Marcotti article in Wall st Journal - spurs & Ajax

[JerusalemMan]

Well you would, wouldn't you!

=D>

 

[jimmyb]

I love the JPost article.

I'm guessing that you wrote it?

Good man, if so!

Perhaps someone could forward it to James Lawton. He's so full of a sense of his own importance and moral rectitude - on the basis of zero research into the subject (plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose as far as our football hacks are concerned, sadly) - that he could do with having his his ego rightly deflated.

 

[Gutter Boy]

This is the best thing ever written on th subject: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Emancipation-Through-Muscles-Sports-Europe/dp/0803213557

 

[Mike_T]

Hate Marcotti, sweaty fat Chelsea supporter who got his big break on Talk Sport.
Says it all really.

 

[thfcsteff]

Fair enough but I've heard him answer questions and participate in debate over players and issues, whereby he has to speak on the spot and he has done in an impressive manner.

He sounds more impressive than the sum of his knowledge is IMO...of course yes, knows some stuff for sure. But I have found him to be off-base on most things.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Hate Marcotti, sweaty fat Chelsea supporter who got his big break on Talk Sport.
Says it all really.

His book on Capello is worth reading. His journalism though isn't great. I think the more verbose format suits him better.

 

[jts1882]

Interesting article from Israel's "Jerusalem Post"...

The ‘Yid’ Army

By DAVID NEWMAN

The British press has been taken up with the issue of racism and anti-Semitism in sport during the past few weeks.

Most of the discussion has focused on the treatment of black players. But this past week, a new issue has re-emerged, concerning the use of what has been dubbed the “Y word” by supporters of the North London football club Tottenham Hotspur.

Traditionally known for its large Jewish support, supporters of the club have, over the years, affectionately labeled themselves as the “Tottenham Yids.” It is not uncommon for thirty thousand fans to sing the phrase “yiddo” or “yid army” following the scoring of a goal or in appreciation of a specific player or manager. Neither is it uncommon for the Jewish fans of the club to join in the singing, seeing this as a term of self-endearment rather than hatred or anti-Semitism.

The latest attempt to highlight the issue has not come from representatives of the Jewish community such as the Board of Deputies, the Jewish Leadership Council or the Community Security Trust. This time, it has been the chairman of the Black Lawyers Association (BLA), Peter Herbert, who has taken up the fight on behalf of the “beleaguered Yids.”

An article in last week’s Daily Telegraph by James Lawton argued that the use of the word is indefensible, while Frank Furedi, writing in The Independent, argued that the attempt to ban the use of the term was no more than a sanctimonious moral crusade and an exercise in political correctness. This follows on a video which was made last year, starring Jewish comedian David Baddiel, which came out strongly against the use of the word by Tottenham supporters.

At one point the club, whose owners and chairman are themselves Jewish, were in favor of police attempts to ban the use of the word at games. But following protestations on behalf of the fans, this policy was dropped and both the club and the police have accepted that the use of the term by the Tottenham fans is not offensive.

In response, Tottenham fans have produced T-shirts, flags and other sportswear with the phrase “I am a proud Tottenham Yid” emblazoned on the front, often accompanied with the Magen David. It is not uncommon these days to see people who are identifiably Jewish at games, sporting beards and wearing kippot quite openly, behavior which would have been deemed much more dangerous back in the 1970s and 1980s, when hooliganism and racism was a much greater problem within British sport in general, and football in particular.

Historically, Tottenham was the team in North London – home to 80 percent of the Anglo Jewish community – which attracted the Jewish supporters, then living in the East End of London and finding transportation links to this ground easier than to their hated rivals, Arsenal. Today, the Jewish support for football in London is shared equally between the two clubs and it is often the major topic of discussion for people attending synagogue on a Shabbat morning, many of whom will switch from the religion of GHod to the religion of sport, as they rush to get to the game on time at either White Hart Lane (Tottenham) or the Emirates Stadium (Arsenal) following the end of Shabbat morning services.

In the past this duplicate Shabbat activity (for all except for the Orthodox) gave rise to the famous chant of “Does your rabbi know where you are?” – a chant which was heard in Tel Aviv three years ago when Tottenham played Hapoel Tel Aviv. Among the spectators were many North London yeshiva students who were studying at the time in Israel and who jokingly sang the song. It has more recently been used as the title of a book, published just last month, by UK Jewish sports columnist Anthony Clavane on the topic of Jewish support of British football teams, past and present.

Although the football authorities in the UK probably have one of the best records in the world in their campaign to ban racism from sport, the Black Lawyers Society argue that it is still not stringent enough. This has been highlighted in recent cases involving prominent soccer players, such as Luiz Suares from Liverpool and John Terry from Chelsea, both of whom were found guilty of mouthing racist remarks at their opponents, while charges of racism have also been leveled against a leading football referee, Mark Clattenberg, and are presently being investigated.

Jews have always been prominent in the fight against racism and in support of civil rights and ethnic minorities.

But the same cannot always be said for the leaders of the Black community in combating anti-Semitism. It is not clear what motives lie behind this sudden condemnation of the use of the Y-word by the Black Lawyers Society, other than an attempt to deflect the criticism from where it really belongs, the continued racism against black citizens and sports players, which, so it would appear, it still endemic within certain parts of British society.

Ironically, the most popular “yid” at Tottenham right now is a black player, Jermaine Defoe, who has hit top form and scored many goals in recent weeks. But that is not really surprising given the fact that black players are prominent among all teams in the UK, while Jewish football players are few and far between – they tend to support and own the teams, but playing football (or any other sport) is not really considered a proper profession for a Jewish boy.

The comparison is made between the use of the Y word and the “N” (nigger) or the “W” (wog) word as a term of defamation. But while the latter are always used in a deprecatory fashion, this is not always the case with the term “yid.” Many Jews use it as part of their daily speech, the “Jewish talk” which is a mixture of English (or any local language) and a smattering of Yiddish expressions. Imagine a religious Jew being arrested on the charge of using a racist term, when all he has done is to ask, quite politely, whether the guest or the stranger is a yid (is he Jewish?).

But equally, when used by fans of other teams to define Tottenham, the use of the term “yid,” is often defamatory and racist. When accompanied by hissing noises to represent the gas of the gas chambers, this is blatant anti- Semitism of the worst kind. When a Jew walking down the street is confronted by a racist who calls him a “dirty yid” this is a clear example of racism and anti-Semitism.

Will the use of such anti-Semitic terminologies disappear as the result of an attempt to have a legitimate word banned altogether? It is highly unlikely and it us even possible that the use of the term in an affectionate manner will eventually lead to it becoming neutralized in wider society, rather than being used by the anti-Semites and the racists.

Anti-Semitism is a real and renaissant problem in parts of Europe. It has to be combated in every possible way, both by community representatives and by the police authorities. But perhaps it would be better if the BLA were to expend its energies in combating racism and anti-Semitism in the right places, rather than diverting the issue away from its real roots. The ongoing legal action against the University Teachers Union in the UK for expressions of anti-Semitism is a case in point. Well meaning sports fans, having a joke at their own team’s expense, shouldn’t be made the spacegoats.

The writer is dean of the Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences at Ben Gurion University. He retains his strong support of Tottenham Hotspur despite living in Israel for 30 years.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=291536

This is an excellent article. I hadn't realised Yid was used regularly by religious Jewish people. One of the arguments used to criticise the Spurs use is that Jewish people don't use the term.

As he rightly points out there is real anti-semitism that is a serious problem and this is not it. Focusing on the Spurs chant and placing it on the same moral level as the Chelses fans hissing (Baddiel) distracts from the real problem, in the same way the baseless accusations on racist distract from the real fight. The Society of Black Herberts are on the wrong side of both.

 

[jts1882]

I came on here this morning and expected a thread expressing outrage on the plans of the club to meet with the Met and Kick It Out to discuss how to deal with anti-semitism. I heard a report on the sports section of the news on the BBC World Service which gave the clear impression that the club where acting against anti-semitism by Spurs fans.

The article on the BBC website gives a far different impression about the purpose for the meeting.

Tottenham Hotspur to meet police and Kick It Out officials

16 November 2012 Last updated at 07:50

Tottenham Hotspur officials are to meet Metropolitan Police officials to discuss how to tackle anti-Semitism.

Representatives of anti-racism group Kick It Out will also be present at next week's meeting.

However Spurs said the meeting was not specifically about Tottenham fans' reference to themselves as "Yid Army".

Peter Herbert, who chairs the Society of Black Lawyers (SBL), had said he would report the club to police over the chant if no action was taken.

Peter Lawyer, chairman of the Society of Black Herberts

"If the fans wish to continue, if Tottenham wishes to continue, then we will use every means at our disposal to make sure they do get the message which many in the Jewish community have already told us is unacceptable."

But Spurs said the meeting was about how to collectively tackle anti-Semitism, rather than a specific discussion about the chant, which is a reference to the club's Jewish supporters

A statement on Tottenham's website read: "As part of our desire for a wider debate and action on how to collectively eradicate anti-Semitism from our footballing community, the club has arranged to meet with Kick It Out and the Metropolitan Police next week in order to discuss measures to be taken both inside and outside stadia."

Tottenham have encouraged their fans to take part in a Kick It Out survey concerning everything to do with the debate around discrimination in football.

"A key component for this debate is for us to understand the views of the fans in relation to discrimination in sport," the statement added.

"We are therefore delighted to support Kick It Out as they ask supporters to have their say in the biggest fans' consultation on tackling discrimination in football.

"The survey covers a range of topics from how to improve reporting of abusive behaviour and stewarding in stadiums, to combating abusive behaviour on social media."

The findings will be used to form a blueprint for football authorities in tackling discrimination in the game.

Speaking last week, Herbert said it was "unacceptable" for Tottenham fans to use the y-word, which can often be seen on flags and banners at the ground. He set a 20 November deadline for action, or he would go to the police.

"Fans are there to watch football and we are deeply saddened that fans are more concerned with what they chant than, in a sense, the game they are supposed to be watching," said Herbert.

"If the fans wish to continue, if Tottenham wishes to continue, then we will use every means at our disposal to make sure they do get the message which many in the Jewish community have already told us is unacceptable."

I think this is a good move by the club, especially inviting Kick It Out and not Herbert's racism vehicle.

 

[iggyfog]

There was a great article in the huffington post today on the subject - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/andrew-gold/spurs-tottenham_b_2134142.html?

Why Spurs Fans Must Never Stop Singing The Y-Word - Andrew Gold


My earliest football-related memory takes me back to Stamford Bridge somewhere in the mid-nineties. Yet the action on the pitch remains to me as hazy as the date, score or any other facts arising from the game. All I can really gather in my mind is an interminable whistling from the fans surrounding me. I knew even then, at the age of 8 or 9, what it denoted and to this day I don't recall feeling as alienated, as a British Jew, as I did then.

It was the hiss of the gas chambers.

You can only imagine what other hate filled slurs were screamed from the terraces that day, though my dad and I didn't stay long.

Since then, I've been fortunate and have mixed in circles where racism rarely features. A while ago at university, a friend of a friend who came to stay for the weekend repeatedly referred to me as Shylock, Shakespeare's literary depiction of a miserly Jew. Quite imaginative, yes, but I wondered if he would dare to conjure up an equivalent black or Muslim literary caricature in similar circumstances.

Over the years, Tottenham Hotspur FC has built up a reputation as a Jewish club. This is because the North London area is relatively densely populated by Jews and many of the club's owners, including current chief Daniel Levy, are Jewish. Though Arsenal also hold links to the faith, it is not quite so prevalent, perhaps because their roots lie in Woolwich.

In a moving response to anti-Semitic chants from rival fans, the Spurs faithful, most of whom are not Jewish, adopted the banner Yid Army. Rather than disassociate themselves from the religion, they embraced it. But now politically correct censors are lurking with their rule books as comedian David Baddiel and Peter Herbert of the Society of Black Lawyers intend to make the chant illegal.

Baddiel rightly questions whether a Brixton-based club would allow their fans to chant the N-word at matches.

But there are key differences. The N-word evokes images of slavery which spanned centuries and the term itself suggests black people are inferior. Yid is a neutral term for Jew that depends entirely on intent. Baddiel said the test is to walk up to a Jewish person outside of football and shout 'Yid' in his face and see how he reacts. But if you bellowed 'Jew', 'Muslim' or 'Christian' at somebody you didn't know, it would be equally inflammatory, though these are not inherently offensive terms.

At a time when free speech is particularly vulnerable and people are being arrested for daft or even menacing expressions of opinion such as burning a poppy, do we really want to start banning words without really taking into consideration their intent and etymology just because it upsets certain people?

One of the champions of free speech, Salmon Rushdie, said: "There is no right in the world not to be offended. That right simply doesn't exist. In a free society, an open society, people have strong opinions, and these opinions very often clash. In a democracy, we have to learn to deal with this."

Many people have been offended by Baddiel's comedy routine over the years, but that does not mean he should be gagged. Likewise, while Spurs' recital of Yid may cause offence to a self-righteous minority, we absolutely cannot as a society keep resorting to the censors, particularly when intent is decent.

The most poignant stance on the matter came from a blog by Lee Taylor, a Spurs fan brought up in Hackney in the 70s who got caught up in racism as a kid. He became a skinhead and "did all the things you're supposed to do - Union Jack badges, red laces in your boots and hanging around street corners looking aggressive to anyone different to you".

But when Lee attended his first ever Tottenham game, he got talking to a black boy from his school. They soon became best friends, travelling up and down the country to watch games together.

He said: "We were no longer black or white - we were yids.

"We became the Yid Army, standing up for the Jewish community who support our team.

"We wear that badge with pride. There is nothing wrong in being Jewish and the 36,000 people alongside me agree.

"Your hissing sounds will not intimidate me as I have the rest of the Yid Army by my side!"

What better tonic for the startled and isolated 8-year-old child at Stamford Bridge, and for the multitude of others who have been made to feel insignificant because of who they are? For Spurs fans, Yid is not synonymous with Jew. It incorporates all minorities and makes Tottenham unique as the outstanding multicultural, accepting club in Europe.

The most common chant of the past decade at White Hart Lane concerns a devout Christian black man: 'Jermaine Defoe, he's a Yiddo'. With all the racial issues in football of late, this message should be reinforced, not condemned.

The most worrying assertion by Baddiel is that the use of Yid by Spurs fans incites followers of other clubs to be racist. For me, that is like saying black people should not play football as it only encourages macarons to make monkey signs at them, as we've seen in recent weeks. If we let racists take away our emblem of togetherness, then they've won.

Surely then the comedian and Peter Herbert should focus on bigots with intent to hurt rather than a touching adoption of a minority symbol as a badge of honour.

As Lee puts it, "we are all as one, one community, we are Yids together".

 

[Rorschach]

Interesting article from Israel's "Jerusalem Post"...

The ‘Yid’ Army

By DAVID NEWMAN

The British press has been taken up with the issue of racism and anti-Semitism in sport during the past few weeks.

Most of the discussion has focused on the treatment of black players. But this past week, a new issue has re-emerged, concerning the use of what has been dubbed the “Y word” by supporters of the North London football club Tottenham Hotspur.

Traditionally known for its large Jewish support, supporters of the club have, over the years, affectionately labeled themselves as the “Tottenham Yids.” It is not uncommon for thirty thousand fans to sing the phrase “yiddo” or “yid army” following the scoring of a goal or in appreciation of a specific player or manager. Neither is it uncommon for the Jewish fans of the club to join in the singing, seeing this as a term of self-endearment rather than hatred or anti-Semitism.

The latest attempt to highlight the issue has not come from representatives of the Jewish community such as the Board of Deputies, the Jewish Leadership Council or the Community Security Trust. This time, it has been the chairman of the Black Lawyers Association (BLA), Peter Herbert, who has taken up the fight on behalf of the “beleaguered Yids.”

An article in last week’s Daily Telegraph by James Lawton argued that the use of the word is indefensible, while Frank Furedi, writing in The Independent, argued that the attempt to ban the use of the term was no more than a sanctimonious moral crusade and an exercise in political correctness. This follows on a video which was made last year, starring Jewish comedian David Baddiel, which came out strongly against the use of the word by Tottenham supporters.

At one point the club, whose owners and chairman are themselves Jewish, were in favor of police attempts to ban the use of the word at games. But following protestations on behalf of the fans, this policy was dropped and both the club and the police have accepted that the use of the term by the Tottenham fans is not offensive.

In response, Tottenham fans have produced T-shirts, flags and other sportswear with the phrase “I am a proud Tottenham Yid” emblazoned on the front, often accompanied with the Magen David. It is not uncommon these days to see people who are identifiably Jewish at games, sporting beards and wearing kippot quite openly, behavior which would have been deemed much more dangerous back in the 1970s and 1980s, when hooliganism and racism was a much greater problem within British sport in general, and football in particular.

Historically, Tottenham was the team in North London – home to 80 percent of the Anglo Jewish community – which attracted the Jewish supporters, then living in the East End of London and finding transportation links to this ground easier than to their hated rivals, Arsenal. Today, the Jewish support for football in London is shared equally between the two clubs and it is often the major topic of discussion for people attending synagogue on a Shabbat morning, many of whom will switch from the religion of GHod to the religion of sport, as they rush to get to the game on time at either White Hart Lane (Tottenham) or the Emirates Stadium (Arsenal) following the end of Shabbat morning services.

In the past this duplicate Shabbat activity (for all except for the Orthodox) gave rise to the famous chant of “Does your rabbi know where you are?” – a chant which was heard in Tel Aviv three years ago when Tottenham played Hapoel Tel Aviv. Among the spectators were many North London yeshiva students who were studying at the time in Israel and who jokingly sang the song. It has more recently been used as the title of a book, published just last month, by UK Jewish sports columnist Anthony Clavane on the topic of Jewish support of British football teams, past and present.

Although the football authorities in the UK probably have one of the best records in the world in their campaign to ban racism from sport, the Black Lawyers Society argue that it is still not stringent enough. This has been highlighted in recent cases involving prominent soccer players, such as Luiz Suares from Liverpool and John Terry from Chelsea, both of whom were found guilty of mouthing racist remarks at their opponents, while charges of racism have also been leveled against a leading football referee, Mark Clattenberg, and are presently being investigated.

Jews have always been prominent in the fight against racism and in support of civil rights and ethnic minorities.

But the same cannot always be said for the leaders of the Black community in combating anti-Semitism. It is not clear what motives lie behind this sudden condemnation of the use of the Y-word by the Black Lawyers Society, other than an attempt to deflect the criticism from where it really belongs, the continued racism against black citizens and sports players, which, so it would appear, it still endemic within certain parts of British society.

Ironically, the most popular “yid” at Tottenham right now is a black player, Jermaine Defoe, who has hit top form and scored many goals in recent weeks. But that is not really surprising given the fact that black players are prominent among all teams in the UK, while Jewish football players are few and far between – they tend to support and own the teams, but playing football (or any other sport) is not really considered a proper profession for a Jewish boy.

The comparison is made between the use of the Y word and the “N” (nigger) or the “W” (wog) word as a term of defamation. But while the latter are always used in a deprecatory fashion, this is not always the case with the term “yid.” Many Jews use it as part of their daily speech, the “Jewish talk” which is a mixture of English (or any local language) and a smattering of Yiddish expressions. Imagine a religious Jew being arrested on the charge of using a racist term, when all he has done is to ask, quite politely, whether the guest or the stranger is a yid (is he Jewish?).

But equally, when used by fans of other teams to define Tottenham, the use of the term “yid,” is often defamatory and racist. When accompanied by hissing noises to represent the gas of the gas chambers, this is blatant anti- Semitism of the worst kind. When a Jew walking down the street is confronted by a racist who calls him a “dirty yid” this is a clear example of racism and anti-Semitism.

Will the use of such anti-Semitic terminologies disappear as the result of an attempt to have a legitimate word banned altogether? It is highly unlikely and it us even possible that the use of the term in an affectionate manner will eventually lead to it becoming neutralized in wider society, rather than being used by the anti-Semites and the racists.

Anti-Semitism is a real and renaissant problem in parts of Europe. It has to be combated in every possible way, both by community representatives and by the police authorities. But perhaps it would be better if the BLA were to expend its energies in combating racism and anti-Semitism in the right places, rather than diverting the issue away from its real roots. The ongoing legal action against the University Teachers Union in the UK for expressions of anti-Semitism is a case in point. Well meaning sports fans, having a joke at their own team’s expense, shouldn’t be made the spacegoats.

The writer is dean of the Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences at Ben Gurion University. He retains his strong support of Tottenham Hotspur despite living in Israel for 30 years.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=291536

I just got around to reading this and I have to echo previous positive comments on this article. Well written and more importantly informed of the real context as to the use of the word.

 

[Park Lane James]

Awful article, nowhere does he mention about the abuse from the 60s and 70s

 

[jimmyb]

Awful article, nowhere does he mention about the abuse from the 60s and 70s

I presume that you're referring to Marcotti's article and not the two excellent articles also posted in this thread that are written from a Jewish perspective?

 

[Park Lane James]

I presume that you're referring to Marcotti's article and not the two excellent articles also posted in this thread that are written from a Jewish perspective?

Yep, the Marcotti article in the Wall St. Journal. The one by David Newman is balanced and very well thought out

 

[monkeybarry]

I came on here this morning and expected a thread expressing outrage on the plans of the club to meet with the Met and Kick It Out to discuss how to deal with anti-semitism. I heard a report on the sports section of the news on the BBC World Service which gave the clear impression that the club where acting against anti-semitism by Spurs fans.

The article on the BBC website gives a far different impression about the purpose for the meeting.




I think this is a good move by the club, especially inviting Kick It Out and not Herbert's racism vehicle.

totally agree - good move the club.

the message is almost (indirectly) - "we will work with you to stop anti-semiticism. and when it has been stopped, THEN our fans can stop signing yid army, as there will no longer to anything to defend"

(albeit there will be a position to uphold and of course there is the debate over the current dual meaning of yid - but they are academic as the first step, completely stopping anti semiticsm, will never happen)

good move by the club - taking the moral high ground

 

[billyiddo]

The most poignant stance on the matter came from a blog by Lee Taylor, a Spurs fan brought up in Hackney in the 70s who got caught up in racism as a kid. He became a skinhead and "did all the things you're supposed to do - Union Jack badges, red laces in your boots and hanging around street corners looking aggressive to anyone different to you".

But when Lee attended his first ever Tottenham game, he got talking to a black boy from his school. They soon became best friends, travelling up and down the country to watch games together.

He said: "We were no longer black or white - we were yids.

"We became the Yid Army, standing up for the Jewish community who support our team.

"We wear that badge with pride. There is nothing wrong in being Jewish and the 36,000 people alongside me agree.

"Your hissing sounds will not intimidate me as I have the rest of the Yid Army by my side!"

What better tonic for the startled and isolated 8-year-old child at Stamford Bridge, and for the multitude of others who have been made to feel insignificant because of who they are? For Spurs fans, Yid is not synonymous with Jew. It incorporates all minorities and makes Tottenham unique as the outstanding multicultural, accepting club in Europe.

The most common chant of the past decade at White Hart Lane concerns a devout Christian black man: 'Jermaine Defoe, he's a Yiddo'. With all the racial issues in football of late, this message should be reinforced, not condemned.

The most worrying assertion by Baddiel is that the use of Yid by Spurs fans incites followers of other clubs to be racist. For me, that is like saying black people should not play football as it only encourages macarons to make monkey signs at them, as we've seen in recent weeks. If we let racists take away our emblem of togetherness, then they've won.

Surely then the comedian and Peter Herbert should focus on bigots with intent to hurt rather than a touching adoption of a minority symbol as a badge of honour.

As Lee puts it, "we are all as one, one community, we are Yids together".

this sort of brick makes me so proud to be a Spurs fan

 

[Park Lane James]

For sure, it's great that we all come together under one banner and support the team/players through it. While teams like Chelsea and West Ham have their National Front pasts, we are here as one of the most accepting clubs in the world to different races, religions etc. How it should be.

It's great to see that a number of prominent journalists are picking up on the 'issue' - we have never used the term in an offensive way like the other lot. The use of the word 'Yid' is for solidarity in the face of menace and togetherness with your common man.

How a Jewish man like Baddiel finds it hard to distinguish between our use of the word and singing about Auscwitz, I will never know.

 

[jts1882]

How a Jewish man like Baddiel finds it hard to distinguish between our use of the word and singing about Auscwitz, I will never know.

He's a Chelsea fan.

 

[Park Lane James]

He's a Chelsea fan.

Putting his football team ahead of his faith is small time. What a clown.