Next Spurs Manager v.2

[Lemonade Money]

So what is being said in the Netherlands?

PLEASE DON'T GO
De Telegraaf report that Tottenham claim no such approach to De Boer has been made and also reveal that Ajax player Daley Blind does not want his coach to leave.

The 24-year-old hopes he stays, but understands why he would consider the Tottenham job after winning four straight league titles at Ajax.

SEARCH FOR SUCCESSOR
Algemeen Dagblad have already begun speculating on De Boer's successor at Ajax. The publication claim Hennie Spijkerman will follow De Boer out of Amsterdam, with former Ajax players Frank Rijkaard and Michael Laudrup touted as replacements as both are on good terms with the influential Johan Cruyff. Denmark boss Morten Olsen, Milan and ex-Ajax midfielder Clarence Seedorf have also been tipped, while outgoing Feyenoord coach Ronald Koeman has even been mentioned.

FRANKLY, YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY ONE
Volkskrant carry reports of Tottenham's denial that an approach for De Boer has been made, though, they also report Southampton manager Mauricio Pochettino is high on Tottenham's shortlist.

FINDING A REPLACEMENT WILL BE TOUGH
Het Parool explain Spurs wanted De Boer to replace Andre Villas-Boas when he lost his job in December, but the Dutchman rejected their advances, highlighting his contract does not expire until 2017. However, they also carry quotes from De Boer that he will discuss his future following the conclusion of the current Eredivisie season, though currently De Boer expects to lead Ajax in pre-season. Although no decision has been made yet, it would be a blow if any move did happen considering he has won four consecutive titles without splashing the cash and also using the club's home-grown players. They insist director of football Marc Overmars will have his work cut out to find a replacement who can continue these winning ways.


http://talksport.com/football/campa...n-netherlands-14043089339#4PigLwx8KjUj0zbz.99

 

[Lemonade Money]

With Ajax boss Frank de Boer now heavily linked with the Tottenham manager's job, Dutch football expert Elko Born explains why he may be the right fit for the North London club...

A track record of success
Frank de Boer - not to be confused with his twin brother Ronald - started his managerial career with the Dutch national team, where he was an assistant to manager Bert van Marwijk during the World Cup in 2010. The Netherlands did well during that tournament, reaching the final before losing to Spain in extra time.
After the World Cup, De Boer became a youth coach at Ajax. Even then, people knew he wouldn’t stay in that job for long. De Boer’s talents as a manager were obvious, and as a true Ajax man, he was already being touted for a job as first team manager.
In December 2010, Ajax sacked their manager Martin Jol. De Boer was immediately pushed forward as the new boss. He wasted no time, immediately making drastic changes to the regular first XI, and got off to a flying start, with his team beating AC Milan 2-0 in a Champions League group match.
Ajax had struggled under Jol, but De Boer immediately turned things around and won their first league title in seven years - ending a disastrously bad spell by their high standards. The next year, Ajax did it again, and the year after… and the year after that.
The Amsterdam club have not only reclaimed Dutch pre-eminence, they have won the league four times in succession under De Boer - more consecutive titles than were won by Rinus Michels, Johan Cruyff or Louis van Gaal. What’s more, Ajax have achieved a string of decent results in the Champions League; although De Boer never succeeded in leading his side beyond the group stage, he did mastermind victories over the likes of Emirates Marketing Project and Barcelona, while Manchester United were also defeated at Old Trafford in the Europa League.

A knack for player development
De Boer’s appointment at Ajax largely coincided with the start of the so called ‘velvet revolution’: a movement of former Ajax players who want to revolutionise proceedings at the Amsterdam club.
Under the leadership of the legendary Johan Cruyff, former Arsenal stars Marc Overmars and Dennis Bergkamp - the latter being De Boer’s assistant manager - work to prevent Ajax from overspending on expensive transfers, and focus instead on what they’ve always been famous for: their excellent youth academy.
Judging by De Boer’s succes so far, this policy has worked out well. Ajax’s four-in-a-row Eredivisie titles were all won by squads consisting largely of academy graduates and other young players bought for relatively low transfer fees.
This way, the club has given its young players every chance to develop while simultaneously saving money. This money can then be invested in better facilities at the youth academy. The ultimate goal is, of course, to become a sort of talent-factory, constantly producing the world’s most gifted young players.
That may be just as well, as since Daniel Levy arrived at Tottenham, the club have been no strangers to buying low and selling high (see Michael Carrick, Dimitar Berbatov, Luka Modric and Gareth Bale). And Levy will welcome a first-team coach who doesn't expect a huge spending spree - or sole control of transfer matters.

The Vertonghen and Eriksen connection
Most significantly, perhaps, De Boer would relish the chance to be reunited with his former Ajax pupils Jan Vertonghen and Christian Eriksen - who were both constitutive players in De Boer’s title-winning Ajax teams.
In the case of Vertonghen, De Boer would certainly make an attempt to convince the sulky-looking Belgian to stay at Spurs. Seeing as it’s clear that the two have a good understanding - at Ajax, De Boer even made Vertonghen captain - De Boer’s appointment could hugely influence Vertonghen’s perspective and mood.
Of course, it’s likely Christian Eriksen woud love to see De Boer come as well. The Dane was the main creative hub of the Ajax team that beat Emirates Marketing Project and Manchester United in the Champions League and Europa League. At Ajax, De Boer looked at Eriksen to lead attacks and create chances in front of goal.
It seems like a given that De Boer would base his Spurs side around both Vertonghen and Eriksen, who were arguably the best players he managed at Ajax. Both players suit De Boer’s preferred style of play perfectly: Vertonghen because he’s a defender who can pass the ball, and Eriksen because he’s the ideal playmaker.
It’s obvious that in many ways, De Boer would be a good fit for Spurs. The question is: is Daniel Levy prepared to take the chance with the young Dutch manager?

A clear tactical vision
Tottenham's next manager will be expected to finally put the group of players signed at great expense last summer to good use. In that regard, De Boer would be a perfect fit. As his CV shows, he’s excellent at taking a group of young, talented individuals and turning them into a well-functioning team.
In order to achieve this, De Boer would most likely export the philosophy he developed at Ajax to North London. The Dutchman, who often cites Louis van Gaal as his main managerial influence, is a proponent of a possession-based, dominant style of play. In true Dutch tradition, that means a 4-3-3 formation that focuses on intelligent and technical players.
In De Boer’s system, every player is assigned a certain task. Should a player neglect to fulfil his task, De Boer is unforgiving. The Dutchman is often seen storming out of the Ajax dugout to give one of his players a verbal thrashing.
At Spurs, then, De Boer would have various decisions to make. Since there’s only space for one striker in De Boer’s system, what does that mean for players like Roberto Soldado and Emmanuel Adebayor?
One thing seems certain, though: the Dutchman would surely be excited about the chance to work with young and talented players like Erik Lamela - the Argentinian record signing who has so far failed to impress at White Hart Lane.

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features...man-take-spurs-next-level#sqlQdZosvzSpfyFk.99

 

[demotw]

With Ajax boss Frank de Boer now heavily linked with the Tottenham manager's job, Dutch football expert Elko Born explains why he may be the right fit for the North London club...

A track record of success
Frank de Boer - not to be confused with his twin brother Ronald - started his managerial career with the Dutch national team, where he was an assistant to manager Bert van Marwijk during the World Cup in 2010. The Netherlands did well during that tournament, reaching the final before losing to Spain in extra time.
After the World Cup, De Boer became a youth coach at Ajax. Even then, people knew he wouldn’t stay in that job for long. De Boer’s talents as a manager were obvious, and as a true Ajax man, he was already being touted for a job as first team manager.
In December 2010, Ajax sacked their manager Martin Jol. De Boer was immediately pushed forward as the new boss. He wasted no time, immediately making drastic changes to the regular first XI, and got off to a flying start, with his team beating AC Milan 2-0 in a Champions League group match.
Ajax had struggled under Jol, but De Boer immediately turned things around and won their first league title in seven years - ending a disastrously bad spell by their high standards. The next year, Ajax did it again, and the year after… and the year after that.
The Amsterdam club have not only reclaimed Dutch pre-eminence, they have won the league four times in succession under De Boer - more consecutive titles than were won by Rinus Michels, Johan Cruyff or Louis van Gaal. What’s more, Ajax have achieved a string of decent results in the Champions League; although De Boer never succeeded in leading his side beyond the group stage, he did mastermind victories over the likes of Emirates Marketing Project and Barcelona, while Manchester United were also defeated at Old Trafford in the Europa League.

A knack for player development
De Boer’s appointment at Ajax largely coincided with the start of the so called ‘velvet revolution’: a movement of former Ajax players who want to revolutionise proceedings at the Amsterdam club.
Under the leadership of the legendary Johan Cruyff, former Arsenal stars Marc Overmars and Dennis Bergkamp - the latter being De Boer’s assistant manager - work to prevent Ajax from overspending on expensive transfers, and focus instead on what they’ve always been famous for: their excellent youth academy.
Judging by De Boer’s succes so far, this policy has worked out well. Ajax’s four-in-a-row Eredivisie titles were all won by squads consisting largely of academy graduates and other young players bought for relatively low transfer fees.
This way, the club has given its young players every chance to develop while simultaneously saving money. This money can then be invested in better facilities at the youth academy. The ultimate goal is, of course, to become a sort of talent-factory, constantly producing the world’s most gifted young players.
That may be just as well, as since Daniel Levy arrived at Tottenham, the club have been no strangers to buying low and selling high (see Michael Carrick, Dimitar Berbatov, Luka Modric and Gareth Bale). And Levy will welcome a first-team coach who doesn't expect a huge spending spree - or sole control of transfer matters.

The Vertonghen and Eriksen connection
Most significantly, perhaps, De Boer would relish the chance to be reunited with his former Ajax pupils Jan Vertonghen and Christian Eriksen - who were both constitutive players in De Boer’s title-winning Ajax teams.
In the case of Vertonghen, De Boer would certainly make an attempt to convince the sulky-looking Belgian to stay at Spurs. Seeing as it’s clear that the two have a good understanding - at Ajax, De Boer even made Vertonghen captain - De Boer’s appointment could hugely influence Vertonghen’s perspective and mood.
Of course, it’s likely Christian Eriksen woud love to see De Boer come as well. The Dane was the main creative hub of the Ajax team that beat Emirates Marketing Project and Manchester United in the Champions League and Europa League. At Ajax, De Boer looked at Eriksen to lead attacks and create chances in front of goal.
It seems like a given that De Boer would base his Spurs side around both Vertonghen and Eriksen, who were arguably the best players he managed at Ajax. Both players suit De Boer’s preferred style of play perfectly: Vertonghen because he’s a defender who can pass the ball, and Eriksen because he’s the ideal playmaker.
It’s obvious that in many ways, De Boer would be a good fit for Spurs. The question is: is Daniel Levy prepared to take the chance with the young Dutch manager?

A clear tactical vision
Tottenham's next manager will be expected to finally put the group of players signed at great expense last summer to good use. In that regard, De Boer would be a perfect fit. As his CV shows, he’s excellent at taking a group of young, talented individuals and turning them into a well-functioning team.
In order to achieve this, De Boer would most likely export the philosophy he developed at Ajax to North London. The Dutchman, who often cites Louis van Gaal as his main managerial influence, is a proponent of a possession-based, dominant style of play. In true Dutch tradition, that means a 4-3-3 formation that focuses on intelligent and technical players.
In De Boer’s system, every player is assigned a certain task. Should a player neglect to fulfil his task, De Boer is unforgiving. The Dutchman is often seen storming out of the Ajax dugout to give one of his players a verbal thrashing.
At Spurs, then, De Boer would have various decisions to make. Since there’s only space for one striker in De Boer’s system, what does that mean for players like Roberto Soldado and Emmanuel Adebayor?
One thing seems certain, though: the Dutchman would surely be excited about the chance to work with young and talented players like Erik Lamela - the Argentinian record signing who has so far failed to impress at White Hart Lane.

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features...man-take-spurs-next-level#sqlQdZosvzSpfyFk.99

If and I appreciate its a big IF, he does come I wonder whether he will finally be the man to bring Bergkamp to spurs, as I understand he was at one point looking to sign with us?

 

[Spursman]

I think he fits in well with Levy's vision. New stadium being built so he is not going to want to spend money. De Boer sounds as if he can get the best out of players. I can see why we are looking at him. Personally i would prefer a more experienced manager. Saying that, it seems whatever we do it never works out. Something always goes wrong with us.

 

[chancer]

In order:X-factor: I agree with you on FdB over Pochettino here. But for me Pochettino has a lot more X-factor than Sherwood. Can't remember you saying anything about this in our previous discussion. Although, and I will return to this, what X-factor is generally a predictor for managerial success? I can think of many successful managers with and without this somewhat unquantifiable X-factor at the start of their careers and similarly many unsuccessful managers with and without it.

No, the point is neither of them has any X-factor. None. Zero. FdB does. That's why I never mentioned this when discussing P v S - the question only arises when you have a proper big name. It's not a relevant point in a P v S discussion.

Someone who we don't 100% believe in: This seems a lot like circular reasoning to me. FdB is better because he's at the top of our list? You're saying that Pochettino isn't top of your list - so thus you don't rate him? I don't see a point here at all, and I'm surprised you brought it up like this.

I've said over and over and over again in these debates that we can't go for a 2nd tier choice and fully invest emtionally, financially and time-wise in the guy. We'd all be pretending. With FdB, one of the brightest young coaches in Europe, we wouldn't be pretending. Just throw the sink at him.

Playing career: I agree, exceptional. But not in England, as your point was with Pochettino.

No need to overcomplicate it. The equation simply is: 500 Ajax/Barca + 112 Holland v. 500 Blackburn + Spurs + others + 3 England v. Newells/Espanyol/PSG + 20 Argie. That's it. I say Sherwood > Poch but FDB > Both of them. If you remember, you weighted the playing factor way down anyway.

Managers FdB worked under: I agree about FdB, compared to Sherwood. Seems obvious to me. But to me it also seemed obvious that Pochettino's experience stemming from his time working under Bielsa (who he called a second father) was much more exciting than Sherwood's history in this respect. Remember Bielsa was the man Pep went to for tutelage before officially taking over Barca. George Graham and Kenny Dalglish just doesn't do it for me compared to Bielsa, or any of the names you mention.

Fine. Argue for Pochetinno's appointment over FdB then. I'll respect that argument, I just won't agree with it.

Experience: Again, you sum up Pochettino's managerial career in La Liga with "he got sacked in the end". I would agree that on results FdB is the winner here - although perhaps not by much compared to Pochettino. Both are miles and miles ahead of Sherwood though, but that wasn't as important for you in that discussion. Now the (imo) slight advantage FdB here is very important? Again there are other aspects about experience that's important. Pochettino has experience in England, he has experience in two teams and two leagues. He has shown that he can implement his ideas at a new club, in England. This counts for Pochettino over both FdB and obviously Sherwood.

I have explained so, so, so many times that IMO it isn't a hot/cold Poch v. Sherwood decision. It's about whether we twist to a 2nd tier selection like Poch/give him a contact/give him money/allow him restructure our squad, or stick with Sherwood for 1 year and wait/see what happens. I can't believe you're wilfully turning that into "You think Shweood is better than Poch". That is not and never has been the point.

For Pochettino's stay at Espanyol I think it was you that brought up that this was "his club", surely this point is also true for FdB at Ajax. Not only is it "his club", it's a club that's been working his way for generations and although he has moved them in a good direction it's a direction they were prepared to go down. Again, with the Southampton experience, advantage Pochettino for me.

That worry certainly does apply to FdB. No doubt. But its again down to weighing the whole thing up in the round.

Other coaching: I agree, advantage FdB. But a rather small point overall to me, coaching is a very different job to management.

Ok

Youth: Well, I did bring up the youth approach Pochettino had at Espanyol. I suppose you could argue he was forced into that by their finances though. However I could just as easily argue that FdB has been forced into his Ajax approach by their tradition. He also had a history with the youth team, meaning that he knew them well. He won't have that at Spurs. Incidentally our most successful manager in recent years didn't have a particular youth focus at Spurs. What we have seen is that Pochettino can integrate and develop young players in the Premier League in his system for a club that's far from the best in the league. That to me is quite different to the Ajax job where FdB probably has the best young players in the league, at the biggest club in the league, in a fairly weak league with plenty of opportunities to match young players. An opportunity not as available in the Premier League.

And yet Sherwood has done it with Bentaleb, Kane, Fryers and that Serbian kid. Poch is a blank sheet. We don't know.

Transfers: Again, Sherwood said he pushed for Eriksen back two years ago didn't he. I don't trust him any more than I trust any other manager. Do you think if Eriksen was having a poor season that story would have surfaced? Either way what is clear is that none of those 3 are particularly experienced in the transfer market. Ajax are in a very particular situation where they can swoop for the best players in their own league that will be settled and that they will obviously know very well, along with a few younger players from abroad. Pochettino has experience working under a tight budget at Espanyol and working at teams that's far from the top of their respective leagues both for Espanyol and Southampton.

That's what I said in my post.

Style: Attacking football, yes I agree. But is that the end of the discussion about style? Really? I disagree completely. Pochettino, like FdB seems to have a preferred style and system way beyond "I want attacking football". Both of them, unlike Sherwood, have some experience successfully implementing such a system into a functioning first team unit. As I've said before it was clear after a couple of months what style Pochettino wanted at Southampton, way beyond "attacking football". For Sherwood, as of now, I don't feel that I know more than I did a couple of weeks after he took over. Again it seems to me that Pochettino and FdB are in a different category to Sherwood.

There is currently a discussion in the Sherwood thread about changes he's brought in, such as our front 4/5 being more fluid. People saying over and over that Sherwood doesn't have a plan doesn't make it true. He clearly does, and the uptick in our goalscoring shows that.

------------------------------

To me they end up being similar in terms of potential risks and rewards. I find it kinda interesting that I previously argued against someone who asked "why do you rate FdB so highly?" or something similar to that.

Again, fine, please argue that Pochetinno is the same risk/reward as de Boer. I don't think you'll find many agreeing with you. I most certainly see much higher reward and much lower risk with FdB.

How you can even start comparing him to LvG and Carlo Ancelotti is a mystery to me. Seriously, based on the way you argued against Pochettino compared to Sherwood I wouldn't have been surprised at all if you had argued that going for FdB over Benitez would be ridiculous.

Ah here, hang on. I was only using the phrase "CA/LvG/FdB" as shorthand for that level of coach. CA is in a job and was never seriously going to be free for Spurs (unless by some freak LvG went to Utd and CA got sacked & fancied a "project" in London).

The other question is interesting tho: LvG v. FdB. I think that's an interesting debate and, honest to GHod, I might go for FdB, as I said, based on age and Louis' loopy rep. I am NOT sayng LvG = FdB. I'm saying, in 2014, for Spurs, right now...I think I'd take a punt on dB.

I suppose my question about FdB to you partly boils down to (separate from the Sherwood/Pochettino discussion): What makes him a galactico? I see nothing in your post to support this, yet this is kinda what your argument seems to boil down to. Experience, youth, transfers, style, it's all a bit much of a muchness and really nothing there that sets FdB apart. Even success you agree, nothing magical. Yet there's this claim that he's a galactico, a #1 pick to 100% believe in, up there with Ancelotti and LvG. I ask again, based on what?

Its that X-factor point. World name. Transfer pulling power. Legendary Ajax bootroom. 112 caps for Holland. An absolute BEAST of a player at his best. You either have that Galactico vibe/CV or you don't. Sherwood and Poch don't. de Boer does.

 

[Rorschach]

Must have been a sweet experience.

Part of the issue with me with FdB is just this though. That's the youth setup at Ajax, that's how they play and to some extent how they've always played. He's been successful there, in a smaller league, with players that he knows and that looks up to him, in a league where you can get away with mistakes - particularly as Ajax generally will have have the best players in the majority of their matches. A system that fits that club like a glove, a system that he didn't have to integrate as much as he went back to it.

We will be a completely different situation. How will he integrate the football he knows from Ajax and Barca at a club not at all set up like you describe. With players without that experience from a youth team like theirs. In a league where mistakes are punished to a much greater degree and he won't always have the best players on the pitch.

Like you, and many others, I see a lot of potential in FdB. If it succeeds it could truly be glorious. But he doesn't have the experience people like LvG and Benitez has. He doesn't even have the experience from the PL and integrating a system in a new team that Pochettino has. So I also think there's a real risk there.

A risk I would be happy for the club to accept by the way, if he's deemed to be the right candidate.

Good points and in short it won't be easy to transplant the Ajax playing style onto our club. It's not an overnight thing to be sure but it is a step we have to make to develop as a club. AVB was Levy's first real attempt at this IMO and in fairness AVB did have a system of playing, just one that was flawed. On the other hand you can point to other PL teams that have changed style of play reasonably quickly like Everton and even Liverpool, so it is not an insurmountable challenge by any means. We also have a few aces in the hole with our ex-Ajax lads so I guess we are not starting from scratch. It'll be interesting if nothing else.

 

[Seedy Ron]

No, the point is neither of them has any X-factor. None. Zero.

Tim's got plenty of Y factor, as in... (fill rest of joke in yourself).

 

[braineclipse]

(cut some parts we agree on and stuff that I don't see a point in continuing, please feel free to re-state questions or comments if you feel I cut something important)

I've said over and over and over again in these debates that we can't go for a 2nd tier choice and fully invest emtionally, financially and time-wise in the guy. We'd all be pretending. With FdB, one of the brightest young coaches in Europe, we wouldn't be pretending. Just throw the sink at him.

Again, juts claiming that "he's a 1st tier choice" isn't a point in his favour, it's just a statement.

Fine. Argue for Pochetinno's appointment over FdB then. I'll respect that argument, I just won't agree with it.

Why would I do that? When I stated in my post that I think it's close between the two of them...

I have explained so, so, so many times that IMO it isn't a hot/cold Poch v. Sherwood decision. It's about whether we twist to a 2nd tier selection like Poch/give him a contact/give him money/allow him restructure our squad, or stick with Sherwood for 1 year and wait/see what happens. I can't believe you're wilfully turning that into "You think Shweood is better than Poch". That is not and never has been the point.

And I have argued against that in the past. Like I've said, good luck sitting around predicting which managers will be available at points in the future.

I was talking about that specific point, I'm assuming that if you agreed that Pochettino was miles and miles ahead of Sherwood you would have agreed that going for him if none of the galacticos were available would be a better option than keeping Sherwood. Part of your argument before was that there wasn't much between Sherwood and Poch, based on various different points of comparison. I'm discussing one of those points, that doesn't mean that I'm claiming that you're saying that Sherwood is better than Poch.

Either I'm not being clear or you need to re-read that part of my post. I've re-read that part of my post now myself and I honestly cannot see what I said that made you reply with what you did.

Again, fine, please argue that Pochetinno is the same risk/reward as de Boer. I don't think you'll find many agreeing with you. I most certainly see much higher reward and much lower risk with FdB.

That's pretty much what I'm doing. Just like I did with a poster previously that thought de Boer was a big risk.

Ah here, hang on. I was only using the phrase "CA/LvG/FdB" as shorthand for that level of coach. CA is in a job and was never seriously going to be free for Spurs (unless by some freak LvG went to Utd and CA got sacked & fancied a "project" in London).

The other question is interesting tho: LvG v. FdB. I think that's an interesting debate and, honest to GHod, I might go for FdB, as I said, based on age and Louis' loopy rep. I am NOT sayng LvG = FdB. I'm saying, in 2014, for Spurs, right now...I think I'd take a punt on dB.

I have no problems with the shorthand, but you're obviously still categorizing FdB up there with LvG as options for Spurs at this point, up there with the galacticos. Which is what I'm looking for a reason for.

Its that X-factor point. World name. Transfer pulling power. Legendary Ajax bootroom. 112 caps for Holland. An absolute BEAST of a player at his best. You either have that Galactico vibe/CV or you don't. Sherwood and Poch don't. de Boer does.

So that's what it boils down to? He's Frank de Boer, whereas Pochettino is just Pochettino...

Is this X-factor, name, pulling power, legendary status, caps, beast of a player important predictive factors when trying to predict which managers will be successful? I think it would have to be for your argument to hold and I really don't think it is.

Sure, there have been many successful managers with that X-factor going into their careers. But I would say that for every one of those there are non-X-factor managers that succeed too. Where was the X-factor you mention with Mourinho, Klopp, Wenger, Ferguson and so on? And similarly you have X-factor managers that fail, I'm sure you'd agree.

Is this where we disagree? Are you saying that there is a predictive factor in looking at a manager's X-factor over and beyond their managerial credentials? Or is there something special about de Boer?

 

[braineclipse]

Good points and in short it won't be easy to transplant the Ajax playing style onto our club. It's not an overnight thing to be sure but it is a step we have to make to develop as a club. AVB was Levy's first real attempt at this IMO and in fairness AVB did have a system of playing, just one that was flawed. On the other hand you can point to other PL teams that have changed style of play reasonably quickly like Everton and even Liverpool, so it is not an insurmountable challenge by any means. We also have a few aces in the hole with our ex-Ajax lads so I guess we are not starting from scratch. It'll be interesting if nothing else.

That it would be, and entertaining, and I would be very optimistic!

 

[chancer]

Is this X-factor, name, pulling power, legendary status, caps, beast of a player important predictive factors when trying to predict which managers will be successful? I think it would have to be for your argument to hold and I really don't think it is.

Is this where we disagree? Are you saying that there is a predictive factor in looking at a manager's X-factor over and beyond their managerial credentials? Or is there something special about de Boer?

X-Factor is born of other factors. It's the sum of the parts, if it's there at all.

FdB
- Current Head Coach of Ajax
- 500 games Barca/Ajax as player (6 league titles)
- 112 Holland caps
- 3 years Ajax youth coach
- 2 years Holland asst./RU WC 2010
- 4 years Ajax manager
- 4 titles won

Sherwood
- Current Head Coach of Spurs
- 500 games Blackburn/Spurs/Others (1 league title)
- 3 England caps
- 5 years Spurs development coach
- 1/2 a season as head coach in PL
- Boardroom experience on xfer panel
- No trophies, no relegations, no failures

Poch
- Current Head Coach of Southampton
- 500 games for Newells/Espanyol/PSG (1 Argentine league title)
- 20 Argentina caps
- 2.5 years Espanyol head coach
- 1.5 years Southampton head coach
- No trophies, no relegations, no pure failures, but sacked once


> If you argue Pochetinno is a better coach than Sherwood, I might end up agreeing with you.

> If you argue Pochetinno is a better choice as Spurs head coach in Summer 2014 ahead of Sherwood to complete his last 12 months, I will vehemently disagree with you.

> If you argue either Sherwood or Pochetinno is a better choice as Spurs head coach in Summer 2014 than FdB, I will disagree with you. Not strongly though, because I want us to produce our own players and coaches, not always poach them from elsewhere.

 

[braineclipse]

My questions really remain unanswered.

Do you think those X-factor points you bring up are predictive of the success of a manager? And if so, based on what?

 

[Cochise]

I'm sure I read somewhere today that FDB wants to remodel the club from the first 11 down to the youngest youth team so that we have a stream of ready made players who know our system. This is pretty much what Wenger did all those years ago for the gooners and IIRC AVB made all our youth teams change to a 433 in 2012 (I read it here a long time ago).

 

[milo]

I'm sure I read somewhere today that FDB wants to remodel the club from the first 11 down to the youngest youth team so that we have a stream of ready made players who know our system. This is pretty much what Wenger did all those years ago for the gooners and IIRC AVB made all our youth teams change to a 433 in 2012 (I read it here a long time ago).

Yeah, the Standard ran a story saying that today

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fra...hes-made-boss-at-white-hart-lane-9305342.html

 

[glorygloryeze]

Feel that FDB is a bigger risk than Poch tbh, but the potential rewards for taking such a risk (and it is a big risk imo) may be huge.

It's a shame that LVG seems out of the question now...

 

[Gutter Boy]

The problem with getting someone like FDB in is that, due to his links to the club, you just know if he is even mildly successful in his first couple of seasons here Barca will come knocking sharpish.

That said, i still want him in above all other candidates rumoured at the moment.

Then we are in a better position than we are now, we get the compo money, and we choose the best coach available next summer from a position of strength.

Better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all... and all that.

The key of the project and the DoF is that the coach actually is disposable. It's how Swansea continued growing despite losing Martinez and Rodgers, and Southampton from Adkins to Poch.

 

[chancer]

My questions really remain unanswered.

Do you think those X-factor points you bring up are predictive of the success of a manager? And if so, based on what?

Nothing is predictive of the success of a manager. Neither an immaculate CV at one end of the scale, nor some intangible notion of an x-factor at the other.

You throw it all into the meat grinder and try to judge whether the sausages at the other end will be tasty. When I throw de Boer's meat into my grinder, it turns out nice sausages. Sherwood's meat throws out under-seasoned sausages that could yet turn out to be tasty. Pochetinno's meat turns out nice sausages, but I'm just not in the mood for sausages right now.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Nothing is predictive of the success of a manager. Neither an immaculate CV at one end of the scale, nor some intangible notion of an x-factor at the other.

You throw it all into the meat grinder and try to judge whether the sausages at the other end will be tasty. When I throw de Boer's meat into my grinder, it turns out nice sausages. Sherwood's meat throws out under-seasoned sausages that could yet turn out to be tasty. Pochetinno's meat turns out nice sausages, but I'm just not in the mood for sausages right now.

 

[braineclipse]

Nothing is predictive of the success of a manager. Neither an immaculate CV at one end of the scale, nor some intangible notion of an x-factor at the other.

You throw it all into the meat grinder and try to judge whether the sausages at the other end will be tasty. When I throw de Boer's meat into my grinder, it turns out nice sausages. Sherwood's meat throws out under-seasoned sausages that could yet turn out to be tasty. Pochetinno's meat turns out nice sausages, but I'm just not in the mood for sausages right now.

I wasn't using predictive as in "knowing for sure". More like an indication of success if you prefer. Like you've clearly argued that other things are.

 

[chancer]

I wasn't using predictive as in "knowing for sure". More like an indication of success if you prefer. Like you've clearly argued that other things are.

The only things I've ever argued are predictive - in the loser definition - are a combination of CV, experience and intangibles/x-factor. Are you telling me that's unreasonable? Because I have no idea how else you judge a potential hire otherwise. Throw the 7 or 8 or 10 variables out there, weight them all, and try to come up with the best answer you can.

And yes, I would say x-factor is one of those 7 or 8 or 10 variables that are predictive.

For example, every time a former player takes over as a coach at "his" old club x-factor is a factor, including when Poch took over at Espanyol: his appointment would not have happened had the board not factored in the x-factor between him, the club and the fans. Your argument is that Poch did well at Espanyol - and I don't disagree necessarily - but if that's true it must demonstrate that the x-factor was, after all, predictive.

 

[diego_maradona]

Chancer you said
> If you argue Pochetinno is a better choice as Spurs head coach in Summer 2014 ahead of Sherwood to complete his last 12 months, I will vehemently disagree with you.

You also said Sherwood has a better understanding of the squad and 6 months on Poch or any new manager. But isn't that somewhat short term to think he knows more about the squad now, and therefore is in a better position to take us forward next season. Whilst it might be true that it may take take the new man 6 months or more to learn more about his squad (let's call it another season of transition) we should be looking at this more long term.

If you argue Pochettino is a better coach than Sherwood and the potential rewards are greater long term, then it should surely be a no brainer?