Lucas Bergvall

[monkeybarry]

It would shock me to be honest (other than in an emergency, injury situations). He has many of the attributes, but it's a rather specialist role he has little to no experience playing in. One that most players need time and experience in to play well in.

Bentancur at his best is a fantastic player. Yet to see him he a fantastic 6. He too has a lot of the attributes to play there technically and physically. But in that role you need consistency in decision making and awareness, on the ball and defensively. Discipline and positioning along with some tempo setting/playmaking qualities. Perhaps he can get there, he's not had that much time to grow into a role like that. But he's doesn't seem a natural fit to the role so far.

It's a weird mental relic from Centre Halves would just take the ball and cut the striker in half.
We've been trying to convert any CB that can pass a ball 15 yards into DMs for years - and mostly ever since Kaboul.

Ledders played there a few times before that too (of course he was excellent at it)

 

[SteveAWOL]

Not bad company to keep!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1877138317684211805

 

[braineclipse]

It's a weird mental relic from Centre Halves would just take the ball and cut the striker in half.
We've been trying to convert any CB that can pass a ball 15 yards into DMs for years - and mostly ever since Kaboul.

Ledders played there a few times before that too (of course he was excellent at it)

I may of course be guilty of overrariting how important ball playing ability and technical quality is in defenders and centre backs. But I think some people underrate it.

 

[braineclipse]

i think both Bergvall and Gray would do well as a double midfield pivot. Gray is naturally more conservative and while Bergvall has vision and passing range, today we saw that he has a great engine on him and a natural attacking instinct.

Absolutely.

I'm not sure if Gray is naturally more conservative or if he's playing to what the role requires. How conservative would he be playing as an 8? Not sure. But fully agreed that a double pivot like that, or a 6-8-10 system with Bergvall as the 8 could be great at some point.

Two players with sky high potential.

 

[Kompakted]

It's worth noting with Gray that everyone says he's a midfielder, but he's been playing right-back for Leeds and CB for us. It's incredible that he's played as well as he has done in those roles as an 18 year old. Ali Gold on YouTube compared him to Steven Gerrard (who when he first broke through played right back for Liverpool or a variety of positions as a utility player). Gold thought that he's like Gerrard in that he's such a good player that you can just put him in any position and he'll be able to give you a 7/10.

 

[Muttley]

Absolutely.

I'm not sure if Gray is naturally more conservative or if he's playing to what the role requires. How conservative would he be playing as an 8? Not sure. But fully agreed that a double pivot like that, or a 6-8-10 system with Bergvall as the 8 could be great at some point.

Two players with sky high potential.

There were a couple of passes that Gray made last night that suggested what we all have to look forward to if he moves into the 6 role. Think one was even with his left foot.

I just hope we don't overuse him at a young age. He's come to Spurs off the back of a 50 game season at Leeds as a 17 year old.

 

[braineclipse]

There were a couple of passes that Gray made last night that suggested what we all have to look forward to if he moves into the 6 role. Think one was even with his left foot.

I just hope we don't overuse him at a young age. He's come to Spurs off the back of a 50 game season at Leeds as a 17 year old.

The one posted in his thread after stepping out of our box when crowded was fantastic (the whole move including the pass).

Looks good and comfortable on the left too. Several "clearances" on his left that he made into useful balls rather than just a clearance. Seems to trust his ball striking on his left too, not concerned about getting "trapped" in a situation where he has to use his left. Great as it opens up a lot more options for him.

Agreed about not overusing him. Wouldn't mind if he got some games on the bench when we get some centre backs back.

 

[braineclipse]

Back to Bergvall.

Was a post by someone somewhere on here about younger players and the step up. And how the poster thought Bergvall was just on the right side of that line of being ready now.

Thought of that when thinking about the potential red and then the goal. Fine margins, but also the step up and what's required. In time we need him to not make that challenge on a yellow, even when tired and pumped up he needs to be calm enough. But he also has the quality to make that run, find that space and execute that finish. Just ready, but still a risk.

Hopefully this experience will push him a bit further towards the definitely redy now side.

 

[Kompakted]

Back to Bergvall.

Was a post by someone somewhere on here about younger players and the step up. And how the poster thought Bergvall was just on the right side of that line of being ready now.

Thought of that when thinking about the potential red and then the goal. Fine margins, but also the step up and what's required. In time we need him to not make that challenge on a yellow, even when tired and pumped up he needs to be calm enough. But he also has the quality to make that run, find that space and execute that finish. Just ready, but still a risk.

Hopefully this experience will push him a bit further towards the definitely redy now side.

Will he grow out of that having that needle and do we want him to? Thinking about how we were aggressive in the best poch years and had players like Lamela that were almost always on the line with "sportsmanlike" behaviour to Jose telling everyone the team had gotten too nice. I always feel like the best midfielders are always pushing the boundaries of what the ref will tolerate. Look at Joelinton for Saudi Sportswashing Machine the other day. The midfield is a battle in the PL and you need to earn the right to play in this league. Far more comfortable with Bergvall throwing his weight around and maybe getting sent off the odd time rather than a player that basically hides away from that sort of stuff.

 

[braineclipse]

Will he grow out of that having that needle and do we want him to? Thinking about how we were aggressive in the best poch years and had players like Lamela that were almost always on the line with "sportsmanlike" behaviour to Jose telling everyone the team had gotten too nice. I always feel like the best midfielders are always pushing the boundaries of what the ref will tolerate. Look at Joelinton for Saudi Sportswashing Machine the other day.

That's part of that step up and part of what makes it difficult. Having that aggression, pushing the lines while still not getting yourself needlessly booked or sent off. Doing that when tired, when pumped up, fighting for the team. It takes time. But no, definitely don't want to lose the aggression.

 

[fernadez]

Other plus side is we'll really see what Maddison is about now. It's all well having fluctuating performances when there is nobody else.

But someone stepping up a perfoming asks a different question. Considering that Kulu is first choice in the #10, he's gotta a battle on to be starting games again.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

i think both Bergvall and Gray would do well as a double midfield pivot. Gray is naturally more conservative and while Bergvall has vision and passing range, today we saw that he has a great engine on him and a natural attacking instinct.

Gray can pass too
Really really well

 

[Muttley]

That's part of that step up and part of what makes it difficult. Having that aggression, pushing the lines while still not getting yourself needlessly booked or sent off. Doing that when tired, when pumped up, fighting for the team. It takes time. But no, definitely don't want to lose the aggression.

As you wrote that, I was thinking about Bruno Fernandes. In this league you can go a long time getting away with everything. You get the credit for knowing how to stay on the pitch for 90 mins and you are called "mature". Then as a 30 year old you find yourself on 3 red cards by Xmas in a single season.

This could easily happen to Joelinton as well, and I hope VVD gets what is coming his way.

It's going to be really tough for a kid like Bergval to navigate this journey in a period where we see such inconsistencies with the officials.

 

[braineclipse]

As you wrote that, I was thinking about Bruno Fernandes. In this league you can go a long time getting away with everything. You get the credit for knowing how to stay on the pitch for 90 mins and you are called "mature". Then as a 30 year old you find yourself on 3 red cards by Xmas in a single season.

This could easily happen to Joelinton as well, and I hope VVD gets what is coming his way.

It's going to be really tough for a kid like Bergval to navigate this journey in a period where we see such inconsistencies with the officials.

For sure that can happen even with the most experienced players. But the risk is usually higher with those younger players and they have to work on getting that balance between aggression and composure right in a new and more difficult environment.

I think he'll figure that out just fine, but may take some more time.

So happy he's our player. Fantastic talent and already at 18 a very good player.

 

[harr1984]

Back to Bergvall.

Was a post by someone somewhere on here about younger players and the step up. And how the poster thought Bergvall was just on the right side of that line of being ready now.

Thought of that when thinking about the potential red and then the goal. Fine margins, but also the step up and what's required. In time we need him to not make that challenge on a yellow, even when tired and pumped up he needs to be calm enough. But he also has the quality to make that run, find that space and execute that finish. Just ready, but still a risk.

Hopefully this experience will push him a bit further towards the definitely redy now side.

Pretty sure that poster was @Finney Is Back

Lets not forget this isn't the first time he almost got sent off - against Rangers the ref went to book him until he realised he already had and decided not to. And whilst his first yellow card wasn't merited against Liverpool, he knew he had a yellow card so needs to be careful. It's too early to suggest a pattern is emerging but he clearly isn't shy in terms of getting stuck in and perhaps he needs to learn to temper his youthful exuberance on occasions. Like I said in the match thread, he certainly looks the part.....

 

[Finney Is Back]

Back to Bergvall.

Was a post by someone somewhere on here about younger players and the step up. And how the poster thought Bergvall was just on the right side of that line of being ready now.

Thought of that when thinking about the potential red and then the goal. Fine margins, but also the step up and what's required. In time we need him to not make that challenge on a yellow, even when tired and pumped up he needs to be calm enough. But he also has the quality to make that run, find that space and execute that finish. Just ready, but still a risk.

Hopefully this experience will push him a bit further towards the definitely redy now side.

T'was me. When playing youngsters you just have to be realistic enough to take the rough with the smooth. If Bergvall had been red carded last night then we have to just take that on the chin as part of him learning the game. It is the same with Gray, I notice he gets caught a yard behind the defensive line a few times every game. Also I sometimes see Sarr go and press a player up field where he has little chance of winning the ball leaving us wide open in the centre and two simple passes away from conceding a high value chance, whereas a more experienced player would instead just hold position and make that unlikely.

Young players will make tactical mistakes but playing them also gives them massive opportunities to learn and develop. We are clearly playing the long game at the moment with our recruitment and tactics. I think it is brave and marvelous and I hope we continue with this strategy. We don't necessarily need to go out and buy a bunch of 18 year olds from here on in but I'd be perfectly happy with our signings being in the age 20 to 24 category and us only sign players older than that if we happen to sell a true first team player for decent money.

 

[parklane1]

Back to Bergvall.

Was a post by someone somewhere on here about younger players and the step up. And how the poster thought Bergvall was just on the right side of that line of being ready now.

Thought of that when thinking about the potential red and then the goal. Fine margins, but also the step up and what's required. In time we need him to not make that challenge on a yellow, even when tired and pumped up he needs to be calm enough. But he also has the quality to make that run, find that space and execute that finish. Just ready, but still a risk.

Hopefully this experience will push him a bit further towards the definitely redy now side.

Would agree with you over that, like most kids/young men their enthusiasm can get them in trouble and its something they do need to get a grip on. On another day he would have got his marching orders and would have left us a man short.

Not knocking him by saying that its just something young players have to learn.