Nuno Espírito Santo - Sacked

[thfcsteff]

Wasn't it reported - or perhaps speculated/rumoured might be more accurate - that Levy did want to appoint a DoF during Poch's time, but Poch didn't want one?

Not sure exactly when that would’ve been TBH, but we again should not forget that part of Poch’s team when he came in was Paul Mitchell as head of player recruitment. In his short time with us, Mitchell did manage Dele, Son, Trippier and Toby (equally there was a Stambouli too) but we cannot forget the abrupt way in which he quit in 2016/got given gardening leave. It timed with the Mane/Winaldjum summer. I am not sure if the correlation is direct, but it feels as though it is less than coincidental. Funnily enough, wasn’t it a year later that Poch released that book? THAT was a game changer for me in one sense (not a good one!), but I wonder if once Mitchell left, Poch got worried.

Someone asked whether Levy would’ve refused to appoint a DoF had Poch asked. My guess is he was so involved in the stadium it would’ve been the last thing on his mind. I think a major part of that whole situation going south was insane overachievement on the field versus mad scrambling to deliver the stadium. Whenever the time came to make vital steps in the market, we chose the lesser options. I think that is why we stopped signing players. Poch seemed to get fed up with Janssens and N’Koudous, thus he decided to wait for what he really wanted. A shame that when he got two of them he was off shortly thereafter. There are certainly details we’ll never know…we all have our opinions of course.

But it’s long gone now, and In Nuno I Trust.

 

[thfcsteff]

Steff, I'm a poch fan as well mate, and don't want to make this a Poch Vs Levy thing.

But Poch was part of the team that identified Sissoko, and Janssen as targets to pursue. Maybe Mane and Winnaldum were his top targets but his other top targets include: Ndombele and saido Berahino... so you know he wasn't infallible

Again don't want to turn this into an anti poch thing at all, but identifying a player maybe wasn't his strong point yet he wanted more control over this process. Which he got, leading to the infamous 18months plus other things which ultimately left our squad so unbalanced, and desperately needing a refresh. I could go on but this post is starting to sound anti Poch and it's not intended that way.

I replied to Glennda but take it also as replying to you. Really good to have a civil conversation about the situation, much appreciated, albeit our viewpoints differ in several places on the topic mate.

 

[Lemonade Money]

Not sure exactly when that would’ve been TBH, but we again should not forget that part of Poch’s team when he came in was Paul Mitchell as head of player recruitment. In his short time with us, Mitchell did manage Dele, Son, Trippier and Toby (equally there was a Stambouli too) but we cannot forget the abrupt way in which he quit in 2016/got given gardening leave. It timed with the Mane/Winaldjum summer. I am not sure if the correlation is direct, but it feels as though it is less than coincidental. Funnily enough, wasn’t it a year later that Poch released that book? THAT was a game changer for me in one sense (not a good one!), but I wonder if once Mitchell left, Poch got worried.

Someone asked whether Levy would’ve refused to appoint a DoF had Poch asked. My guess is he was so involved in the stadium it would’ve been the last thing on his mind. I think a major part of that whole situation going south was insane overachievement on the field versus mad scrambling to deliver the stadium. Whenever the time came to make vital steps in the market, we chose the lesser options. I think that is why we stopped signing players. Poch seemed to get fed up with Janssens and N’Koudous, thus he decided to wait for what he really wanted. A shame that when he got two of them he was off shortly thereafter. There are certainly details we’ll never know…we all have our opinions of course.

But it’s long gone now, and In Nuno I Trust.

Levy bestowed Poch with N'Kudos for doing such a fine job.

 

[Bishop]

I'm not saying that @DubaiSpur is anti semitic. I'm saying that some of the abuse that Levy gets is born from Anti semitic thoughts. How can you call someone who has built the best and most expensive football stadium in the world "penny pinching" ? What about his investment in at the time the best training facilities in world? I maintain that I'm uncomfortable with the characterisation of Levy as "penny pinching" I see no logical factual reason why he would ever be described as such.

Is your argument that he is not a penny pincher because he has spent the club's money on the investment with no personal risk to his finances? I'm not quite sure I understand your reasoning. There was no personal investment in the stadium or training ground developments. Both have been entirely funded from the clubs own generated funds. Why would spending that money absolve him of being seen as a penny pincher?

@DubaiSpur has always been very clear in his criticisms, ENIC are an investment company and have no interest in personally investing into the club. He would prefer an owner that would.

 

[Robspur12]

I'm not saying that @DubaiSpur is anti semitic. I'm saying that some of the abuse that Levy gets is born from Anti semitic thoughts. How can you call someone who has built the best and most expensive football stadium in the world "penny pinching" ? What about his investment in at the time the best training facilities in world? I maintain that I'm uncomfortable with the characterisation of Levy as "penny pinching" I see no logical factual reason why he would ever be described as such.

Dubai acknowledges that Levy and ENIC spend the clubs money to improve the infrastructure because that increases the value of their investment. Where he refers to them as penny pinching is that they will not invest their own money to make the team successful. You may or may not agree with that line of thought but to assert it in the first place does not infer "antisemitic thought processes". I think we should be very careful before we throw around accusations like that. It can shut down legitimate debate.

 

[DTA]

Is your argument that he is not a penny pincher because he has spent the club's money on the investment with no personal risk to his finances? I'm not quite sure I understand your reasoning. There was no personal investment in the stadium or training ground developments. Both have been entirely funded from the clubs own generated funds. Why would spending that money absolve him of being seen as a penny pincher?

@DubaiSpur has always been very clear in his criticisms, ENIC are an investment company and have no interest in personally investing into the club. He would prefer an owner that would.

Dubai acknowledges that Levy and ENIC spend the clubs money to improve the infrastructure because that increases the value of their investment. Where he refers to them as penny pinching is that they will not invest their own money to make the team successful. You may or may not agree with that line of thought but to assert it in the first place does not infer "antisemitic thought processes". I think we should be very careful before we throw around accusations like that. It can shut down legitimate debate.

Club's money??? I hate to break it to you guys... but Levy and Lewis own the club. The club's money is their money. If they take out loans for infrastructure projects from the banks, they do so against their asset.

So let's stop that right there.

Anybody that looks at our stadium, or general improvement under Levy that has transformed us, and then calls him "penny pinching " or "small time", needs to look deep in to the reasoning of those choice of words. I maintain that I believe that in my view there is an element of anti semitism in those descriptions, they fit antisemitic rhetoric much more then they can ever be a fair description of Levy.

None of that means you can't criticise Levy, of course you can. Call him out for the mistakes he has made (he like everyone else makes them)

 

[Raziel]

Dubai acknowledges that Levy and ENIC spend the clubs money to improve the infrastructure because that increases the value of their investment. Where he refers to them as penny pinching is that they will not invest their own money to make the team successful. You may or may not agree with that line of thought but to assert it in the first place does not infer "antisemitic thought processes". I think we should be very careful before we throw around accusations like that. It can shut down legitimate debate.

It's two separate things

- The general narrative around Spurs -> evil skint CEO, counting every penny and extracting his pound of flesh with every sale, dangerously borders on anti-Semitic and quite honestly everyone should take a second look and consider would that really still be the narrative if Levy wasn't Jewish? (see the talksport call in example)

- Re Dubai (and I have no issue with him, we have had numerous fun debates over the years), I think what frustrates some people is he often (see last couple of pages) presents a very valid view on the club/challenges/where we are/were but then lets his ENIC/Levy dislike kick in at the end and always blurs his final conclusion, i.e. it's always malicious intent/incompetence from ENIC vs. any combination of circumstance (even when he has laid out the circumstance). But as you have pointed out, everyone here is entitled to their opinion.

 

[Lilbaz]

It's two separate things

- The general narrative around Spurs -> evil skint CEO, counting every penny and extracting his pound of flesh with every sale, dangerously borders on anti-Semitic and quite honestly everyone should take a second look and consider would that really still be the narrative if Levy wasn't Jewish? (see the talksport call in example)

- Re Dubai (and I have no issue with him, we have had numerous fun debates over the years), I think what frustrates some people is he often (see last couple of pages) presents a very valid view on the club/challenges/where we are/were but then lets his ENIC/Levy dislike kick in at the end and always blurs his final conclusion, i.e. it's always malicious intent/incompetence from ENIC vs. any combination of circumstance (even when he has laid out the circumstance). But as you have pointed out, everyone here is entitled to their opinion.

Not everything is racist. Arsenal fans for years criticised kronke and wenger for not spending money. Most fans do. Because of the likes of chelsea, blackburn andcity's owners spending so much of their own money on players. Fans expect their owners to do the same. Which is ridiculous.

 

[Raziel]

Not everything is racist. Arsenal fans for years criticised kronke and wenger for not spending money. Most fans do. Because of the likes of chelsea, blackburn andcity's owners spending so much of their own money on players. Fans expect their owners to do the same. Which is ridiculous.

No, but there is racism/anti-Semitism and there is unconscious bias

- Most of us laughingly say when someone wants to buy a top Spurs player = "good luck dealing with Levy, he's going to demand top dollar for the player"
- Then you watch the guy call into talksport and say pretty much the exact same thing, but adds at the end "because he's a Jew"

It should make all of us pause, not because I'm saying we/you/anyone is racist, but because unconscious bias does play into how we view the world

 

[Robspur12]

Club's money??? I hate to break it to you guys... but Levy and Lewis own the club. The club's money is their money. If they take out loans for infrastructure projects from the banks, they do so against their asset.

Just to pick you up there, the club is owned by ENIC International Ltd. They take out loans against the company's assets not their personal ones. Levy is salaried as I am sure you are aware. Their original outlay in buying Spurs has been paid back many times over.

But in any case that was not the point I was making. I was merely trying to illustrate that you can assert the opinion that they do not spend their own personal capital as some other owners do, they spend only what the club makes on transfers and profit, have us perpetually being the bridesmaids but never the bride and not be anti semitic.

I am astonished that you and @Raziel can put this forward without any evidence and as a means of shutting down a contrary view to yours. By all means disagree but to throw around racial accusations is really poor from 2 normally excellent posters. Btw I don't even know if Joe Lewis is Jewish.

 

[Lilbaz]

No, but there is racism/anti-Semitism and there is unconscious bias

- Most of us laughingly say when someone wants to buy a top Spurs player = "good luck dealing with Levy, he's going to demand top dollar for the player"
- Then you watch the guy call into talksport and say pretty much the exact same thing, but adds at the end "because he's a Jew"

It should make all of us pause, not because I'm saying we/you/anyone is racist, but because unconscious bias does play into how we view the world

That was one idiots comments that was rightly condemned.

Levy gets his reputation from comments like this

https://www.spurs-web.com/spurs-new...levy-has-always-been-a-struggle-to-deal-with/

Not because he's Jewish. We don't speak the same way about gold or abramovich.

 

[NoLimits01]

No, but there is racism/anti-Semitism and there is unconscious bias

- Most of us laughingly say when someone wants to buy a top Spurs player = "good luck dealing with Levy, he's going to demand top dollar for the player"
- Then you watch the guy call into talksport and say pretty much the exact same thing, but adds at the end "because he's a Jew"

It should make all of us pause, not because I'm saying we/you/anyone is racist, but because unconscious bias does play into how we view the world

At work when it comes to letting a large contract the lawyers sit us down and we have to go through an unconscious bias assessment, all very interesting and boring at the same time, but it does highlight that if you take the bias out of any decision the end result is a very bland and consistent view of the world. This has been explained to me like so... because experience leads to taking a personal view of the world, its that view that translates to unconscious bias.

Or I could just have sadistic procurement lawyers

 

[Lilbaz]

Just to pick you up there, the club is owned by ENIC International Ltd. They take out loans against the company's assets not their personal ones. Levy is salaried as I am sure you are aware. Their original outlay in buying Spurs has been paid back many times over.

But in any case that was not the point I was making. I was merely trying to illustrate that you can assert the opinion that they do not spend their own personal capital as some other owners do, they spend only what the club makes on transfers and profit, have us perpetually being the bridesmaids but never the bride and not be anti semitic.

I am astonished that you and @Raziel can put this forward without any evidence and as a means of shutting down a contrary view to yours. By all means disagree but to throw around racial accusations is really poor from 2 normally excellent posters. Btw I don't even know if Joe Lewis is Jewish.

A question for you, if you go into a shop do you expect them to sell you something at a loss or a profit?

 

[DTA]

Just to pick you up there, the club is owned by ENIC International Ltd. They take out loans against the company's assets not their personal ones. Levy is salaried as I am sure you are aware. Their original outlay in buying Spurs has been paid back many times over.

But in any case that was not the point I was making. I was merely trying to illustrate that you can assert the opinion that they do not spend their own personal capital as some other owners do, they spend only what the club makes on transfers and profit, have us perpetually being the bridesmaids but never the bride and not be anti semitic.

I am astonished that you and @Raziel can put this forward without any evidence and as a means of shutting down a contrary view to yours. By all means disagree but to throw around racial accusations is really poor from 2 normally excellent posters. Btw I don't even know if Joe Lewis is Jewish.

And who owns Enic? Them raising capital against their asset and investing that capital in the club is them putting money into the club. If they were raising money through their asset and not investing it in to the club (which is their right to do) then they would be taking money from the club.

Levy is indeed a salaried employee the most productive one we have had for at least 60 years. But he also part owner of Enic and therefore spurs.

That doesn't mean he doesn't make mistakes everyone does, including him. So criticise those mistakes if you like. But when you start calling him "penny pinching" and "small time" then not only is that a personal attack but it's completely unjustified and its hard to see where that is coming from apart from antisemitic characterisations of a Jewish business man.

 

[Robspur12]

And who owns Enic? Them raising capital against their asset and investing that capital in the club is them putting money into the club. If they were raising money through their asset and not investing it in to the club (which is their right to do) then they would be taking money from the club.

Levy is indeed a salaried employee the most productive one we have had for at least 60 years. But he also part owner of Enic and therefore spurs.

That doesn't mean he doesn't make mistakes everyone does, including him. So criticise those mistakes if you like. But when you start calling him "penny pinching" and "small time" then not only is that a personal attack but it's completely unjustified and its hard to see where that is coming from apart from antisemitic characterisations of a Jewish business man.

No one's owns ENIC. In theory, and I say this not as an expert in Company law, they could dissolve tomorrow and take their debts with them, the directors declared bankrupt and a new company and new directors set up as owners of the club. In any case the personal assets of Levy and Joe Lewis not liable.

I am not arguing against Levy by the way. I am pointing out that you shouldnt be making broad accusations of antisemitism.

 

[Lilbaz]

No one's owns ENIC. In theory, and I say this not as an expert in Company law, they could dissolve tomorrow and take their debts with them, the directors declared bankrupt and a new company and new directors set up as owners of the club. In any case the personal assets of Levy and Joe Lewis not liable.

I am not arguing against Levy by the way. I am pointing out that you shouldnt be making broad accusations of antisemitism.

It's a limited company so they have limited liability. Only sole traders or partnerships, the owners would be liable for debts. Not ltd's or plc's.

 

[DTA]

No one's owns ENIC. In theory, and I say this not as an expert in Company law, they could dissolve tomorrow and take their debts with them, the directors declared bankrupt and a new company and new directors set up as owners of the club. In any case the personal assets of Levy and Joe Lewis not liable.

I am not arguing against Levy by the way. I am pointing out that you shouldnt be making broad accusations of antisemitism.

They own the shares that make up the ownership of Enic. Just like I own the shares of the (very small) companies that I "own". The assets of the companies may not be owned by me directly but as I owned the shares that make up the ownership of the company they are indirectly owned by me...same thing with Enic but on a much much larger scale.

Liabilities against loans depends on the terms of the loans and as far as I know no one here knows about those terms.

In the most part a Ltd will give you liability ring fenced to the company. However if you want to buy property through a ltd company then the banks can/ will ask for personal liability as well, even if you are buying and borrowing through the ltd company dependant maybe on the property type/ and or nature of the business/ loan type.

Whether the above happened through the stadium build I have no idea. But the terms we got from the banks seem favorable so maybe it did.

 

[Lilbaz]

They own the shares that make up the ownership of Enic. Just like I own the shares of the (very small) companies that I "own". The assets of the companies may not be owned by me directly but as I owned the shares that make up the ownership of the company they are indirectly owned by me...same thing with Enic but on a much much larger scale.

Liabilities against loans depends on the terms of the loans and as far as I know no one here knows about those terms.

In the most part a Ltd will give you liability ring fenced to the company. However if you want to buy property through a ltd company then the banks can/ will ask for personal liability as well, even if you are buying and borrowing through the ltd company dependant maybe on the property type/ and or nature of the business/ loan type.

Whether the above happened through the stadium build I have no idea. But the terms we got from the banks seem favorable so maybe it did.

Tavistok were a guarantor of at least 1 of the loans. Levy mentioned it in his letter to sadiq khan.

 

[Raziel]

At work when it comes to letting a large contract the lawyers sit us down and we have to go through an unconscious bias assessment, all very interesting and boring at the same time, but it does highlight that if you take the bias out of any decision the end result is a very bland and consistent view of the world. This has been explained to me like so... because experience leads to taking a personal view of the world, its that view that translates to unconscious bias.

Or I could just have sadistic procurement lawyers

taking bias completely out is pretty much impossible, what you have to try to do is be aware of possible bias and just confirm are you thinking/acting/deciding on something out of an assumption that typically comes out of bias or actually facts/scenario.

I work in tech and one of the most interesting things is how artificial intelligence when exposed to data (the way it learns) almost inevitably begins to show a bias, sometimes to the point where the AI is a racist piece of brick, so it shows our environment, the way we experiences things, our data inputs can easily lead a thing with no emotions, no connections, no tribe to a biased point of view. Sitting here and saying it doesn't apply to me/you is naïve at best.

 

[Raziel]

I am astonished that you and @Raziel can put this forward without any evidence and as a means of shutting down a contrary view to yours. By all means disagree but to throw around racial accusations is really poor from 2 normally excellent posters. Btw I don't even know if Joe Lewis is Jewish.

Read my post again, I made no accusation or insulation against anyone on this board, I specifically separated the issues

- One was there is a general narrative around the club and Levy in specific that is quite honestly classic Jew profiling, and I'm sorry @Lilbaz it's not one idiot, it's one idiot who in fudging 2021 felt comfortable actually saying that on a public call in show.

- The second was my response to posters frustration with Dubai and others who have very good points, very good observations but often get to a forgone conclusion of malice/incompetence on the part of ENIC/Levy regardless of even the case they themselves present.

I made no case to connect the first point with the second (I think among fans there is sometimes an almost personal level of dislike to certain owners that drives people)

I did make a case, and see my previous post that we should each consider if our points of view contain certain biases in them, that in itself is inevitable but not me calling anyone a racist or anti-Semite