Next Manager?

[Hashegotthesackyet?]

It’s the same old same old. ..We’ve had talented players walk through this club. We have a proven Manager who’s struggling. We’ve had Poch who was the most promising and progressive Manager I can remember at our club. We’ve got top draw players by way of Son and Kane.. I mention them due to their overall goal contribution but we have a nucleus of decent players. But we always have too many brick or average players across the squad. When injuries or suspensions go against us, we’re fkd. Imo the manager is irrelevant, overall, the fundamentals to our club will always dictate us.. ie saving a few quid here and there, missing out on THAT key player/players that mk each the difference.

 

[Baleforce]

I’m lost?

I’m suggesting that it’s things he did before he joined us that had many supporters keeping the knives within arms reach.

We’ve got the “manager out” thread going seemingly based on 3 defeats.

 

[AdamB]

It was always going to be this way. I said it when things were good. The minute results turned, Jose was screwed because he's a divisive personality at the best of times and his style of football is pretty poor. There was also no goodwill built up.

Maybe it's unfair but he is where he is in the eyes of the supporters through circumstances all of his own making.

I dont think its unfair, precisely because of what you said - lack of goodwill. A results manager who isnt getting results has nothing. Moreover, Jose makes you ashamed at times to be a Spurs fan and embarrassed by the way he acts and the team plays. Most of us now watch Spurs out of duty rather than anything else

 

[Bishop]

It does feel like everyone has gone early here, it’s a handful of bad performances.

We’ve dropped points in other games too, but the shockers have been last night, 46 mins against the dippers and Leicester and 20 against West Ham.

There were some really good performances and results after West Ham too.

I don’t feel the narrative matches the numbers at the minute.

Even when we were winning the football was not entertaining to the vast majority. They accepted it due to the results maybe even some pretended to themselves they enjoyed it. You can always find a grain of joy somewhere in a win no matter how unenjoyable that win might have been.

I'm sure you recall though the complaints and the criticisms even at the time when we were top of the league. The doubts, the conversations about overperforming XG, the Kane / Son axis being unsustainable, the overall cautiousness and the painful sitting back? I'm sure you do because you were one of those arguing the opposite and to be fair you still are.

Well now the results have stopped going our way all those existing complaints are coming to fore along with new criticisms. You can't really be surprised that the fan base would turn when it was already somewhat unhappy even with the wins.

It has been said many times on this forum and elsewhere the Jose's approach would be accepted as long as we were winning but any drop would bring in the complaints because we are not enjoying what we see.

Now I do think the discussion is more nuanced than simply Jose is brick and he needs to go but at the same time he needed to understand the club and fans he was taking on. He's been far too negative and has very much brought this backlash upon himself.

I've been a fan from outside of his work over the years. I didn't want Poch to get the sack despite understanding why it happened. So when Jose for the job I was wary I wasn't sure which approach he would take. But I'm open minded I love the varying tactical approach of football and despite having my own preference I don't believe any one style is right over the other. Yet I have to say I'm convinced now that isnt the right man for the job. He's made some very basic errors, which I find difficult to understand and justify and he appears to be incapable of changing course and righting the ship.

The next three games are massive and maybe they can be the defining games of his reign because right now it has to be said, the fans no longer believe in him.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I’m suggesting that it’s things he did before he joined us that had many supporters keeping the knives within arms reach.

We’ve got the “manager out” thread going seemingly based on 3 defeats.

Ah right.

Yeah I think that is certainly a big part of it. Jose comes with baggage and a reputation. And it’s a reputation he’s earned to be fair. Some people don’t like him because of how he carries on. Some people don’t like his brand of football. Some people don’t see him as a long term option so the minute he’s not getting results, they wonder what the point of Jose is.

All of those factors combine to mean that he’s probably given less leeway than someone like Poch got.

 

[Daisuk]

Yes he has and he will solve more if he is given time, sadly there are a lot of fans who are not willing to give him that time, including some who had made their minds up before his first game.

I just think a lot of fans, myself included, are looking for straws to clutch to, signs of improvement, things going the right way. They did for a while, despite us largely playing boring football - then you have a hope for it to kick on and us starting to play more like a team - but it hasn't really happened. Instead we're going backwards again. Kane is out, but the manager is refusing to play the other striker in the squad. He's somehow managed to ostracise a player very capable of scoring and creating goals - almost childishly leaving him out of games he should be featuring in. We keep seeing the same patterns in games, the same mistakes from players, a lack of creativity and strategy - we're standing still going forward and look disjointed defending.

I think people are just questioning whether he's got what it takes to turn it around. Because there's no denying we're in a bad spell - cemented by an absolute horror show of a display vs Brighton.

We'll see though - he will get more time, and the fact that there are no crowds now are definitely benefiting him. But what is he going to do? How's he working to change it up? What will it take? There just aren't many glimmers of hope at the moment, which I guess is why a lot of fans are turning on him.

Having said all that - we know very little of what goes on behind closed doors. It could be all rosy and all the players love him and are just tired or something - but judging from what we've seen on the pitch lately - something smells, and it needs to be dealt with.

 

[AdamB]

But we always have too many brick or average players across the squad. When injuries or suspensions go against us, we’re fkd

If you have a system and way of playing, then players can slot in and out and results not suffer. Our only tactics are sit back, hope that their forwards don't beat our defenders and score, and punt it long to Kane in the hope that him and Son can conjure something up. That's not a system

 

[DeanoAustin]

I dont think its unfair, precisely because of what you said - lack of goodwill. A results manager who isnt getting results has nothing. Moreover, Jose makes you ashamed at times to be a Spurs fan and embarrassed by the way he acts and the team plays. Most of us now watch Spurs out of duty rather than anything else

You could make the argument it’s unfair because Poch, in his first full season, was arguably doing worse than Jose is now. I understand it’s not like for like as Jose had much of last season. Point being, if you’re making an argument for Jose, which is a legitimate position to take, you’d say based purely on results, he’s being judged more harshly than another manager is being judged.

Personally, I want rid of him but I can see why people might say I’m being knee jerk or harsh. I just can’t, for the life of me, see how things get better or more enjoyable and keeping him will just cause more destruction and end badly anyway.

 

[AdamB]

You could make the argument it’s unfair because Poch, in his first full season, was arguably doing worse than Jose is now. I understand it’s not like for like as Jose had much of last season. Point being, if you’re making an argument for Jose, which is a legitimate position to take, you’d say based purely on results, he’s being judged more harshly than another manager is being judged.

Personally, I want rid of him but I can see why people might say I’m being knee jerk or harsh. I just can’t, for the life of me, see how things get better or more enjoyable and keeping him will just cause more destruction and end badly anyway.

I'm with you. THe last bit sums it up well - the football won't improve and its just a matter of time before it all blows up. Its just happening quicker than we al expected

 

[Modric THFC]

You could make the argument it’s unfair because Poch, in his first full season, was arguably doing worse than Jose is now

Poch's 20th League game was the 5-3 win against Chelsea
Poch had more points after 20 games than Mourinho does now.
And that was after going through a terrible run which led to him getting rid of the bmob squad out of the team.

 

[Baleforce]

Even when we were winning the football was not entertaining to the vast majority. They accepted it due to the results maybe even some pretended to themselves they enjoyed it. You can always find a grain of joy somewhere in a win no matter how unenjoyable that win might have been.

I'm sure you recall though the complaints and the criticisms even at the time when we were top of the league. The doubts, the conversations about overperforming XG, the Kane / Son axis being unsustainable, the overall cautiousness and the painful sitting back? I'm sure you do because you were one of those arguing the opposite and to be fair you still are.

Well now the results have stopped going our way all those existing complaints are coming to fore along with new criticisms. You can't really be surprised that the fan base would turn when it was already somewhat unhappy even with the wins.

It has been said many times on this forum and elsewhere the Jose's approach would be accepted as long as we were winning but any drop would bring in the complaints because we are not enjoying what we see.

Now I do think the discussion is more nuanced than simply Jose is brick and he needs to go but at the same time he needed to understand the club and fans he was taking on. He's been far too negative and has very much brought this backlash upon himself.

I've been a fan from outside of his work over the years. I didn't want Poch to get the sack despite understanding why it happened. So when Jose for the job I was wary I wasn't sure which approach he would take. But I'm open minded I love the varying tactical approach of football and despite having my own preference I don't believe any one style is right over the other. Yet I have to say I'm convinced now that isnt the right man for the job. He's made some very basic errors, which I find difficult to understand and justify and he appears to be incapable of changing course and righting the ship.

The next three games are massive and maybe they can be the defining games of his reign because right now it has to be said, the fans no longer believe in him.

Is it not logical then that the current form isn't sustainable either as there are so many underperforming/unavailable players, is equal balance being given to what could improve in future as there was to the negatives in the happier times?

I'm not surprised it has turned no, I think a large part of the fanbase was unhappy before the wins, before a single ball had been kicked under his instruction, which is my wider point.

I think anyone who does understand the club and fans might concede that maybe our "style/attitude/history" has held us back for some time and that more pragmatism would improve our chances of actually wining the league.

I think he's made errors too, but I think he's dealing with something that many others have previously failed to overcome, I still believe in him, although I'm no longer sure he'll get the time to succeed here.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Poch's 20th League game was the 5-3 win against Chelsea
Poch had more points after 20 games than Mourinho does now.
And that was after going through a terrible run which led to him getting rid of the bmob squad out of the team.

Yep
Who won the league that year?

 

[parklane1]

Yep
Who won the league that year?

And he only had one point more after 20 games then Jose has. Big deal though.

 

[billyiddo]

You could make the argument it’s unfair because Poch, in his first full season, was arguably doing worse than Jose is now. I

In what sense out of interest?

 

[Robspur12]

Sign of the times i guess ( sad to say), i had a look at the Poch thread earlier and there were some who wanted a change to Poch when the first season was not going well. Fans are quick to judge managers and it seems to get worse/quicker then it ever has been.

Jose is not a team building type manager like Poch. It goes with the territory of hiring him, he is a quick fix. Either it works quickly or it doesn’t.

 

[DeanoAustin]

In what sense out of interest?

I had assumed Jose had more points or was higher in the league but I think @Modric THFC has corrected me on that.

However, it was close enough. Results wise, Jose is doing a fairly similar job to Poch in his first season. It never crossed my mind that Poch should be fired back then. I can’t see any way Jose is turning this around. Therein lies an apparent inconsistency in my thinking but I’m still certain I’ll be proved right in a few months.

 

[Robspur12]

Yep
Who won the league that year?

That’s not really the point of the post. Chelsea are serial winners with or without Jose. So don’t compare what Jose did at Chelsea with what he is likely to do at Spurs. It is fair to compare his achievements at Spurs against other Spurs managers.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Jose is not a team building type manager like Poch. It goes with the territory of hiring him, he is a quick fix. Either it works quickly or it doesn’t.

Is he really a quick fix...
It took him a full season at Chelsea second time and also at Madrid I believe
Chelsea first time had been winning things and invested a lot but hadn’t got the big one
At inter they won the league the year before he joined
At real it was his second season he won the title
Second time at Chelsea he finished 3rd I think and win it second season
At united he took over the team that had won the FA duo and in his first season he won the UEFA and league cups and came second in his next season before it all went wrong

I guess like everything in football it’s perceptions and opinions

 

[Bedfordspurs]

That’s not really the point of the post. Chelsea are serial winners with or without Jose. So don’t compare what Jose did at Chelsea with what he is likely to do at Spurs. It is fair to compare his achievements at Spurs against other Spurs managers.

Cup final in his first season here
And Chelsea were not serial winners of what fans now call the big trophies. They hadn’t won the league before he joined

 

[billyiddo]

I had assumed Jose had more points or was higher in the league but I think @Modric THFC has corrected me on that.

However, it was close enough. Results wise, Jose is doing a fairly similar job to Poch in his first season. It never crossed my mind that Poch should be fired back then. I can’t see any way Jose is turning this around. Therein lies an apparent inconsistency in my thinking but I’m still certain I’ll be proved right in a few months.

I guess the obvious difference would be that Mourinho is 46 league games in to his time with us atm where Poch at that point was only 20 games in?