Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[braineclipse]

Lennon works harder than most players in matches at least, surely that is the most important thing. He has never looked like a player who has been unfit, except perhaps in the first two or three games after returning from injury.

It can't be footballing reasons why he has been shipped out though, that I can agree with. Pochettino surely cannot be that incompetent. Lennon is vastly superiour to both Lamela and Townsend. I watched Everton's last two matches, and Lennon was excellent.

It was strange how he came into the team for a couple of games, did well, and then he wasn't seen again. He came on at half time at Hull, played well, helped us turn the game around and got an assist. Then he started against Everton, got another assist, played well again. Next was Chelsea away, he was decent enough overall, but perhaps partly to blame for one of Chelsea's goals. After that I don't think he played for us again before going to Everton.

Something similar happened to Dembele. He was in the team for a few games, played very well, but then he had one poor game at home to West Ham. Since then he has barely been involved. You get the feeling that some players are dropped at the first opportunity whilst others can perform poorly quite regularly, but still retain their place in the team or at least get more opportunities in not too long.

Well, yes and no...

Of course when you're there on match day and the game is important what happens on the pitch is the most important thing. But how do we get to a point where more players are capable of performing at the level we all want to see on a regular basis? Surely what happens in training is decisive for what happens in matches.

Pochettino is very demanding of his players in training. We've seen for ourselves what can happen when you combine talent and extremely hard work in training with individual players that were often praised for their work rate and dedication in training and combined that with talent (Bale, Modric). It seems to me that Pochettino is trying to change the culture at the club, to one where pushing yourself in training week in week out to become as good as possible is the only accepted standard.

We'll see very talented players like Pritchard and Alli either return to or join up with the squad this summer. We have supremely talented in our youth and development setup trying to break into the first team. We'll probably add more relatively young talented players again this summer. I want these players to come into a team/club/squad where "he works hard in games and is physically fit and content" is not seen as good enough. I want them to become a part of a group of players with the kinds of attitudes we've heard from Kane and Bentaleb in just this last week.

Long term for the club I think that's much better for us. And thus I also think that ultimately, although what goes on in games is of course important, what happens in training is decisive. I would happily see the back of any player currently in the squad if Pochettino deems them as not working hard enough in training to live up to his standards

 

[Roland Beurre]

Probably just as well Ledley retired when he did then

 

[braineclipse]

Probably just as well Ledley retired when he did then

Ledley was fantastic when fit, or nearly fit, or close to fit enough to be on a football pitch. And will always be remembered, amongst other things, for just how unfulfilled his potential ultimately was.

We will never know how his career had panned out had he been at a club and in a squad with true professionals throughout his career. Just my guess, but I think he would have clocked up more than 21 appearances for England...

 

[NWND]

I've been thinking (yes, yes, I know). One of the accusations I often see levelled at Pochettino is the 'lack of a plan B'. But thinking back over the season, I'm not sure this is a fair one.

Sure, there have been games where we have started off badly, the subs haven't worked and plan A, plan B and plan C go to cr**. Happens to all teams, from time-to-time.

Pochettino has his system. I've seen a lot of formations thrown around as being his 'favourite', but having read up on his Espanyol team and seen plenty of his Southampton team prior to joining us, I don't actually think he has a favoured formation as such. I do think there are some common 'formational' pointers that always seem to be used: always uses a back-four, full-backs pushed on, wide players tucked in and drifting infield. However, even this season with us, he's at times played one upfront, two upfront.

We do press high, that's his hall-mark, clearly, but then he doesn't do it willy-nilly. I think particularly away against Arsenal, he seemed to know that not being experienced in his system and comfortable with the pressing, if we went there of all places against the best quick-passing team in the league and pressed high we would get murdered. So he stuck two banks of four out there and went for a sit deep and hit on the break strategy. It got us a deserved point. So much for a lack of a plan B.

 

[braineclipse]

I've been thinking (yes, yes, I know). One of the accusations I often see levelled at Pochettino is the 'lack of a plan B'. But thinking back over the season, I'm not sure this is a fair one.

Sure, there have been games where we have started off badly, the subs haven't worked and plan A, plan B and plan C go to cr**. Happens to all teams, from time-to-time.

Pochettino has his system. I've seen a lot of formations thrown around as being his 'favourite', but having read up on his Espanyol team and seen plenty of his Southampton team prior to joining us, I don't actually think he has a favoured formation as such. I do think there are some common 'formational' pointers that always seem to be used: always uses a back-four, full-backs pushed on, wide players tucked in and drifting infield. However, even this season with us, he's at times played one upfront, two upfront.

We do press high, that's his hall-mark, clearly, but then he doesn't do it willy-nilly. I think particularly away against Arsenal, he seemed to know that not being experienced in his system and comfortable with the pressing, if we went there of all places against the best quick-passing team in the league and pressed high we would get murdered. So he stuck two banks of four out there and went for a sit deep and hit on the break strategy. It got us a deserved point. So much for a lack of a plan B.

The "lack of a plan B" thing seems to be wheeled out by some almost always when teams fail to meet whatever expectations fans have for the team.

We're still in a transitional/building phase and with the youngest team in Europe (tm) I think there's a lot to be said for a fair deal of consistency and not chopping and changing at every bump in the road. For our young developing players and our not quite as young settling in players I imagine it must be good to know to some extent what's going to be the plan this week, next month and next season instead of wondering if next month is going to bring a(nother) new formation like up at Liverpool. Along with a move from inside forward to wing back or defensive midfielder to centre back etc.

The "plan B" option I would like to see added in the summer transfer market is a proper target man option in the squad. Pochettino had that on paper in Adebayor this season, but it never materialized.

 

[Baleforce]

"lack of plan b" is a quote you tend to see from people not smart enough to notice a tactical shift if the manager doesn't make a substitution or noticeably change the off the ball shape

 

[Gutter Boy]

I'm never sold on the concept of a 'plan b' - to me that's people wanting you to throw Fazio up top for the last 10 minutes because you've got no faith in your proper attackers succeeding. Tactics and game management are much more complex and subtle than that.

I'd rather just keep perfecting our system. Barca or Ajax don't suddenly go all Allardyce when it's not their day. The philosophy (high press, quick transitioning passing etc.) has to stay, or you are just the sum of your parts and never more.

 

[braineclipse]

I'm never sold on the concept of a 'plan b' - to me that's people wanting you to throw Fazio up top for the last 10 minutes because you've got no faith in your proper attackers succeeding. Tactics and game management are much more complex and subtle than that.

I'd rather just keep perfecting our system. Barca or Ajax don't suddenly go all Allardyce when it's not their day. The philosophy (high press, quick transitioning passing etc.) has to stay, or you are just the sum of your parts and never more.

I could have sworn I saw Barca push Pique up front towards the end of a game this season...

I wouldn't want us to go "all Allardyce" either, or push Fazio up as a centre forward necessarily. But having different options for attacking positions can be a valuable tool.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Attitude is indeed important braineclipse.... However I just hope we don't get to a situation where we concentrate solely on that and ignore players with

I'm never sold on the concept of a 'plan b' - to me that's people wanting you to throw Fazio up top for the last 10 minutes because you've got no faith in your proper attackers succeeding. Tactics and game management are much more complex and subtle than that.

I'd rather just keep perfecting our system. Barca or Ajax don't suddenly go all Allardyce when it's not their day. The philosophy (high press, quick transitioning passing etc.) has to stay, or you are just the sum of your parts and never more.

Jesus!.... Do you have any idea about football?!?... A plan B doesn't have to be a long ball game.

It could be dropping the whole team 10 yards deeper, inviting the opposition on and playing on the break. Or it could be switching one of the two wide players who always cut inside for an out and winger, or even switching both of them to really try to stretch the opposition's defence, or it could be changing to three at the back and altering the full backs to play as wing backs. Or it could be altering our lone striker to go two out and out forwards up front, or perhaps dropping the striker back and playing with a false 9, etc, etc, etc.... and you know what?.... if you try something different and you still haven't created a single chance and it looks like you're not going to get something out of the game then chucking a centre half up front for the final few minutes, going long and looking to get on the second ball isn't something that we should turn our nose up at.

 

[parklane1]

The "lack of a plan B" thing seems to be wheeled out by some almost always when teams fail to meet whatever expectations fans have for the team.

We're still in a transitional/building phase and with the youngest team in Europe (tm) I think there's a lot to be said for a fair deal of consistency and not chopping and changing at every bump in the road. For our young developing players and our not quite as young settling in players I imagine it must be good to know to some extent what's going to be the plan this week, next month and next season instead of wondering if next month is going to bring a(nother) new formation like up at Liverpool. Along with a move from inside forward to wing back or defensive midfielder to centre back etc.

The "plan B" option I would like to see added in the summer transfer market is a proper target man option in the squad. Pochettino had that on paper in Adebayor this season, but it never materialized.

Seems about right.

 

[thfcsteff]

Attitude is indeed important braineclipse.... However I just hope we don't get to a situation where we concentrate solely on that and ignore players with

Jesus!.... Do you have any idea about football?!?... A plan B doesn't have to be a long ball game.

It could be dropping the whole team 10 yards deeper, inviting the opposition on and playing on the break. Or it could be switching one of the two wide players who always cut inside for an out and winger, or even switching both of them to really try to stretch the opposition's defence, or it could be changing to three at the back and altering the full backs to play as wing backs. Or it could be altering our lone striker to go two out and out forwards up front, or perhaps dropping the striker back and playing with a false 9, etc, etc, etc.... and you know what?.... if you try something different and you still haven't created a single chance and it looks like you're not going to get something out of the game then chucking a centre half up front for the final few minutes, going long and looking to get on the second ball isn't something that we should turn our nose up at.

Sigh...be careful there mate...

Now, to address your point...Poch, by YOUR definition of a 'plan B' actually employs a plan 'B' and sometimes 'C' on a rolling basis throughout the game.

How many times have you seen our 'wide' players switching wings? Often. How many times have you seen our in-the-hole playmaker switched around/out for one of the 'wide' players? Errr, often. Because surely, given your knowledge of the game, you will have noticed that the front 4 are designed, and deployed, to revolve and rotate according to the situation. This means wide men switching sides during a game and 'hole' players switching out wide sometimes or even swapping off with Kane to create this 'false 9' you mentioned. I have seen it throughout the season at various points during the game. The main issue for Poch is he needs more quality in key positions, or at the very least more consistency. Take Chadli, a gifted player for sure but a 70%er; you never get a full 100% from him IMO.

The plan 'B' myth simply suggests that Poch has no tactical awareness beyond one set idea, and the truth is he has set us up to play in a way where changes are happening consistently depending on the passage of the game and situation within it...

 

[Finney Is Back]

Sigh...be careful there mate...

Now, to address your point...Poch, by YOUR definition of a 'plan B' actually employs a plan 'B' and sometimes 'C' on a rolling basis throughout the game.

How many times have you seen our 'wide' players switching wings? Often. How many times have you seen our in-the-hole playmaker switched around/out for one of the 'wide' players? Errr, often. Because surely, given your knowledge of the game, you will have noticed that the front 4 are designed, and deployed, to revolve and rotate according to the situation. This means wide men switching sides during a game and 'hole' players switching out wide sometimes or even swapping off with Kane to create this 'false 9' you mentioned. I have seen it throughout the season at various points during the game. The main issue for Poch is he needs more quality in key positions, or at the very least more consistency. Take Chadli, a gifted player for sure but a 70%er; you never get a full 100% from him IMO.

The plan 'B' myth simply suggests that Poch has no tactical awareness beyond one set idea, and the truth is he has set us up to play in a way where changes are happening consistently depending on the passage of the game and situation within it...

At no time did I say that Pochettino didn't have a plan B (for example I remember him playing Lennon as a true wide midfielder against Everton to stop Baines getting forward). I was simply pointing out that a plan b doesn't just have to mean shoving a centre half up and lumping it long

 

[braineclipse]

At no time did I say that Pochettino didn't have a plan B (for example I remember him playing Lennon as a true wide midfielder against Everton to stop Baines getting forward). I was simply pointing out that a plan b doesn't just have to mean shoving a centre half up and lumping it long

Look at the post GB wrote that you replied to. He's obviously talking about/to people with a very different view of what a "plan B" is than what you think.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Look at the post GB wrote that you replied to. He's obviously talking about/to people with a very different view of what a "plan B" is than what you think.

Thanks - yes.

Finney I think we're actually agreeing. My whole point was people talking about plan b (usually the denser pundits and red top journalists) don't appreciate the complexity. We don't have 1 or 2 plans, we have scores of much subtler things that are tried that often won't even be noticed by viewers. But unless it is something stark or maverick, the ignorami will complain about this weird plan b thing

 

[thfcsteff]

At no time did I say that Pochettino didn't have a plan B (for example I remember him playing Lennon as a true wide midfielder against Everton to stop Baines getting forward). I was simply pointing out that a plan b doesn't just have to mean shoving a centre half up and lumping it long

Fair enough, apologies, my misinterpretation...it was the 'do you have any idea about football' but that threw me, because one thing no-one can level at GB is that he doesn't know his football. People might not agree with him, but that is a different thing. Anyway...

 

[thfcsteff]

Thanks - yes.

Finney I think we're actually agreeing. My whole point was people talking about plan b (usually the denser pundits and red top journalists) don't appreciate the complexity. We don't have 1 or 2 plans, we have scores of much subtler things that are tried that often won't even be noticed by viewers. But unless it is something stark or maverick, the ignorami will complain about this weird plan b thing

...as I did my best to explain too...

 

[veron23]

Hi guys, been almost a year since I made a proper post. Need to get some things off my chest that I think Poch is failing on.

The main thing is the midfield 2. I know alot of people feel Mason isn't good enough but to me its nothing to do with the personnel. Mason is more than a capable player but needs to play in a 3 not a 2. ANY midfielder (unless maybe the exceptional) in modern football can't apply himself 100% in a 2 man midfield as 9/10 they are playing against a 3 and are literally out of position all day long. Man Utd game is a prime example, Mason didn't know when to press or stay. If he stayed the player on the ball would attack at will, if he pressed he'd leave a gap for the midfield runner.

Eriksen. Simply needs to play on the left with more space. He's not THAT great of a dribbler to play out of congested zones. If Hazard and Silva can be allowed cause havoc from the left why can't we groom Eriksen for that role full time.

Lamela. Is a different human being all together let alone footballer when played in the middle. He has no pace no dribbling poise to play wide. If we continue with him on the right id rather we sell him. Through the middle however he is inventive and should score more goals also with his shooting ability.

Overall I can't stand 4231 as its essentially as frail as a 442 and 343. Liverpool were shown to be overrun when playing 343 and quickly went back to their diamond. It was a joke to see people jump on the bandwagon literally wetting their pants over Brendan's "genius 343" cos they beat City and Burnley who also play with a 2 man midfield. Soon as they came up against 3 men midfields they were exposed.

Poch doesn't seem to adapt tactically. Even when he makes substitutions he doesn't change the system to suit the players. Who on earth brings on Soldado for a 442 then plays inverted wingers????

Poch aint all that I'm afraid, I don't see much change next season.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Hi guys, been almost a year since I made a proper post. Need to get some things off my chest that I think Poch is failing on.

The main thing is the midfield 2. I know alot of people feel Mason isn't good enough but to me its nothing to do with the personnel. Mason is more than a capable player but needs to play in a 3 not a 2. ANY midfielder (unless maybe the exceptional) in modern football can't apply himself 100% in a 2 man midfield as 9/10 they are playing against a 3 and are literally out of position all day long. Man Utd game is a prime example, Mason didn't know when to press or stay. If he stayed the player on the ball would attack at will, if he pressed he'd leave a gap for the midfield runner.

Eriksen. Simply needs to play on the left with more space. He's not THAT great of a dribbler to play out of congested zones. If Hazard and Silva can be allowed cause havoc from the left why can't we groom Eriksen for that role full time.

Lamela. Is a different human being all together let alone footballer when played in the middle. He has no pace no dribbling poise to play wide. If we continue with him on the right id rather we sell him. Through the middle however he is inventive and should score more goals also with his shooting ability.

Overall I can't stand 4231 as its essentially as frail as a 442 and 343. Liverpool were shown to be overrun when playing 343 and quickly went back to their diamond. It was a joke to see people jump on the bandwagon literally wetting their pants over Brendan's "genius 343" cos they beat City and Burnley who also play with a 2 man midfield. Soon as they came up against 3 men midfields they were exposed.

Poch doesn't seem to adapt tactically. Even when he makes substitutions he doesn't change the system to suit the players. Who on earth brings on Soldado for a 442 then plays inverted wingers????

Poch aint all that I'm afraid, I don't see much change next season.

In escence I agree with what your saying

I think we have criminally underused Dembele. His strength is holding the ball (not releasing or shooting). Masons strength is his running on and off the ball and benetlabs seems to be his passing. That's a complimentary 3 there in a 4-3-3 IMO and could work nicely with a combo of Chadli, Erisken or Lamella behind Kane

 

[Raziel]

Hi guys, been almost a year since I made a proper post. Need to get some things off my chest that I think Poch is failing on.

The main thing is the midfield 2. I know alot of people feel Mason isn't good enough but to me its nothing to do with the personnel. Mason is more than a capable player but needs to play in a 3 not a 2. ANY midfielder (unless maybe the exceptional) in modern football can't apply himself 100% in a 2 man midfield as 9/10 they are playing against a 3 and are literally out of position all day long. Man Utd game is a prime example, Mason didn't know when to press or stay. If he stayed the player on the ball would attack at will, if he pressed he'd leave a gap for the midfield runner.

Eriksen. Simply needs to play on the left with more space. He's not THAT great of a dribbler to play out of congested zones. If Hazard and Silva can be allowed cause havoc from the left why can't we groom Eriksen for that role full time.

Lamela. Is a different human being all together let alone footballer when played in the middle. He has no pace no dribbling poise to play wide. If we continue with him on the right id rather we sell him. Through the middle however he is inventive and should score more goals also with his shooting ability.

Overall I can't stand 4231 as its essentially as frail as a 442 and 343. Liverpool were shown to be overrun when playing 343 and quickly went back to their diamond. It was a joke to see people jump on the bandwagon literally wetting their pants over Brendan's "genius 343" cos they beat City and Burnley who also play with a 2 man midfield. Soon as they came up against 3 men midfields they were exposed.

Poch doesn't seem to adapt tactically. Even when he makes substitutions he doesn't change the system to suit the players. Who on earth brings on Soldado for a 442 then plays inverted wingers????

Poch aint all that I'm afraid, I don't see much change next season.

You understand Poch is a system manager, i.e. the players play his way or he doesn't use them?

The issue for Poch, and the hope for something different next season is the idea that we will move on the players that don't suit us/his style and replace them with players who do.

If you are looking for a manager that significantly changes setup from match or opponent to opponent, I don't think you understand who Poch is ..

 

[veron23]

i th

You understand Poch is a system manager, i.e. the players play his way or he doesn't use them?

The issue for Poch, and the hope for something different next season is the idea that we will move on the players that don't suit us/his style and replace them with players who do.

If you are looking for a manager that significantly changes setup from match or opponent to opponent, I don't think you understand who Poch is ..

I think I understand who Poch is, thanks for the insight however.

my point was that even with an open chequebook and Pochs 1st choice 11, in my opinion from watching almost every game live he doesn't understand defensive shape.
every successful team these days has a "number 6" with 2 in front when they don't have the ball. From Bayern to Chelsea to the period Man Utd had a good run would morph into a 4141 when not in possession. We stick with a 2 regardless of what phase we are in and we leave huge gaps and get drawn out of position time and time again.

So even if Poch has his dream 11 next season I still see us being easy to cut open.

It seems he is only has the high press as form of defence which is great when it works but no team can press for 90 minutes all season long so I would like him to have a better understanding of defensive transitions which so far I haven't seen.

calling him a "system manager" is really a lame attempt to feel better about him. He may have a system, doesn't mean he has to be rigid with that system.