Nabil Bentaleb

[SpurMeUp]

I don't get the mood in this thread, Bentaleb is a success for Spurs. He wasn't getting regular games. Last season he started poorly, then got injured and didn't do well on his return either. He needed (and demanded) regular games. Something Poch couldn't guarantee - rightly so.

Club gets 17m for a squad player, and Bentleb gets regular games so he can develop again. Personally, I liked him, saw he would start scoring (how many shots just wide did he have for us?). But I think he's a player who will ultimately not deliver as much as he promises. He'll start well, go off the boil and move clubs a number of times imo. Still very talented and only 22.

 

[Yoof]

I don't get the mood in this thread, Bentaleb is a success for Spurs. He wasn't getting regular games. Last season he started poorly, then got injured and didn't do well on his return either. He needed (and demanded) regular games. Something Poch couldn't guarantee - rightly so.

Club gets 17m for a squad player, and Bentleb gets regular games so he can develop again. Personally, I liked him, saw he would start scoring (how many shots just wide did he have for us?). But I think he's a player who will ultimately not deliver as much as he promises. He'll start well, go off the boil and move clubs a number of times imo. Still very talented and only 22.

Knowing that Bentaleb's fee indirectly went half way to funding the signing of Sissoko is a tough pill for me to swallow

Also, your final sentence.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Knowing that Bentaleb's fee indirectly went half way to funding the signing of Sissoko is a tough pill for me to swallow

Also, your final sentence.

Yes its best not to compare the two!

But they aren't really comparable, totally different players. We needed someone who could run at (or into!) other teams. When Dembele was out, it was clear we missed someone who could disrupt, suck defenders in and leave the opposition out of shape. Lamela, Eriksen are not the biggest either so Sissoko's physical impact was something poch wanted. While it is questionable whether Sissoko will deliver, Bentaleb was certainly not that player. You might argue we miss some Carrickesque passing from deep, but Tony A tends to play that role, and Dier and Wanyama are improving their passing game and can carry the ball forwards.

Ultimately he was surplus, and we have to make space to let fresh youth players through and upgrade the team. So good luck to Bentaleb, it was the right move.

 

[braineclipse]

Yes its best not to compare the two!

But they aren't really comparable totally different players. We needed someone who could run at (or into!) other teams. When Dembele was out, it was clear we missed someone who could disrupt, suck defenders in and leave the opposition out of shape. Lamela, Eriksen are not the biggest either so Sissoko's physical impact was something poch wanted. While it is questionable whether Sissoko will deliver, Bentaleb was certainly not that player. You might argue we miss some Carrickesque passing from deep, but Tony A tends to play that role, and Dier and Wanyama are improving their passing game and can carry the ball forwards.

Ultimately he was surplus, and we have to make space to let fresh youth players through and upgrade the team. So good luck to Bentaleb, it was the right move.

I think off the pitch differences between him and Pochettino became insurmountable and he dropped out of Pochettino's plans because of it. That in a way made him surplus I suppose you could say, but I don't think it had anything to do with a lack of ability or potential or even him not being a good fit for our style of play.

Dembele and Sissoko are just as different. Sissoko has done nothing to make me think his presence in the team lessens the absence of Dembele at all.

 

[afsoc4life]

Interesting comment by a poster here on his age. I wish Janssen who is 22 would at least replicate his success.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think off the pitch differences between him and Pochettino became insurmountable and he dropped out of Pochettino's plans because of it. That in a way made him surplus I suppose you could say, but I don't think it had anything to do with a lack of ability or potential or even him not being a good fit for our style of play.

Dembele and Sissoko are just as different. Sissoko has done nothing to make me think his presence in the team lessens the absence of Dembele at all.

On last season's showing from Bentaleb would you have started him this season over Wanyama or Dier? Or had him fight for his place? Really that is all it came down imo.

Dembele and Sissoko are different, but both can carry the ball forwards, and are huge, a handful for defenders once playing well and confident.

 

[braineclipse]

On last season's showing from Bentaleb would you have started him this season over Wanyama or Dier? Or had him fight for his place? Really that is all it came down imo.

Dembele and Sissoko are different, but both can carry the ball forwards, and are huge, a handful for defenders once playing well and confident.

Last season he barely got a look in. I really don't think it's a fair assessment of his qualities to look at last season in isolation.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Last season he barely got a look in. I really don't think it's a fair assessment of his qualities to look at last season in isolation.

So you would have started Bentaleb over Dier and/or Wanyama?

 

[Yoof]

So you would have started Bentaleb over Dier and/or Wanyama?

He shouldn't be seen as a DM, he's suited to playing alongside/ahead of one which gives him more freedom to do the things he's good at. With Dembele breaking down every other week it's not farfetched to suggest Bentaleb could've established himself in the side.

 

[SpurMeUp]

He shouldn't be seen as a DM, he's suited to playing alongside/ahead of one which gives him more freedom to do the things he's good at. With Dembele breaking down every other week it's not farfetched to suggest Bentaleb could've established himself in the side.

Dembele, Dier and Wanyama were ahead of him essentially. And your point only shows Bentaleb's limitations. He couldn't fill in for Dembele effectively. He could play in the deeper role using his passing skills, and getting forward when the chance comes, but his defensive game wasn't half as good as Dier or Wanyama. So all 3 were rightly ahead of him.

Sometimes when a player isn't quite good enough, we blame the position. Truth is he's a young player who's not the finished article. He wasn't going to get the long run of games he needed with us. Good luck to him.

 

[braineclipse]

Dembele, Dier and Wanyama were ahead of him essentially. And your point only shows Bentaleb's limitations. He couldn't fill in for Dembele effectively. He could play in the deeper role using his passing skills, and getting forward when the chance comes, but his defensive game wasn't half as good as Dier or Wanyama. So all 3 were rightly ahead of him.

Sometimes when a player isn't quite good enough, we blame the position. Truth is he's a young player who's not the finished article. He wasn't going to get the long run of games he needed with us. Good luck to him.

That is one interpretation of events. Like I said another one is that there was an off the pitch disagreement between him and Pochettino last season. That at least contributed to his lack of game time last season and him falling down the pecking order.

We still got 5th with him and Mason as our main deep central midfield partnership in Pochettino's first season. With a lot of other positions in the team being weaker than they are now. If it is true that there was a falling out between him and Pochettino we will never quite know how much and how well/poorly he would have played last season. But surely you must see that there's at least a possibility of this being true.

 

[Yoof]

Dembele, Dier and Wanyama were ahead of him essentially. And your point only shows Bentaleb's limitations. He couldn't fill in for Dembele effectively. He could play in the deeper role using his passing skills, and getting forward when the chance comes, but his defensive game wasn't half as good as Dier or Wanyama. So all 3 were rightly ahead of him.

How does it show his limitations? It shows the kind of player he is. Dier and Wanyama aren't half as good offensively as Bentaleb so are we to call them limited? A 19 year-old Bentaleb played an entire season ahead of Dembele, if Poch could improve a 28 year-old Dembele to the point he did last season then what is there to suggest he couldn't have done the same with Nabil? Dembele is beginning to show he cannot be relied upon, he's gotten himself injured again on international duty and all we're left with at CM are two defensive players in Dier and Wanyama, not a pairing I'm particularly excited about seeing especially given we're struggling enough for goals as it is.

 

[SpurMeUp]

That is one interpretation of events. Like I said another one is that there was an off the pitch disagreement between him and Pochettino last season. That at least contributed to his lack of game time last season and him falling down the pecking order.

We still got 5th with him and Mason as our main deep central midfield partnership in Pochettino's first season. With a lot of other positions in the team being weaker than they are now. If it is true that there was a falling out between him and Pochettino we will never quite know how much and how well/poorly he would have played last season. But surely you must see that there's at least a possibility of this being true.

So knowing Pochettino's methods, and his sides being based on merit, not reputation, do you think there is any other reason for Bentaleb being unhappy than him simply not playing? Bentaleb started the season so poorly last year, then didn't get back into his stride when fit. On merit he wasn't in the team. At his age, he needs regular games. The rest comes from these two facts: Bentaleb needed regular games, on merit alone he didn't deserve to walk into the side above others in the squad.

 

[SpurMeUp]

How does it show his limitations? It shows the kind of player he is. Dier and Wanyama aren't half as good offensively as Bentaleb so are we to call them limited? A 19 year-old Bentaleb played an entire season ahead of Dembele, if Poch could improve a 28 year-old Dembele to the point he did last season then what is there to suggest he couldn't have done the same with Nabil? Dembele is beginning to show he cannot be relied upon, he's gotten himself injured again on international duty and all we're left with at CM are two defensive players in Dier and Wanyama, not a pairing I'm particularly excited about seeing especially given we're struggling enough for goals as it is.

If you played say Wanyama with Bentaleb in Dembele's role we'd lack attacking intent. All the opposition do is get tight to Bentaleb and they'd close down our midfield offence.

Dier and Wanyama play their role better, both have been limited in an attacking sense, but are doing more. Wanyama scored on his debut for us, and we know Dier is capable in the final third if not polished (recall his time playing right back when he got forward well). Wanyama is increasingly an all round midfielder, he can turn people, carry the ball, and lets hope score more.

Your third point is also key, Poch could have improved Nabil. I agree. But if a player is saying 'you have to play me'. Thinks he knows best, then that undermines the coach-player relationship. If we didn't have other players ahead of him, I am sure Bentaleb would have come on under Poch. Ultimately he just needed games - so he was right to insist on that too. No one was really at fault.

Would you be excited by Wanyama and Bentaleb? While exiting to see how they did, I don't think Beltaleb had the ability to take on that role, without players around him to open up space for him to play. Dembele doesn't need that. And that is why we bought Sissoko, potentially, Sissoko can make more space for others. Bentaleb + Sissoko would be more interesting, but would need a DM behind them.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I thought he was a very good left back.

 

[Yoof]

If you played say Wanyama with Bentaleb in Dembele's role we'd lack attacking intent. All the opposition do is get tight to Bentaleb and they'd close down our midfield offence.

Dier and Wanyama play their role better, both have been limited in an attacking sense, but are doing more. Wanyama scored on his debut for us, and we know Dier is capable in the final third if not polished (recall his time playing right back when he got forward well). Wanyama is increasingly an all round midfielder, he can turn people, carry the ball, and lets hope score more.

Your third point is also key, Poch could have improved Nabil. I agree. But if a player is saying 'you have to play me'. Thinks he knows best, then that undermines the coach-player relationship. If we didn't have other players ahead of him, I am sure Bentaleb would have come on under Poch. Ultimately he just needed games - so he was right to insist on that too. No one was really at fault.

Would you be excited by Wanyama and Bentaleb? While exiting to see how they did, I don't think Beltaleb had the ability to take on that role, without players around him to open up space for him to play. Dembele doesn't need that. And that is why we bought Sissoko, potentially, Sissoko can make more space for others. Bentaleb + Sissoko would be more interesting, but would need a DM behind them.

My opinion of Dembele won't be a popular one but I think he's blunting us going forward. Defensively and in possession he is excellent, very few are better but him in possession is both a blessing and a curse. He carries the ball brilliantly which is great when we're under pressure and we need someone to keep hold of the thing as too many of our players fritter it away cheaply but he just simply doesn't move the ball quickly enough or directly enough when we really need to move the opposition around. How many times does he pass the ball through the midfield line straight into our attacking players? Bentaleb's scored 5 in his last 5 games, the last time Dembele managed five in an entire season was six years ago so I'm not sure about him having more attacking intent. Bentaleb's showing at Schalke that he just needed the shackles taken off, his main flaw(which can still be worked on given he's only 21) is he gets caught defensively and loses concentration so why play him as the deepest midfielder where those flaws are more likely to be exposed? I think he had a lot to offer that we don't currently have but for whatever reason(I don't think any of us know for sure) Poch decided to get rid.

I think we have a problem in central midfield as whilst they're all very strong defensively, none of Wanyama/Dier/Dembele are creative or aggressive enough offensively, I'd still play Dembele in tough away games like last Sunday but otherwise given the lack of alternatives I'd go back to the 4141 with Dier or Wanyama as the single holder and then Lamela/Eriksen/Alli/Son ahead of them, maybe Winks can be considered an option but until Poch shows he trusts him I'll ignore him for now.

 

[braineclipse]

So knowing Pochettino's methods, and his sides being based on merit, not reputation, do you think there is any other reason for Bentaleb being unhappy than him simply not playing? Bentaleb started the season so poorly last year, then didn't get back into his stride when fit. On merit he wasn't in the team. At his age, he needs regular games. The rest comes from these two facts: Bentaleb needed regular games, on merit alone he didn't deserve to walk into the side above others in the squad.

Merit, not reputation got Bentaleb into the side. But Pochettino has also shown a ruthless side when players do not confirm to his standards off the pitch. I don't think you can discount this at least being a factor.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

The guy was too weak on the ball and had ambitions beyond his abilities when it came to possession. Towards the end with us, he couldn't make a five yard pass.

 

[SpurMeUp]

My opinion of Dembele won't be a popular one but I think he's blunting us going forward. Defensively and in possession he is excellent, very few are better but him in possession is both a blessing and a curse. He carries the ball brilliantly which is great when we're under pressure and we need someone to keep hold of the thing as too many of our players fritter it away cheaply but he just simply doesn't move the ball quickly enough or directly enough when we really need to move the opposition around. How many times does he pass the ball through the midfield line straight into our attacking players? Bentaleb's scored 5 in his last 5 games, the last time Dembele managed five in an entire season was six years ago so I'm not sure about him having more attacking intent. Bentaleb's showing at Schalke that he just needed the shackles taken off, his main flaw(which can still be worked on given he's only 21) is he gets caught defensively and loses concentration so why play him as the deepest midfielder where those flaws are more likely to be exposed? I think he had a lot to offer that we don't currently have but for whatever reason(I don't think any of us know for sure) Poch decided to get rid.

I think we have a problem in central midfield as whilst they're all very strong defensively, none of Wanyama/Dier/Dembele are creative or aggressive enough offensively, I'd still play Dembele in tough away games like last Sunday but otherwise given the lack of alternatives I'd go back to the 4141 with Dier or Wanyama as the single holder and then Lamela/Eriksen/Alli/Son ahead of them, maybe Winks can be considered an option but until Poch shows he trusts him I'll ignore him for now.

I just don't think Bentaleb would have scored as freely for us. Different side, league etc. The guy needed a change. He didn't score for us at all did he? Ironically, Dembele and Bentaleb had the potential of a good pair. But if you stop reacting to his current form, on ballance, Bentaleb wasn't ahead of the others in the side now. Yes we need a goal scoring midfielder, but had we kept Bentaleb, do you honestly think he would have been for us?

 

[Yoof]

I just don't think Bentaleb would have scored as freely for us. Different side, league etc. The guy needed a change. He didn't score for us at all did he? Ironically, Dembele and Bentaleb had the potential of a good pair. But if you stop reacting to his current form, on ballance, Bentaleb wasn't ahead of the others in the side now. Yes we need a goal scoring midfielder, but had we kept Bentaleb, do you honestly think he would have been for us?

Without checking, probably 95% of his games for us were alongside Mason, neither are naturally defensive players but Bentaleb took up the role of the more defensive of the two. With Wanyama and Dier here he wouldn't be playing so deep, he wouldn't have as much defensive responsibility and he'd have more license to break forward and play aggressive passes so yes, I don't see why he couldn't have been that player here. It's not like the Bundesliga is a pushover, as we saw against Leverkusen. I think rather than me reacting to his current form, I'd say far more reacted to an even smaller sample size of games last season. How many games did he actually start? 4? And on the basis of those games he's been written off as not good enough whilst the previous 18 months go largely ignored.

Bentaleb wasn't ahead of others, you're right, but the team isn't set in stone. Son wasn't first choice, he is now. Dier started practically every game but once Toby comes back he may well find himself on the bench. Dembele can't stay fit for more than two weeks so there would've been opportunities. Maybe he didn't want to wait around for his chance but I think we've been way too hasty in agreeing to a permanent transfer for him and for what is a relatively paltry fee compared to some of the money us and other clubs have dished out on other players.