Moussa Sissoko

[Gilzeantoscore]

He really isn't the worst player of all 22 in terms of ability, that is a huge stretch. He may be the worst in our team in terms of ability, or more pertinently technique (although I'm not even completely sure of that) but he would be a guaranteed starter for every team outside of the top 6. The problem I have here is that even though he may have the worst technique of the entire first team, IMO there has only been one game where he has been the worst performer for us (Leicester away) yet he is the one who tends to be called out no matter what. I thought there were at least 4 players who Sissoko performed better than at the weekend, yet some still feel that Sissoko being in the team was the biggest reason for us failing to win.

An example of what I think is clearly unconscious bias is the different reactions to Sanchez's own goal and Sissoko's miss.... Sanchez is considered 'unlucky' for his part in the own goal, whereas Sissoko's miss was considered to be abject faiure by some. If you look at it objectively Sanchez had far more time to react to the ball across goal than Sissoko did from Davies' mibrick shot. Surely if Sanchez was unlucky then Sissoko was also unlucky? Or conversely both of them failed abysmally and were equally culpable in us dropping two points?

No, no, and no! That was Sanchez's first big and costly mistake, but Sissoko has missed plenty of sitters. Yes, yes and yes, he is often the worst player out of the 22 on the pitch.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

A starter for every team outside the top 6?

Hmmmm I think that is the real stretch.

It's the cult thing happening again!

 

[Lemonade Money]

There does seem to be a bit of a cult on here, amongst some members always criticizing particular players.

 

[braineclipse]

Re the "missed" shot that some are calling Sissoko out on : I cant' help but think that had it been Sissoko instead of Davies who had played in that ball and another of our players had failed to direct it into the goal, the blame would be on Sissoko for the speed/weight/timing rather than it being seen as a sitter gone begging.

When Eriksen missed a chance from a ball coming as hard from closer on his weaker foot he was criticized by many. If I remember correctly he had a bit more of the goal to hit, but it wasn't an easier chance for me. Like with Sissoko there were some who only criticized the finish and some who argued that it wasn't that easy of a chance.

The cross from Davies wasn't perfect, but better than any cross Sissoko or Aurier or most other players in our team managed in that game. Davies also delivered an assist for Kane from a corner.

I really don't think Sissoko is getting targeted particularly on here. He just keeps on not delivering anything close to the standard of other players in the team. I don't think he should be judged on a different standard.

 

[tynesidespur]

No, no, and no! That was Sanchez's first big and costly mistake,

First costly mistake for us?

He was out-muscled by Rondon at Wembley when he had the chance to clear the ball which gave them an early goal and resulted in us dropping 2 points.
He was sent off at Watford which cost us 2 points.
He was booked at Swansea and extremely lucky not to get a 2nd yellow which could've cost us again.
Own goal on Sunday.

He makes plenty of mistakes in possession too but because he's young and new he's getting cut some slack which people don't want to give Sissoko.

 

[braineclipse]

First costly mistake for us?

He was out-muscled by Rondon at Wembley when he had the chance to clear the ball which gave them an early goal and resulted in us dropping 2 points.
He was sent off at Watford which cost us 2 points.
He was booked at Swansea and extremely lucky not to get a 2nd yellow which could've cost us again.
Own goal on Sunday.

He makes plenty of mistakes in possession too but because he's young and new he's getting cut some slack which people don't want to give Sissoko.

Good summary.

I'll just add that there are more reasons why people are more willing to accept the mistakes from Sanchez. Primarily that he has been performing at a very high level overall. He has started 17 league games and 6 CL games so far. Accepting your summary as comprehensive that's 3 costly mistakes, one more that could have been as well as some errors on the ball that haven't been punished.

For a centre back that's pretty good. It's not Vertonghen or Alderweireld levels of awesomeness, but it's good. He's overall performed at a level that would make him a starter at several of our top 6 rivals imo. He's been excellent to good a lot of the time. A clear improvement on Wimmer who he replaced and imo better than Dier at centre back who he competes with when everyone's fit. Lloris has a similar number of mistakes I think, we accept them. All our players makes mistakes some of the time, we usually accept them. At least to some extent.

Sissoko has been decent to good some of the time. Most of the time he's been significantly worse. He's overall performed at a level that wouldn't get him into the squads of our rivals and only into the teams of teams further down the take. He doesn't get the kind of acceptance for errors as Sanchez, Lloris, Kane, Son or other high performers do. That's the nature of the game.

 

[90291Spur]

First costly mistake for us?

He was out-muscled by Rondon at Wembley when he had the chance to clear the ball which gave them an early goal and resulted in us dropping 2 points.
He was sent off at Watford which cost us 2 points.
He was booked at Swansea and extremely lucky not to get a 2nd yellow which could've cost us again.
Own goal on Sunday.

He makes plenty of mistakes in possession too but because he's young and new he's getting cut some slack which people don't want to give Sissoko.

And for being young and new to the league he DESERVES some slack. Also, his mistakes as a defender, can more directly lead to conceding goals, while Sissoko’s mistakes TEND to be higher up the pitch.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

UOTE="tynesidespur, post: 1005381, member: 320"]First costly mistake for us?

He was out-muscled by Rondon at Wembley when he had the chance to clear the ball which gave them an early goal and resulted in us dropping 2 points.
He was sent off at Watford which cost us 2 points.
He was booked at Swansea and extremely lucky not to get a 2nd yellow which could've cost us again.
Own goal on Sunday.

He makes plenty of mistakes in possession too but because he's young and new he's getting cut some slack which people don't want to give Sissoko.[/QUOTE]


I'm referring to mistakes that lead directly to a goal. Being out muscled was not a technical error, he just wasn't strong enough. But anyway, if you think there is even a degree of equivalency between Sanchez and Sissoko...good luck with that. BTW, Sanchez was roundly criticized for the Rondon goal. If I remember correctly, he should not have been sent off, so I don't see why that should be grounds for having a go at him You cultists just don't get it... my having a go at the fact that Sissoko is in the main a dud, does not mean that I refuse to equally criticize other players.

 

[tynesidespur]

Good summary.

I'll just add that there are more reasons why people are more willing to accept the mistakes from Sanchez. Primarily that he has been performing at a very high level overall. He has started 17 league games and 6 CL games so far. Accepting your summary as comprehensive that's 3 costly mistakes, one more that could have been as well as some errors on the ball that haven't been punished.

For a centre back that's pretty good. It's not Vertonghen or Alderweireld levels of awesomeness, but it's good. He's overall performed at a level that would make him a starter at several of our top 6 rivals imo. He's been excellent to good a lot of the time. A clear improvement on Wimmer who he replaced and imo better than Dier at centre back who he competes with when everyone's fit. Lloris has a similar number of mistakes I think, we accept them. All our players makes mistakes some of the time, we usually accept them. At least to some extent.

Sissoko has been decent to good some of the time. Most of the time he's been significantly worse. He's overall performed at a level that wouldn't get him into the squads of our rivals and only into the teams of teams further down the take. He doesn't get the kind of acceptance for errors as Sanchez, Lloris, Kane, Son or other high performers do. That's the nature of the game.

Pretty much agree with this overall.
Dier/Sanchez - there's not much between them at centre-half for me. Both make the occasional error when playing there. He's a big step up from Wimmer, agreed. I always thought, even during his first stint that the system was masking Wimmer's weaknesses.

Overall I think Sanchez has done well and perhaps been forced into longer spell in the team due to Alderweireld's absence. Mistakes happen and generally I am accepting of those as long as they aren't repeatedly of the same type or completely avoidable and more down to rank stupidity (something I saw on a regular basis when we had the Ginger Pele playing at the back in the dark old days). Sanchez has excellent raw attributes, has slotted into the system very well and has been quick to learn but some of the mistakes on the ball are unnecessary as is his in-game discipline. You could accept the red at Watford but if he'd got another one only a few games later that was bordering on stupidity - especially the area he gave away the 2nd foul which should've led to a red. I also think his technique on the ball is pretty poor but he's working on it every week.

Sissoko is an OK player, he puts in a shift and I think positionally he does a job for the team when asked by the manager. He is certainly not above criticism and I was pretty mad at him for missing a presentable chance on Sunday. He needs to be burying those and similar ones away at Leicester. His technique/passing is fine in deep areas and he can win the ball and give it to more capable team-mates. Higher up the pitch he falls short of the other attacking players we have.
It seems to me though, that he is picked out by a significant number of people if we don't win a game in which he's involved. Not currently a cult member but I might consider signing up.

 

[Finney Is Back]

A starter for every team outside the top 6?

Hmmmm I think that is the real stretch.

Which of the teams from 7th to 20th would he not start for? Perhaps Leicester? (although IMO he would probably be absolutely perfect for them and their system).

 

[Finney Is Back]

No, no, and no! That was Sanchez's first big and costly mistake, but Sissoko has missed plenty of sitters. Yes, yes and yes, he is often the worst player out of the 22 on the pitch.

Of Sunday's game or overall?

Do you think Watford would still have got a point against us had we kept 11 on the pitch? Do you think West Brom would've got a draw against us had Rondon not nabbed the opener by bullying Sanchez off the ball when Sanchez was clear favourite?

 

[Finney Is Back]

I'm referring to mistakes that lead directly to a goal. Being out muscled was not a technical error, he just wasn't strong enough. But anyway, if you think there is even a degree of equivalency between Sanchez and Sissoko...good luck with that. BTW, Sanchez was roundly criticized for the Rondon goal. If I remember correctly, he should not have been sent off, so I don't see why that should be grounds for having a go at him You cultists just don't get it... my having a go at the fact that Sissoko is in the main a dud, does not mean that I refuse to equally criticize other players.

The point I was making (perhaps badly?) is that there were two scenarios in the Southampton game on Sunday that were quite similar in that a ball flashed across the goal. Sanchez is excused for diverting the ball into our own net by the very same people who call out Sissoko for 'missing a sitter' when if anything it seemed as though Sissoko had far less time to react than Sanchez did.

Re: Being out muscled by Rondon not being a 'technical error'. It seems that we are now getting specific. I would say it was a massive technical error. Sanchez had the opportunity to deal with that ball but chose to try to out muscle his opponent, only to choose perhaps the most powerfully built centre forward in the league. I would bet big money that if Sissoko had performed exactly the same action as Sanchez did and seen the same outcome then you would've been all over that mistake.

I assume that those on here that can't stand Sissoko and want him out of the team at all costs have no faith in Pochettino? After all Poch has given him what?.... 30+ games this season? Now I know that no manager is perfect - but surely a player who is always the worst of all 22 on the pitch wouldn't constantly be getting picked in the team/squad by a manager as good as Pochettino?

 

[Finney Is Back]

When Eriksen missed a chance from a ball coming as hard from closer on his weaker foot he was criticized by many. If I remember correctly he had a bit more of the goal to hit, but it wasn't an easier chance for me. Like with Sissoko there were some who only criticized the finish and some who argued that it wasn't that easy of a chance.

The cross from Davies wasn't perfect, but better than any cross Sissoko or Aurier or most other players in our team managed in that game. Davies also delivered an assist for Kane from a corner.

I really don't think Sissoko is getting targeted particularly on here. He just keeps on not delivering anything close to the standard of other players in the team. I don't think he should be judged on a different standard.

You think that was a cross? I thought it was pretty clearly a mis-hit shot. If it was a cross then it was a poor one as it was hit miles too hard

 

[Legohamster]

Which of the teams from 7th to 20th would he not start for? Perhaps Leicester? (although IMO he would probably be absolutely perfect for them and their system).

Teams that want to win games?

Last time he was a starter for a team out side the top 6 they went down.

Leicester/West Ham/Everton/Burnley - Debatable Palace/Bmuff/WBA/Stoke

Does he fit any teams tactics?

For all the teams he supposedly fits in only us and Everton bid.

 

[90291Spur]

Teams that want to win games?

Last time he was a starter for a team out side the top 6 they went down.

Leicester/West Ham/Everton/Burnley - Debatable Palace/Bmuff/WBA/Stoke

Does he fit any teams tactics?

For all the teams he supposedly fits in only us and Everton bid.

Apparently he fits our team tactics as Poch starts him so often. I struggle to believe we don’t have a single player who could replace him in the starting line up right now. Even if it means starting Lamela or Wanyama knowing you’ll have to sub them after 60 minutes because they’re not ready for the full 90 (+4).

 

[scaramanga]

He really isn't the worst player of all 22 in terms of ability, that is a huge stretch. He may be the worst in our team in terms of ability, or more pertinently technique (although I'm not even completely sure of that) but he would be a guaranteed starter for every team outside of the top 6. The problem I have here is that even though he may have the worst technique of the entire first team, IMO there has only been one game where he has been the worst performer for us (Leicester away) yet he is the one who tends to be called out no matter what. I thought there were at least 4 players who Sissoko performed better than at the weekend, yet some still feel that Sissoko being in the team was the biggest reason for us failing to win.

An example of what I think is clearly unconscious bias is the different reactions to Sanchez's own goal and Sissoko's miss.... Sanchez is considered 'unlucky' for his part in the own goal, whereas Sissoko's miss was considered to be abject faiure by some. If you look at it objectively Sanchez had far more time to react to the ball across goal than Sissoko did from Davies' mibrick shot. Surely if Sanchez was unlucky then Sissoko was also unlucky? Or conversely both of them failed abysmally and were equally culpable in us dropping two points?

I think that's just perception because he's not always actively doing something bad with the ball now.

What he isn't doing is what also makes him stand out as out of place in our team. He's not taking up any decent attacking positions when we have the ball, leaving Dier & Dembele only two thirds of the attacking midfield to pass to. He's not good enough on the ball that the rest of our team can gamble on moving forwards when he gets it. His thinking isn't nearly sharp enough to allow for us to make fast transitions through him and his vision isn't good enough to quickly work out where the value pass is at any given time. Yes, he's started completing his passes and that's a hell of an improvement on his play from last season, but those passes are almost never the value ones in terms of creating an attack.

Our play between defence and the two deep-lying midfielders is good, our play between attacking midfield and Kane is good. The bit between the back of midfield and the front of it is currently terrible and he's playing a huge part in that.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I took a look at the player stats from Sunday's game on whoscored.com to see whether the stats backed up Sissoko being the worst player out of the 22 on the pitch. I compared against the four players who I thought clearly had worse games than Sissoko at the weekend - Dembele, Dier, Son and Ali. The stats perhaps provide quite an interesting 'unbiased' view?


Sissoko
Rating 7.08.
Clearances: 2
Tackles: 3
Interceptions: 1
Arial duals won: 2
Fouls: 1
Fouled: 1
Total Passes: 43
Pass success: 83.7%
Key Passes: 4
shots: 2
Bad Control: 1

Dier
Rating 6.78
Clearances: 3
Tackles: 2
Interceptions: 1
Arial duals won: 1
Fouls: 0
Fouled: 0
Total Passes: 69
Pass success: 81.2%
Key Passes: 0
shots: 3
Bad Control: 1

Dembele
Rating: 6.64
Clearances: 1
Tackles: 0
Interceptions: 0
Arial duals won: 0
Fouls: 6
Fouled: 0
Total Passes: 50
Pass success: 86%
Key Passes: 1
shots: 1
Bad Control: 1

Son
Rating: 6.10
Clearances: 0
Tackles: 1
Interceptions: 0
Arial duals won: 0
Fouls: 0
Fouled: 0
Total Passes: 24
Pass success: 91.7%
Key Passes: 0
shots: 0
Bad Control: 2

Ali
Rating: 6.34
Clearances: 0
Tackles: 1
Interceptions: 0
Arial duals won: 1
Fouls: 2
Fouled: 2
Total Passes: 25
Pass success: 72%
Key Passes: 3
shots: 3
Bad Control: 2

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think that's just perception because he's not always actively doing something bad with the ball now.

What he isn't doing is what also makes him stand out as out of place in our team. He's not taking up any decent attacking positions when we have the ball, leaving Dier & Dembele only two thirds of the attacking midfield to pass to. He's not good enough on the ball that the rest of our team can gamble on moving forwards when he gets it. His thinking isn't nearly sharp enough to allow for us to make fast transitions through him and his vision isn't good enough to quickly work out where the value pass is at any given time. Yes, he's started completing his passes and that's a hell of an improvement on his play from last season, but those passes are almost never the value ones in terms of creating an attack.

Our play between defence and the two deep-lying midfielders is good, our play between attacking midfield and Kane is good. The bit between the back of midfield and the front of it is currently terrible and he's playing a huge part in that.

And yet the stats from Sunday's game that I just posted indicate a different view Scara. The joint least 'bad touches' of the 5, smack bang in the middle in terms of pass success and the most key passes of any of the five players.

 

[scaramanga]

I took a look at the player stats from Sunday's game on whoscored.com to see whether the stats backed up Sissoko being the worst player out of the 22 on the pitch. I compared against the four players who I thought clearly had worse games than Sissoko at the weekend - Dembele, Dier, Son and Ali. The stats perhaps provide quite an interesting 'unbiased' view?


Sissoko
Rating 7.08.
Clearances: 2
Tackles: 2
Interceptions: 0
Arial duals won: 2
Fouls: 1
Fouled: 1
Total Passes: 43
Pass success: 83.7%
Key Passes: 4
shots: 2
Bad Control: 1

Dier
Rating 6.78
Clearances: 3
Tackles: 2
Interceptions: 1
Arial duals won: 1
Fouls: 0
Fouled: 0
Total Passes: 69
Pass success: 81.2%
Key Passes: 0
shots: 3
Bad Control: 1

Dembele
Rating: 6.64
Clearances: 1
Tackles: 0
Interceptions: 0
Arial duals won: 0
Fouls: 6
Fouled: 0
Total Passes: 50
Pass success: 86%
Key Passes: 1
shots: 1
Bad Control: 1

Son
Rating: 6.10
Clearances: 0
Tackles: 1
Interceptions: 0
Arial duals won: 0
Fouls: 0
Fouled: 0
Total Passes: 24
Pass success: 91.7%
Key Passes: 0
shots: 0
Bad Control: 2

Ali
Rating: 6.34
Clearances: 0
Tackles: 1
Interceptions: 0
Arial duals won: 1
Fouls: 2
Fouled: 2
Total Passes: 25
Pass success: 72%
Key Passes: 3
shots: 3
Bad Control: 2

So you've taken Sissoko's figures and put them against 4 players who were trying to make something happen in the match, having to bypass one of our midfielders?

Dier, for example, had to make 12 long passes out of his 69 - partly because one third of the midfield in front of him holds no attacking value. For a normal midfielder, Sissoko's pass completion is average. For a midfielder that's always taking the safe option (and often turning it into a hospital pass) that's pretty low.

It's also worth noting that his stats are fairly similar to Alli's and Son's - two players lambasted on here for each having one of the worst games of their careers. This was a pretty good day at the office by Sissoko standards.

 

[Finney Is Back]

So you've taken Sissoko's figures and put them against 4 players who were trying to make something happen in the match, having to bypass one of our midfielders?

Dier, for example, had to make 12 long passes out of his 69 - partly because one third of the midfield in front of him holds no attacking value. For a normal midfielder, Sissoko's pass completion is average. For a midfielder that's always taking the safe option (and often turning it into a hospital pass) that's pretty low.

It's also worth noting that his stats are fairly similar to Alli's and Son's - two players lambasted on here for each having one of the worst games of their careers. This was a pretty good day at the office by Sissoko standards.

4 key passes from Sissoko Scara. More than any of the above players, in fact the most of any of the 28 players who played - but all he does is miscontrols it, passes it to the opposition and spaz's it out of play - right?!?

Also Spurs v West Brom.... Eric Dier - 10 long balls played. Sissoko was on the bench and didn't come on. Maybe even having Sissoko on the bench is enough for Dier to have to play it long eh Scara?