No Spurs v West Brom omt yet? Can this be it?

[harr1984]

There's three counter-arguments to this viewpoint, however.

The first is that we as fans provide the institutional memory that permeates the club - it's a feedback loop that stems from the stands, is amplified by the media and is then conveyed to the ears of the folks at the club. It matters - it's probably one of the only voices any fans in England have left in the running of their club, since any real input or power was taken away from them a long time ago.

So, that is definitely a way by which the current lot are infused with the memories of our past. Now, you might say that this necessitates the fans *forgetting* the past in order to get the players to do so as well, but that goes into the age-old question of whether the players need to inspire the fans to believe or the other way around. There's no easy answer to that. But, either way, there is a definite mechanism by which players learn the history of our club, and by doing so adopt its baggage.

The second is that ,even if the players are unaware of our baggage, our opponents definitely are. I can't put it any better than Chiellini did after Juve professionally, carelessly dispatched us with one burst of action. Quoting from the Guardian...



Our opponents *know* we tend to bottle it. They *know* that if they just keep us quiet, our mental demons will start emerging more and more as the game wears on. So it doesn't matter if our players are unaware - our opponents are aware, and they will use it to outdo us.

The third is that the same performances and the same choking in inopportune moments is still present - regardless of the changes in personnel, this team can (and does) still choke at the death when things are on the line. It happens less often, and that is tribute to how heroically Poch has tried to rebuild us....but in the end, we are still making the mistakes we made with different teams, in different eras, many years ago. Not as many, definitely. But they're still there. So surely the team is still afflicted by it, regardless of how we perceive it as fans.

Ultimately, we've been there as fans and we've seen these things happen far too often. But we're not the only ones seeing these things happen. Our opponents have seen them happen. The football world has seen them happen. And this will filter through to whichever sets of players we have, I think - one way or another.

It definitely filters through to them. The media bring history of specific games up to Poch and the players on a regular basis. They’re all aware...

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

You’re right that the fans have suffered but this current crop have too - Vertonghen, Dembele, Kane etc they’ve already suffered plenty of these types of disappointments where we’ve fallen short in one way or another it’s not just the fans. As for the we will lose otherwise we will win the quadruple every season, I don’t understand that comment. All the other top 6 have won trophies in recent years bar us, Liverpool could well win CL this year - none of them have won the quadruple but they have all won trophies even in their poor periods. That is the difference between us and the rest...

Liverpool have won nothing recently either.

We have really only been 'amongst it' since Poch arrived. (Perhaps HR should have won us a cup?).
My point is, teams lose games. City bottled it at Liverpool, at Wigan. man utd bottled it against Seville, at Bristol City. Arsenal bottle it every week they are away. Chelsea bottled it against us.

Do I think they bottled it. No. And I don't think we do.

We lost close games (as they did) against very good teams. Those match ups are often 50-50.

 

[harr1984]

Liverpool have one nothing recently either.

We have really only been 'amongst it' since Poch arrived. (Perhaps HR should have won us a cup?).
My point is, teams lose games. City bottled it at Liverpool, at Wigan. man utd bottled it against Seville, at Bristol City. Arsenal bottle it every week they are away. Chelsea bottled it against us.

Do I think they bottled it. No. And I don't think we do.

We lost close games (as they did) against very good teams. Those match ups are often 50-50.

Yeah and you’re talking about over the course of this season when these teams have bottled it. But each of those teams have gone into either this season or in past few seasons still won something - because it’s a habit. We don’t have any such habit which is why we always fall short. Not just this season, last season, the season before that too. So for all the excuses how each match against a good team is 50-50 it’s funny how all the other good teams have found a way to make sure if they don’t win anything in a specific season they do in the next one or one after that. We need to find a way to achieve this too....

 

[parklane1]

Yeah and you’re talking about over the course of this season when these teams have bottled it. But each of those teams have gone into either this season or in past few seasons still won something - because it’s a habit. We don’t have any such habit which is why we always fall short. Not just this season, last season, the season before that too. So for all the excuses how each match against a good team is 50-50 it’s funny how all the other good teams have found a way to make sure if they don’t win anything in a specific season they do in the next one or one after that. We need to find a way to achieve this too....

Good post, we have made a habit of losing crunch games ( and its been happening for years). Its why i keep saying we do NOT have a winners mentality and until we actually win a trophy we never will. Of course there will be many on here who will insist that we have one and everything in the garden is rosy on that score, and watch as we keep losing those crunch games and our players leaving to join clubs that do/will win things.

 

[harr1984]

Good post, we have made a habit of losing crunch games ( and its been happening for years). Its why i keep saying we do NOT have a winners mentality and until we actually win a trophy we never will. Of course there will be many on here who will insist that we have one and everything in the garden is rosy on that score, and watch as we keep losing those crunch games and our players leaving to join clubs that do/will win things.

Agree with all of this, just hope this post doesn’t encourage the winners mentality debate again

 

[parklane1]

Agree with all of this, just hope this post doesn’t encourage the winners mentality debate again

We live in hope

 

[Yermiyahu]

Good post, we have made a habit of losing crunch games ( and its been happening for years). Its why i keep saying we do NOT have a winners mentality and until we actually win a trophy we never will. Of course there will be many on here who will insist that we have one and everything in the garden is rosy on that score, and watch as we keep losing those crunch games and our players leaving to join clubs that do/will win things.

Pirate? is that you?

 

[Pirate55]

Pirate? is that you?

No, but it took the words out of my mouth !

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Was yesterday really a ‘crunch’ game, if we’ve still got the opportunity left to achieve the goal of a CL spot?
Obviously winning would have made it more comfortable, and we have put pressure on ourselves that could have been avoided but I’m not sure yesterday counts as crunch?

 

[Seedy Ron]

Was yesterday really a ‘crunch’ game, if we’ve still got the opportunity left to achieve the goal of a CL spot?
Obviously winning would have made it more comfortable, and we have put pressure on ourselves that could have been avoided but I’m not sure yesterday counts as crunch?

The rule is if we lose, it was crunch and we need to throw ourselves in the sea.

Pretty simple, surprised you're struggling with it tbh.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Was yesterday really a ‘crunch’ game, if we’ve still got the opportunity left to achieve the goal of a CL spot?
Obviously winning would have made it more comfortable, and we have put pressure on ourselves that could have been avoided but I’m not sure yesterday counts as crunch?

Apparently it was more a crunch game than Chelsea away. Struggling to figure that one out.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

The rule is if we lose, it was crunch and we need to throw ourselves in the sea.

Pretty simple, surprised you're struggling with it tbh.

Yeah sorry. Obviously overthinking it.

 

[alekaras]

Yeah and you’re talking about over the course of this season when these teams have bottled it. But each of those teams have gone into either this season or in past few seasons still won something - because it’s a habit. We don’t have any such habit which is why we always fall short. Not just this season, last season, the season before that too. So for all the excuses how each match against a good team is 50-50 it’s funny how all the other good teams have found a way to make sure if they don’t win anything in a specific season they do in the next one or one after that. We need to find a way to achieve this too....

Yes, but these teams have been perennially good. We've been good just the past 2-3 years. So a more apt comparison would be to look at whether those teams have gone through a 2-3 year period without winning a trophy and they have. We expect that the moment we're good the trophies are going to start pouring in. It doesn't work that way.

 

[Mikey10]

Was yesterday really a ‘crunch’ game, if we’ve still got the opportunity left to achieve the goal of a CL spot?
Obviously winning would have made it more comfortable, and we have put pressure on ourselves that could have been avoided but I’m not sure yesterday counts as crunch?

The rule is if we lose, it was crunch and we need to throw ourselves in the sea.

Pretty simple, surprised you're struggling with it tbh.

It’s all getting a bit ‘Scouse cult’ for me on here. No one dare question anything about Poch’s methods or they will be damned to eternal sarcasm.

Two massive opportunities now for Poch to show that he can have us motivated, performing and doing the business at home against two sides with absolutely nothing to play for. There really is no excuse if we can’t do it. No one will be happier than me if he get us there.

 

[Seedy Ron]

It's the way any sense of proportion immediately goes for a Burton whenever we lose a game that gets on my wick (and is also very 'Pool btw).

We're top 4, have 2 games at home against mid table sides left, and if we win them we will finish third. It's a good position to be in.

 

[harr1984]

It’s all getting a bit ‘Scouse cult’ for me on here. No one dare question anything about Poch’s methods or they will be damned to eternal sarcasm.

Two massive opportunities now for Poch to show that he can have us motivated, performing and doing the business at home against two sides with absolutely nothing to play for. There really is no excuse if we can’t do it. No one will be happier than me if he get us there.

Has been noticeable for a while on here that if you question anything Poch does you get shouted down on here regardless of whether it’s a valid criticism or not - it will be portrayed that you’ve just said he’s rubbish and should be fired immediately....

 

[Mikey10]

My comments weren’t just about yesterday’s game though - without getting into it all too much again, for me it was another really important game (we could have basically sealed CL football for the first season in our new stadium) which fits into a PATTERN of other really key games that we have lost under Poch. When it comes to those key moments the evidence presently is that his team simply doesn’t deliver.

Anyhow, he’s got two chances to show that he can this week and I sincerely hope that he does.

 

[billyiddo]

Has been noticeable for a while on here that if you question anything Poch does you get shouted down on here regardless of whether it’s a valid criticism or not - it will be portrayed that you’ve just said he’s rubbish and should be fired immediately....

It's a message board with many different users and no opinion is going to be agreed upon across the board - unless you're arrogant enough to think your opinion is fact i don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

 

[Mikey10]

it's a message board with many different users and no opinion is going to be agreed upon across the board - unless your arrogant enough to think your opinion is fact i don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

Read back over the comments of the last 24 hours and you’ll see a difference in tone between those who want a serious debate on Poch’s merits and deficiencies and those who do, too often, shout others down. It’s a shame, as this has always been a good forum for serious debate and one of the nicer corners of the internet.

 

[billyiddo]

Read back over the comments of the last 24 hours and you’ll see a difference in tone between those who want a serious debate on Poch’s merits and deficiencies and those who do, too often, shout others down.

Ive read plenty of the posts made in the last 24hrs mate and it's typical toys out of the pram after a dissapointing result stuff for the most part from what i have seen - once the dust has settled you'll get get more reasoned debate from both sides.

Don't confuse calling the manager in to question with having a serious debate, especially when logic has long since left the room