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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Legohamster said:
Sissoko has come out and said the diamond isn’t working.

In a more political way.

Moussa Sissoko has admitted that the Spurs players are struggling with Tottenham's new formation.


"We get tired too quickly physically when we play with a diamond midfield"
Click to expand...

Sheeeeet, when even the player many would think such a system is being deployed to cover up his limitations is speaking out against it, you know we are fudged...
 
Legohamster said:
Sissoko has come out and said the diamond isn’t working.

In a more political way.

Moussa Sissoko has admitted that the Spurs players are struggling with Tottenham's new formation.


"We get tired too quickly physically when we play with a diamond midfield"
Click to expand...

This is such good and important news as it means they are talking about it, realising its limitations and hopefully will now put it where it should be, which is in the bin.

Poch’s job could yet be saved now, just a shame it has cost us our place in the league cup, possibly top spot in our CL group (and therefore easier last 16 tie) and ended any unlikely title shot.
 
scaramanga said:
The movement either side of those frames (admittedly from memory) was fairly frantic to get back into shape though wasn't it? I don't recall us being in a shape and adjusting, I recall us scrambling back into shape and chasing them around the pitch.

All with the obvious caveat of the frailties of memory.
Click to expand...

It's a fair question. I made those freeze-frames from the BT Sport highlights on YouTube. See below for timed links to each goal, from the BT highlights:

Goal 1:

I think our main issue is that Rose is diabolically lax in defending a ball over the top. I agree it doesn't help that we then have 3 midfielders rather than 4 tracking back, especially when the most defensive one is Winks, who I think just isn't very good defensively (as illustrated by his positioning and then decision-making for this goal). But it's also a brilliant finish, that I'm sure goes in less than 1 time in 20 on average.

Goal 2:

I don't think this one's down to formation / shape. It starts with a throw-in, Jan gets done by a sublime bit of Lewandoski skill, eventually Ndombele has the chance to clear but fannies around shamefully, and then it's another exquisite finish.

Goal 3:

Can't see much build-up before the freeze frame I shared, but I think it's unambiguous that we're in a fairly steady 4-2-3-1 / 4-4-2 shape. We've got them covered perfectly reasonably IMO, but they just play a little 1-2-3 around Son and Aurier. Even then we'd be fine, except Aurier needlessly slides in and totally misses the ball. Maybe Winks should also be tracking back more aggressively (he finishes less than 5 yards away from Gnabry despite jogging), but that's not a shape issue - that's on Winks. Anyway Aurier is by far the biggest fudge-up here.

Goal 4:

Again the highlights don't go much further back than the freeze-frame, but I think it's totally unambiguous that we're in a steady 4-2-3-1 shape here. Winks just fudges up twice - first by passing it back when he should have turned, and then by turning into trouble the second time. Nothing to do with shape - indeed we're in your favourite shape (I think) with your favourite 'double-pivot'! Aurier again not covering himself in glory, by arguably moving up the pitch too early.

FWIW, the rest of the goals:

Goal 5:

Still in 4-4-2, pressing high up the pitch to try and get something from the game. Aurier just lets Gnabry get in behind him from a hoof from Bayern's own third, then gives up chasing. clam. 100% on him being a terrible macaron of a defender.

Goal 6: https://youtu.be/xFTtxKevOrY?t=7m11s

By this point we've fallen apart, more than anything I think because we were still blindly and hopelessly getting men forward to try and get a goal. Toby gives away a horrific pass, and we have no midfield left to defend the counter. I agree that Poch shouldn't surrender the midfield when trying to get something from the game, but that's a different point to the whole diamond debate.

Goal 7: https://youtu.be/xFTtxKevOrY?t=7m50s

Starts again with us giving the ball away - good old Aurier again, when we had two CMs in line with him and his CB behind him. Then they quickly play in Gnabry, with Rose being far too wide to track his run. Again, not a shape/formation issue.

So overall, I think the goals were mostly cause by individual poor play from Aurier, Rose and Winks to varying degrees. And Ndombele and Toby for one goal each. The only goal where I think our formation/shape is a main contributing factor is their first goal, but I'd argue that even then the poor play from Rose (in particular) and Winks are the bigger offenders.

FWIW, I don't particularly like the diamond. But I just think a lot of the posters on this forum are treating the diamond as the fall-guy for all of our woes, and I just don't think that's remotely fair or accurate in terms of last night's match.
 
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Legohamster said:
Sissoko has come out and said the diamond isn’t working.

In a more political way.

Moussa Sissoko has admitted that the Spurs players are struggling with Tottenham's new formation.


"We get tired too quickly physically when we play with a diamond midfield"
Click to expand...
Where is this quote from?

It is pretty obvious though. The three deeper players in the diamond, and especially the wide players of those three, have to cover an awful lot of space in this formation. We're pretty much always at least one man short.
 
AdamB said:
Was just about to post that as well - quote is in here

https://www.espn.com/soccer/tottenh...-grow-as-players-question-pochettinos-tactics

If the players dont like it then he HAS to change it.

I want the real Poch back, and the only way of getting that is if he changes his system
Click to expand...

fudging hell

"Sources have told ESPN FC that some senior players are not happy with the tactical systems, starting with the diamond midfield 4-3-1-2, recently used by Pochettino. It enables Son Heung-Min and Harry Kane to play together up front but the midfield is more exposed, as are the flanks, and Spurs have only kept two clean sheets this season (against Crystal Palace and Colchester) in 10 matches in all competitions.

Then there is the flat 4-4-2, also used this season, which left Tottenham too weak in central midfield, as we saw against Arsenal. Against Bayern, Pochettino started with a 4-3-1-2 and then moved to a 4-4-2 after 30 minutes when his team started to struggle. Neither worked. "We get tired too quickly physically when we play with a diamond midfield," Moussa Sissoko admitted on French TV channel RMC Sport on Tuesday night.

The players also don't understand why Pochettino has told them to dial back the pressing, a tactic that was a success last season."
 
Modric THFC said:
fudging hell

"Sources have told ESPN FC that some senior players are not happy with the tactical systems, starting with the diamond midfield 4-3-1-2, recently used by Pochettino. It enables Son Heung-Min and Harry Kane to play together up front but the midfield is more exposed, as are the flanks, and Spurs have only kept two clean sheets this season (against Crystal Palace and Colchester) in 10 matches in all competitions.

Then there is the flat 4-4-2, also used this season, which left Tottenham too weak in central midfield, as we saw against Arsenal. Against Bayern, Pochettino started with a 4-3-1-2 and then moved to a 4-4-2 after 30 minutes when his team started to struggle. Neither worked. "We get tired too quickly physically when we play with a diamond midfield," Moussa Sissoko admitted on French TV channel RMC Sport on Tuesday night.

The players also don't understand why Pochettino has told them to dial back the pressing, a tactic that was a success last season."
Click to expand...

IF (IF IF IF) that’s true he’s lost the changing room.

That makes it harder to come back from
 
Modric THFC said:
fudging hell

"Sources have told ESPN FC that some senior players are not happy with the tactical systems, starting with the diamond midfield 4-3-1-2, recently used by Pochettino. It enables Son Heung-Min and Harry Kane to play together up front but the midfield is more exposed, as are the flanks, and Spurs have only kept two clean sheets this season (against Crystal Palace and Colchester) in 10 matches in all competitions.

Then there is the flat 4-4-2, also used this season, which left Tottenham too weak in central midfield, as we saw against Arsenal. Against Bayern, Pochettino started with a 4-3-1-2 and then moved to a 4-4-2 after 30 minutes when his team started to struggle. Neither worked. "We get tired too quickly physically when we play with a diamond midfield," Moussa Sissoko admitted on French TV channel RMC Sport on Tuesday night.

The players also don't understand why Pochettino has told them to dial back the pressing, a tactic that was a success last season."
Click to expand...
Hope it's true. If Pochettino can't see it himself someone has to tell him.

I don't see it as the players being unwilling to play for Pochettino, just that they want us to play differently, because the current stuff isn't working.

Spot on from Sissoko. Player manager deal?
Legohamster said:
IF (IF IF IF) that’s true he’s lost the changing room.

That makes it harder to come back from
Click to expand...
Depends how he responds.
 
I just literally read this article on The Athletic, it’s behind a subscription but will post a link anyway, the story is about Mourinho and his 09/10 Inter team, its saying how he mainly played two formations that year a 4312 and 4231, it’s a long read but one paragraph instantly jumped out at me which is this,

“At times, Mourinho’s Inter were thrilling. Their 4-3-1-2 was the more aggressive system, with Mourinho often switching to the 4-2-3-1 immediately after his side had scored, to shut down the opposition full-backs.”

https://theathletic.com/1246690/201...-success-ahead-of-entertainment/?redirected=1
 
If he plays the diamond vs the seagulls his song will probably be sung in the stands with the word ‘magic’ swapped out for ‘tragic’...

Fair play to Sissoko...the last week has been humiliating for the players and the fans, he’s only saying what everyone on this planet can see, other than Mopo and his coaching staff!
 
elltrev said:
Click to expand...
Thanks Trevor, good post.
For me I just see Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position, Aurier out of position,
 
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