Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[BrainOfLevy]

Ah come on mate. You can't say it makes no sense.

When the Madrid rumours were knocking about, the rationale a lot of people used to convince themselves Poch wouldn't move was "Madrid don't have a philosophy to suit Poch. They sack managers every 5 minutes."

Man Utd are a similar sized club but they don't do that. They think more long term. Moyes got a chance until Champions League Football was no longer possible. Now, that wasn't exactly long term but Madrid fired Lopetegui after 3 months. At least Moyes pretty much got a season and it was in the context of the club being Champions League regulars for the previous 15 seasons so to finish 7th represented massive failure. Van Gaal got 2 seasons of pretty much dire football with very limited success. Mourinho got away with 6th in his first year because he showed some signs of progress with the two cups and got an extension on his contract when he looked like he was making genuine progress in the PL. Even at the end, there was no major push from the match-going supporters to fire him. At Madrid, all of those managers would have been fired much sooner. That's because United do have a much different outlook, more in line with Poch's beliefs, than Madrid. They also have a history of bringing through youth and they have vast resources which Poch won't get here. There are also strong noises coming from the media and the club that they want to "reset" and do things differently and with a more long term focus.

Manchester United is one of the biggest jobs in world football. As a club, only Barcelona and Real Madrid are in the same stratosphere. They also have more resources than us. So while I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that Poch will go or is even interested, I don't think anyone can say that it makes no sense for him to go there even if he did reject Real Madrid in the summer.

Look, I can certainly see the sense, and I can certainly see the arguments that United would make to try and persuade him, I just don’t think they are any better than the arguments Madrid could have made.

Ultimately, Poch is successful because of the relationship he has with Levy and importantly the level of control that he has with our club. If he wants to bench Toby for half a season, he doesn’t have Levy in his ear telling him he is depreciating his transfer value, he gets his full trust. If he decides he doesn’t want to sign anyone in the summer if he can’t get his preferred targets, Levy (rather than sign players on the advice of agents or other advisors for the long term, as he has done in the past) is going to listen to Poch. Because its important to show that level of trust, rather than viewing the Manager as someone who will be gone in two years. As Poch gets that trust, it enables him to be as successful as possible. He has total control.

This is beyond clubs deciding they want to try signing younger players with potential. Every club is doing that. Madrid is doing it. Bayern is doing it. They all recognise they need to be more sustainable. But if Poch goes to United, and gets told he is in another Sanchez situation where they are signing him to prevent a direct competitor from getting him, and because of the social media buzz it will generate, it isn’t going to work. Is Woodward going to stop that for Poch? Is he going to sign a player like Pogba in the future for the commercial upside regardless of whether he fits Poch’s system or culture? Is he going to spend big on a less sexy player because Poch asks Woodward to trust him, or is he going to do what he thinks is best for United as a business?

I’m sure they want to go a younger route, and I’m sure Poch would be much better for them than Mourinho was, but I think so much of what makes Poch successful are the more intangible elements of trust and control. And you only get that when you have a relationship that is built up through time, to earn that trust. Poch would be leaving us, leaving the surest thing he will ever have to a job for life at a top club, a potential statue-outside-the-stadium career, in order to take a flyer on United. He would have to be bloody confident that he would eventually get the same trust from Woodward as he gets from Levy, and I don’t think Woodward can give him that. I don’t think Madrid could either, but I think Poch views that as a fun job to have a crack at in the future, once he has built his legacy, rather than a short term goal.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Whatever the truth, I can’t pretend to know exactly why he doesn’t just issue a denial to kill the story.

One thing we do know though is that Poch is very canny. He understands that for a manager things could turn dogbrick at any time so he is always going to keep his options open.

The flip side of that is he is forever stressing to his players and to the media the huge premium he places on loyalty. It is a massive thing with him. Remember his fury with Walker for revealing he wanted to go at a time when Poch felt his focus should have been 101% on chasing down Leicester for the title? How would it then look to his players if he chose now to admit he was after the United job? They would stop giving their all for him immediately, so no way is he going to give hostage to fortune on that one.

Yet he has said several times he fully understands why players want to further their careers by going to 'bigger' clubs. For Poch it's all about how you manage your aspirations in relation to your club's situation and the media.

So we can be sure Poch will keep his cards tight to his chest until the last ball is kicked at the end of the season.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

The other thing that isn’t really discussed that much is that United are seemingly trying to hire a DOF, because they have seen how difficult it is to transition away from one man who oversaw the entire club to what they do now. Even if Poch was interested, he wouldn’t know who the DOF is so he couldn’t possibly make the call. So the stories in The Times of him wanting the job are laughable nonsense, not least when you consider the hilarious Paul Mitchell links thrown in - he was cast aside so Poch could assume more control. They don’t have a clue on that side of things.

The only tangible thing United could say is ‘we’ll give you minimum £4M more a year than you will ever make at Spurs’ and maybe Poch says screw it, I’ll do it. I want my family to be secure for generations to come. But I don’t think Poch thinks that way. I think he knows that £12M a year for a couple of years is good, but a risk and he’d be booted back down the ranks like Moyes was if it doesn’t work out. So his 8.5M a year at Spurs which is more secure and will continue to grow is actually better for him and his family. He wouldn’t necessarily join the ranks of the super coach Merry Go Round, because he isn’t a trophy winner and will be viewed as having failed at the one big shot he took.

At the end of the day I think Poch is the next Fergie. I’m not saying he is going to lead us to 25 years of unbridled dominance, but the way he thinks about management and leadership is very similar. But it is based on having absolute control. Otherwise it doesn’t work. That’s why he knew that he might have been packing his bags had Kane not scored that free kick against Villa in his first season. He couldn’t ask Levy to trust him totally if he didn’t get that initial traction. And it’s a procsss of establishing your ways, methods, cultures, systems right the way across the club, so everyone falls in line. And if everyone does that, they will rise up a level and be successful. It took Fergie a few years to get everything in place and over his time with us, Poch has done the same thing. He isn’t going to give that up to take a flyer somewhere else. Again I’ll repeat, for everything we know of the man, it doesn’t make sense. If this was United under David Gill, maybe Poch now would be the right guy and be tempted, as the true heir to Fergie. Woodward’s United is not for Poch though, I’m more sure of it as each day goes by.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

He would have to ship out a lot of players

IMO he has one defender that he would want in shaw and I think he is over rated personally

He doesn’t have a top class CM with either (unless people still think Pogba can play in this league) which at spurs was an area he didn’t have to address and arguably still hasn’t as he inherited everyone sort from Dier who was bought as a CB but onbviously Poch is the man who converted him

Up front the have talent but they don’t have a Kane level striker, or a player who does it in the big games like Alli does so regularly so that’s a challenge for him

They do have money to burn but for me the areas their weak are also areas that others need to strengthen in too so the pool of talent is smaller

You don't ''know' what players are there.

Sissoko, Lamela, Tripper, Mason, Moose...

There could be rough diamonds and hidden gems that just need the Poch magic. Calling things at face value is risky before Poch steps in the door.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You don't ''know' what players are there.

Sissoko, Lamela, Tripper, Mason, Moose...

There could be rough diamonds and hidden gems that just need the Poch magic. Calling things at face value is risky before Poch steps in the door.

Very true
But it works both ways
It’s a risk assuming they have rough diamonds when your stock is so high as Poch is
Fail at united and your career doesn’t bounce back

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The other thing that isn’t really discussed that much is that United are seemingly trying to hire a DOF, because they have seen how difficult it is to transition away from one man who oversaw the entire club to what they do now. Even if Poch was interested, he wouldn’t know who the DOF is so he couldn’t possibly make the call. So the stories in The Times of him wanting the job are laughable nonsense, not least when you consider the hilarious Paul Mitchell links thrown in - he was cast aside so Poch could assume more control. They don’t have a clue on that side of things.

The only tangible thing United could say is ‘we’ll give you minimum £4M more a year than you will ever make at Spurs’ and maybe Poch says screw it, I’ll do it. I want my family to be secure for generations to come. But I don’t think Poch thinks that way. I think he knows that £12M a year for a couple of years is good, but a risk and he’d be booted back down the ranks like Moyes was if it doesn’t work out. So his 8.5M a year at Spurs which is more secure and will continue to grow is actually better for him and his family. He wouldn’t necessarily join the ranks of the super coach Merry Go Round, because he isn’t a trophy winner and will be viewed as having failed at the one big shot he took.

At the end of the day I think Poch is the next Fergie. I’m not saying he is going to lead us to 25 years of unbridled dominance, but the way he thinks about management and leadership is very similar. But it is based on having absolute control. Otherwise it doesn’t work. That’s why he knew that he might have been packing his bags had Kane not scored that free kick against Villa in his first season. He couldn’t ask Levy to trust him totally if he didn’t get that initial traction. And it’s a procsss of establishing your ways, methods, cultures, systems right the way across the club, so everyone falls in line. And if everyone does that, they will rise up a level and be successful. It took Fergie a few years to get everything in place and over his time with us, Poch has done the same thing. He isn’t going to give that up to take a flyer somewhere else. Again I’ll repeat, for everything we know of the man, it doesn’t make sense. If this was United under David Gill, maybe Poch now would be the right guy and be tempted, as the true heir to Fergie. Woodward’s United is not for Poch though, I’m more sure of it as each day goes by.

Took fergie roughly 10 years to get it how eh wanted it by all accounts

 

[StephenH]

I’m getting bored already with all things manumanager!

 

[DeanoAustin]

Look, I can certainly see the sense, and I can certainly see the arguments that United would make to try and persuade him, I just don’t think they are any better than the arguments Madrid could have made.

Ultimately, Poch is successful because of the relationship he has with Levy and importantly the level of control that he has with our club. If he wants to bench Toby for half a season, he doesn’t have Levy in his ear telling him he is depreciating his transfer value, he gets his full trust. If he decides he doesn’t want to sign anyone in the summer if he can’t get his preferred targets, Levy (rather than sign players on the advice of agents or other advisors for the long term, as he has done in the past) is going to listen to Poch. Because its important to show that level of trust, rather than viewing the Manager as someone who will be gone in two years. As Poch gets that trust, it enables him to be as successful as possible. He has total control.

This is beyond clubs deciding they want to try signing younger players with potential. Every club is doing that. Madrid is doing it. Bayern is doing it. They all recognise they need to be more sustainable. But if Poch goes to United, and gets told he is in another Sanchez situation where they are signing him to prevent a direct competitor from getting him, and because of the social media buzz it will generate, it isn’t going to work. Is Woodward going to stop that for Poch? Is he going to sign a player like Pogba in the future for the commercial upside regardless of whether he fits Poch’s system or culture? Is he going to spend big on a less sexy player because Poch asks Woodward to trust him, or is he going to do what he thinks is best for United as a business?

I’m sure they want to go a younger route, and I’m sure Poch would be much better for them than Mourinho was, but I think so much of what makes Poch successful are the more intangible elements of trust and control. And you only get that when you have a relationship that is built up through time, to earn that trust. Poch would be leaving us, leaving the surest thing he will ever have to a job for life at a top club, a potential statue-outside-the-stadium career, in order to take a flyer on United. He would have to be bloody confident that he would eventually get the same trust from Woodward as he gets from Levy, and I don’t think Woodward can give him that. I don’t think Madrid could either, but I think Poch views that as a fun job to have a crack at in the future, once he has built his legacy, rather than a short term goal.

There are a lot of assumptions in there about United. What makes you think Sanchez was forced on Mourinho? Sanchez strikes me as exactly the type of signing that Mourinho would make - it just didn't work out.

Poch will get more control at United than he'll get at most other top tier clubs. They're also far more long term in their outlook than Madrid or Barcelona. And now is the time to move if that's what he wants because Woodward is in a weak position there. If his next manager fails, I can't see Woodward lasting. Even if Poch wins the PL and CL with us, he's never going to get exactly what he wants at any club like Barca, Madrid or United. Now is as good a time as any to get close to what he wants and while his stock is high now, it would only take a 5th place finish and no trophies for his stock to fall a bit externally.

You said it "makes no sense" for him to move to United after rejecting Madrid. It does make sense on some levels.

That doesn't mean he will move or that he's interested. I can see the arguments for moving and the arguments for staying and his interview with Sky has given me a lot of encouragement because I don't believe Poch is the type of man to sit in front of a camera and pretty much lie. Particularly with all that's gone on this week. But I wouldn't rule anything out at this stage.

 

[Sandman]

The arrogance of untied fans is astounding. Talking about dark times. Ooh man 6th is so bad whilst still winning two trophies.

They had a panel of Manchester United fans on football focus and they asked the inevitable question. They all said Poch. Why not Klopp or Pep. We should fight tooth and nail. Poch has a 4.5 year contract left. I would support putting him on gardening leave rather than let him go to United.

We are not here to feed them. Just because you are the number 1 team in revenues does not give you the right to be top of the league or challenge.

Poch has all he needs here. We dig in on this one.

 

[milo]

Poch will get more control at United than he'll get at most other top tier clubs.

I don't see how you can say that with any confidence. Woodward refused to sell players that Mourinho wanted gone. I cannot see Poch standing for that.

They're also far more long term in their outlook than Madrid or Barcelona.

You could say that in the past but I don't think that has been the case for a while.

 

[Mosquito_Coasting]

I think we should loan him to Madrid for a season. He can get it out of his system, see what a circus it is and then come back to us.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I don't see how you can say that with any confidence. Woodward refused to sell players that Mourinho wanted gone. I cannot see Poch standing for that.



You could say that in the past but I don't think that has been the case for a while.

Woodward can’t afford another failure. He’s under a lot of pressure in the wake of Mourinho’s sacking. There is also a much stronger culture in Spain of presidents signing players regardless of what the manager wants.

United are more sensible in their outlook than other clubs particularly the other top tier sides. They gave Moyes a 6 year contract. Okay they sacked him 10 months in but only after a spectacular failure (in not getting CL football). They gave Mourinho a contract extension when he’d done nothing more than win two second rate trophies and show some progress in the league. They only fired him when the situation became untenable. Madrid fired their coach after 3 months. Even look at the supporters. At United, they never really turned on Mourinho at the games. In Madrid, lose to the Spanish equivalent of Brighton or Derby and the white hankies are out.

I know we want to talk the United job down but it is so much more stable and they’re much more sensible than, say, Madrid.

 

[milo]

Woodward can’t afford another failure. He’s under a lot of pressure in the wake of Mourinho’s sacking. There is also a much stronger culture in Spain of presidents signing players regardless of what the manager wants.

United are more sensible in their outlook than other clubs particularly the other top tier sides. They gave Moyes a 6 year contract. Okay they sacked him 10 months in but only after a spectacular failure (in not getting CL football). They gave Mourinho a contract extension when he’d done nothing more than win two second rate trophies and show some progress in the league. They only fired him when the situation became untenable. Madrid fired their coach after 3 months. Even look at the supporters. At United, they never really turned on Mourinho at the games. In Madrid, lose to the Spanish equivalent of Brighton or Derby and the white hankies are out.

I know we want to talk the United job down but it is so much more stable and they’re much more sensible than, say, Madrid.

Your argument seems to be based on Woodward behaving completely differently with his next manager than he has with the last three. It is possible but I do not find it very persuasive.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Your argument seems to be based on Woodward behaving completely differently with his next manager than he has with the last three. It is possible but I do not find it very persuasive.

Except it’s not. That’s only part of it. There is also the decades of evidence, including recent history, that shows that United is a more stable club than Real Madrid and the manager has a far bigger say at Old Trafford than The Bernabeu.

 

[milo]

Except it’s not. That’s only part of it. There is also the decades of evidence, including recent history, that shows that United is a more stable club than Real Madrid and the manager has a far bigger say at Old Trafford than The Bernabeu.

I'd put that down to Ferguson

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Except it’s not. That’s only part of it. There is also the decades of evidence, including recent history, that shows that United is a more stable club than Real Madrid and the manager has a far bigger say at Old Trafford than The Bernabeu.

Decades under one manager I’d agree

The last 5/7 years have been about as stable as Eddie the eagle

 

[Daisuk]

I think we should loan him to Madrid for a season. He can get it out of his system, see what a circus it is and then come back to us.

Hehehehe, sounds like a great idea. I work with mentally challenged people (not sure what the politically correct English expression is these days I'm afraid, so please excuse me if that expression is offensive in some way), and some of them sometimes want to have a baby - we then offer them the chance to borrow this baby robot doll for a week, and it cries and shreeks and needs attention just like a real baby. None so far have wanted a baby after trying that out - in fact, most of the ones who tries gives up after a few hours.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I'd put that down to Ferguson

Decades under one manager I’d agree

The last 5/7 years have been about as stable as Eddie the eagle

The last few years have been less stable than the previous 26 and less stable than they’ve have liked. But if you’re comparing United to Madrid, none of the three managers Man U have had since Fergie would have gotten nearly as long at Madrid as they did at United.

Any manager going in there that does a good job (ie has them challenging playing decent football) will have job security at United.

 

[parklane1]

.

Manchester United is one of the biggest jobs in world football. As a club, only Barcelona and Real Madrid are in the same stratosphere. They also have more resources than us. So while I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that Poch will go or is even interested, I don't think anyone can say that it makes no sense for him to go there even if he did reject Real Madrid in the summer.

tickle my balls with a feather, i can not believe those who are saying Utd are not a bigger club then us. I hate Utd ( more then any club) but there is no doubt they are in the same box as Madrid, Barcelona when it comes to attraction for players and managers.

I do not think Poch will go there but it would be stupid to suggest that are not a draw for managers and players.

 

[milo]

But if you’re comparing United to Madrid, none of the three managers Man U have had since Fergie would have gotten nearly as long at Madrid as they did at United.

Let's compare records since Ferguson retired.

United

Moyes - July 2013 - April 2014
Giggs - April 2014 - May 2014
Van Gaal - July 2014 - May 2016
Mourinho - May 2016 - December 2018
Solskjaer - December 2018 -

Madrid

Ancelotti - June 2013 - May 2015
Benítez - June 2015 - January 2016
Zidane - January 2016 - May 2018
Lopetegui - June 2018 - October 2018
Solari - October 2018 -

It looks pretty similar to me.