. Its a bit like when VDV was out on the wing, he was average at best out there having to do all that running and being closed down by faster full backs. But put him in the hole, and his vision and passing came alive.

Last season in his limited games he did get caught on the ball several times whilst playing deep, thinking he had more time that he did and then not having the pace to get away from the player closing him down. I think it was because he was playing a game he is not used to playing. But further up like in his debut against Norwich he was alive to the 1-2's and had the vision and ability to pick out the runs of players making the break beyond him. I do agree with you though that he needs to show he can score from that position though.

 

[Rorschach]

Re: *Official* Holtby

Unless we sell him the best option for the number 10 role in a 4-2-3-1 is that Welsh kid with the finger-heart celebration. If we do sell him I very much expect us to sign a replacement

Ah yes, there's him but he's hardly a playmaker is he? More a force of nature. I think Bale's strengths might best serve Spurs by cutting in from the right. Playing Bale behind Soldado would not get the best out our new striker IMO. We need a Spanish midget in there me thinks, or a German one.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: *Official* Holtby

In a more forward position he is more likely to be aware of the movement of his own players around him. He seems more alert to releasing the ball earlier and thus not getting caught on it, or being tracked by defensive midfielders. In the number 10 role he is behind the opposition midfield and in front of their defence, and like VDV can make sure its the quality of his passing and vision that comes to the fore front. Its a bit like when VDV was out on the wing, he was average at best out there having to do all that running and being closed down by faster full backs. But put him in the hole, and his vision and passing came alive.

Last season in his limited games he did get caught on the ball several times whilst playing deep, thinking he had more time that he did and then not having the pace to get away from the player closing him down. I think it was because he was playing a game he is not used to playing. But further up like in his debut against Norwich he was alive to the 1-2's and had the vision and ability to pick out the runs of players making the break beyond him. I do agree with you though that he needs to show he can score from that position though.

Any reason why he shouldn't be able to be as aware of the movement of his own players, be as alert to releasing the ball earlier and being aware of how much time he has in a deeper role? I don't buy that just because he's playing deeper his awareness will drop. He will have to get used to playing in our team, in this league etc. But that true regardless of role and position.

The dream position for a number 10 is when they get beyond the opposing midfielders with space to attack the defenders. Don't you agree that most of the time there will be less space and less time in that area of the pitch than in a deeper role?

 

[braineclipse]

Re: *Official* Holtby

Ah yes, there's him but he's hardly a playmaker is he? More a force of nature. I think Bale's strengths might best serve Spurs by cutting in from the right. Playing Bale behind Soldado would not get the best out our new striker IMO. We need a Spanish midget in there me thinks, or a German one.

He's not a playmaker, but if we keep Bale and we play 4-2-3-1 then I think Bale will play in the hole. The playmaking will have to be provided by Chadli, Sig, Lennon, Townsend and possibly Holtby from the wider positions and from our deeper midfielders and defenders I think.

People rave about a number 10 playmaker, but as we saw when we have VdV that's not a panacea either. We struggled to break down stubborn teams plenty of times with VdV in the team as well. That player still needs to get the ball in dangerous positions. And VdV even ended up relying on Crouch to be the provider quite a bit.

I think Soldado will be just fine with Bale behind him in a 4-2-3-1 as long as the rest of the team do their jobs. I hope and think players like Chadli and Paulinho will up our creativity to overcome at least some of the problems we had last season.

 

[Sandman]

Re: *Official* Holtby

The dream position for a number 10 is when they get beyond the opposing midfielders with space to attack the defenders. Don't you agree that most of the time there will be less space and less time in that area of the pitch than in a deeper role?

I general i agree with that. But the point I was trying to make, in the games I have seen holtby play is that he tries too hard in a deeper role to hang onto the ball and just pick a possesion pass. Where as when he plays furthter up field he seems to be instantly thinking of the 1-2 or the quick release. I think his best games for us came further up field, and also he played in that position for both Shalke and Germany.

All im trying to get across, is the type of pass he needs to make in a deep role is different to further upfield. And much like VDV i see that he comes alive in those spaces. And he seems more aware of the need to release it early the less space there is than when he is playing deeper. Once he gets closed down he often loses it in the deeper role.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: *Official* Holtby

I general i agree with that. But the point I was trying to make, in the games I have seen holtby play is that he tries too hard in a deeper role to hang onto the ball and just pick a possesion pass. Where as when he plays furthter up field he seems to be instantly thinking of the 1-2 or the quick release. I think his best games for us came further up field, and also he played in that position for both Shalke and Germany.

All im trying to get across, is the type of pass he needs to make in a deep role is different to further upfield. And much like VDV i see that he comes alive in those spaces. And he seems more aware of the need to release it early the less space there is than when he is playing deeper. Once he gets closed down he often loses it in the deeper role.

He played well for us in a deeper role against Basel I thought. He was hit and miss in the more advanced positions too. I don't think you can read too much into how he did in various roles during his rather few appearances last season.

Him trying too hard, or not trying the right things is quite normal for a young player in a new club and a new league. That will sort itself out I'm sure. As will him losing possession too often (assuming that it was a problem, I don't remember it being one) in the deeper position. Just about any player with the skills and ability on the ball to play effectively in a number 10 role will have the skills on the ball to avoid losing it in a deeper role too.

As was said in the article posted by Rorschach on the previous page he played several positions, including quite frequently a deeper role, for Schalke. Not surprised to see Germany use him further forward for their youth team, at those age groups it's quite common to just get your better attacking players as far forward as possible if you pardon my oversimplification.

 

[Rorschach]

Re: *Official* Holtby

He's not a playmaker, but if we keep Bale and we play 4-2-3-1 then I think Bale will play in the hole. The playmaking will have to be provided by Chadli, Sig, Lennon, Townsend and possibly Holtby from the wider positions and from our deeper midfielders and defenders I think.

People rave about a number 10 playmaker, but as we saw when we have VdV that's not a panacea either. We struggled to break down stubborn teams plenty of times with VdV in the team as well. That player still needs to get the ball in dangerous positions. And VdV even ended up relying on Crouch to be the provider quite a bit.

I think Soldado will be just fine with Bale behind him in a 4-2-3-1 as long as the rest of the team do their jobs. I hope and think players like Chadli and Paulinho will up our creativity to overcome at least some of the problems we had last season.

My recollection of VDVs time as number 10 was that we made a lot more chances than we do now. We just seemed to miss a lot of them too. I can remember many a match thread where we were left scratching our heads how we had not come away with all three points. Chances were not the problem, it was taking them that was.

Bale is sort of a one trick pony. It's a bloody good trick but 9 times out 10 if you feed him the ball in that position and you know what he's going to do, and it won't be play the ball into the striker. That trick won us a lot of points last season and by GHod we were thankful for that trick but it did make us very one dimensional in my opinion. Having a true number 10 would enable us to play a more expansive game to play to Soldado's strengths too.

If you play say Chadli, Bale and Townsend behind the striker I see lots of long range shots from all three. Actually I don;t really know about Chadli yet so we'll see but the other two are rather single minded when they get around the opposition box.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: *Official* Holtby

My recollection of VDVs time as number 10 was that we made a lot more chances than we do now. We just seemed to miss a lot of them too. I can remember many a match thread where we were left scratching our heads how we had not come away with all three points. Chances were not the problem, it was taking them that was.

Bale is sort of a one trick pony. It's a bloody good trick but 9 times out 10 if you feed him the ball in that position and you know what he's going to do, and it won't be play the ball into the striker. That trick won us a lot of points last season and by GHod we were thankful for that trick but it did make us very one dimensional in my opinion. Having a true number 10 would enable us to play a more expansive game to play to Soldado's strengths too.

If you play say Chadli, Bale and Townsend behind the striker I see lots of long range shots from all three. Actually I don;t really know about Chadli yet so we'll see but the other two are rather single minded when they get around the opposition box.

We were inconsistent with VdV as well. Also remember that we had Modric in a deeper role in those days, he played a major part in our chances created I think (although I'm not up for that discussion all over again if you disagree )

Lennon will start ahead of Townsend I think.

I don't think Bale made us one dimensional, the rest of the players made us overly reliant on Bale and one dimensional. You add Paulinho and Chadli to the 4-2-3-1 team that we had last season and I think there's more creativity in there immediately.

Bale is also a very good creator of chances even if not a proper playmaker. He will drift around, get crosses, passes, get involved. And with Soldado in there I think he will get more assists.

 

[Rorschach]

Re: *Official* Holtby

We were inconsistent with VdV as well. Also remember that we had Modric in a deeper role in those days, he played a major part in our chances created I think (although I'm not up for that discussion all over again if you disagree )

Lennon will start ahead of Townsend I think.

I don't think Bale made us one dimensional, the rest of the players made us overly reliant on Bale and one dimensional. You add Paulinho and Chadli to the 4-2-3-1 team that we had last season and I think there's more creativity in there immediately.

Bale is also a very good creator of chances even if not a proper playmaker. He will drift around, get crosses, passes, get involved. And with Soldado in there I think he will get more assists.

Of course Modric was a big part but the thrust of my point is that a pure number 10 helps with chance creation. Bale is not a number 10 by the usual definition of the position. Bale is rather one dimensional when he plays in there I would say. Less so when he cuts in and that is where he would serve Spurs better IMO. A bit of mix and match, no?

Anyway I'm sensing we see things differently but I gotta leave it there.

 

[Amor]

Re: *Official* Holtby

If we play more of the kind of football on display vs. Espanyol he will have a great season.

 

[SpurredJon]

Re: *Official* Holtby

So unfortunate that his pre-season has been so disrupted. This is his big year. Hope his injury is not too serious

 

[Amor]

Re: *Official* Holtby

Do we know anything about his injury?