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London Bridge and Borough terrorist incident

r-u-s-x said:
Is there a record of success? - its difficult to compare because there are totally different situations but terrorist attacks are still happening in Iraq. In fact its still largely a war zone so perhaps his experience should be listened to but rules in a war zone should not necessarily be applied in the UK.
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This is all I'm suggesting and, I'm sure, all anybody would expect. Nobody is suggesting replication of tactics. At the same time we clearly have a worsening issue on our hands which, in my opinion, requires a stronger response. The point of my posting the link was to illustrate that somebody with far more experience and insight than you or I into the people that we are dealing with seems to be of a similar view.
 
This is a very negative view but I can't see any solution to this issue. People are using a religion to fulfill their medieval ideas, every action we take to stop this by either being tougher on their teachings and actions or trying to include their followers in our society is seen as an attack on themselves and their faith, this in turn helps them recruit more vulnerable/disillusioned people. Anybody can sent themselves up as an Islamic cleric, they do not need to be ordained and their is no hierarchy within the religion to control them. This is a war and as we have seen in the past it's virtually impossible to win a war against guerrilla/terrorist tactics while the insurgence have resources. There is no one person/group/nation we can negotiate with.
 
K.D.D.D.D.Soc said:
This is a very negative view but I can't see any solution to this issue. People are using a religion to fulfill their medieval ideas, every action we take to stop this by either being tougher on their teachings and actions or trying to include their followers in our society is seen as an attack on themselves and their faith, this in turn helps them recruit more vulnerable/disillusioned people. Anybody can sent themselves up as an Islamic cleric, they do not need to be ordained and their is no hierarchy within the religion to control them. This is a war and as we have seen in the past it's virtually impossible to win a war against guerrilla/terrorist tactics while the insurgence have resources. There is no one person/group/nation we can negotiate with.
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It may be negative, but it's true. The good news is that "the west" has withstood worse than these dingdongheads and come up on top in the past.

It's also entirely unsurprising. Part of what annoyed me with the "enough is enough" comment from May was that this was completely predictable and it was only a matter of time before it happened again. If this was some kind of breaking point to induce change it should have been possible to do something earlier.

Anyone who claims to have a quick solution to ensure security is wrong.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Ok so simple question to throw back at you

If a UK citizen is proven to have been to Syria or Libya to fight for IS or a liken'd cell, do you think they should be allowed to return to the UK and back into society without question??

What would you say should be the actions taken to such circumstances?
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No. I don't think that's happening either.

Depends a lot on the situation. A foreign national could be kept out. But a national still has rights. Depends on what can be proved.

Part of the issue surely is that many of these people are hiding what they're doing abroad?

Parklaner81 said:
Can I ask your opinion on the matter of prison sentences by the way? The examples I cited earlier were 7/7 accomplices, and the leader of the transatlantic airliner liquid bomb plot (something more on the scale of 9/11 than London Bridge) being free today. Do you still feel that we aren't too soft in light of these cases?
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I don't know enough about these individual cases. I understand the concern and of at some point we start seeing repeat offenders behind terror attacks I imagine the outcry will be massive. I'm not convinced that's actually been a problem so far and I suppose that indicates that the security and intelligence agencies are doing their jobs to a large extent?

Parklaner81 said:
This is all I'm suggesting and, I'm sure, all anybody would expect. Nobody is suggesting replication of tactics. At the same time we clearly have a worsening issue on our hands which, in my opinion, requires a stronger response. The point of my posting the link was to illustrate that somebody with far more experience and insight than you or I into the people that we are dealing with seems to be of a similar view.
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We have a worsening situation on our hands. It's been getting worse for some time. There's nothing that's actually changed in that regard.

If you didn't see this coming you've not been paying attention.

Perhaps the security and intelligence services need more resources. But the balance between security and liberty needs to be protected.

One of the ways we lose this is by sacrificing our liberty for security. Another is by enabling the fascist right wing nationalists. Calls for both of those mistakes are expected and shouldn't be surprising to educated people, but seemingly have been regardless. Which doesn't bode well.
 
Some CCTV of the attackers stabbing a man then getting shot is all over social media, the Police did not fudge about
 
braineclipse said:
I understand the concern and of at some point we start seeing repeat offenders behind terror attacks I imagine the outcry will be massive. I'm not convinced that's actually been a problem so far and I suppose that indicates that the security and intelligence agencies are doing their jobs to a large extent?

We have a worsening situation on our hands. It's been getting worse for some time. There's nothing that's actually changed in that regard. If you didn't see this coming you've not been paying attention.
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Whether or not it's (currently) a 'problem' in terms of freed convicts reoffending is not my point. There is a general principle of justice. In any case, the article cited earlier states that a large majority of those released refused to engage in de-radicalisation programmes. That suggests a very clear and serious risk of it becoming a problem. Would you have us wait for this to occur before acting?

I for one certainly welcome Theresa May's proposal to extend custodial sentences, and I imagine it is something that will find overwhelming popular support. At the end of the day, these terrorists are bullies, and bullies thrive on weakness. What kind of message does the headline '...hundreds of jailed terrorists back on UK streets' send? This is an easy, common sense way of tightening up. Why on earth not?

And, like many people I suspect, I have seen this coming for a long, long time.
 
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braineclipse said:
No. I don't think that's happening either.

Depends a lot on the situation. A foreign national could be kept out. But a national still has rights. Depends on what can be proved.

Part of the issue surely is that many of these people are hiding what they're doing abroad?
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Surely if we know the facts in their death we knew it when they were alive? In the case of Manchester it came to light the day after so you can't tell me that they found this out in 24hrs of digging, thats crap. They know this is many cases but these people are protected by extreme rights. For my money if you are known to go abroad to fight for IS or a like you are a war criminal in any land. These people do not hide it, very much like the UK citizens going to marry into IS

So lets rephrase the question, if it was proven a UK citizen went abroad to fight on the side of a known terror organisation or went to a training camp do you think they shoul dbe allowed to walk the streets of the UK?
 
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markysimmo said:
Some CCTV of the attackers stabbing a man then getting shot is all over social media, the Police did not fudge about
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Watched it about 30 times. Amazing seeing the police in action. And the bystanders approaching the terrorists, trying to help the guy being stabbed.
 
Parklaner81 said:
Whether or not it's (currently) a 'problem' in terms of freed convicts reoffending is not my point. There is a general principle of justice. In any case, the article cited earlier states that a large majority of those released refused to engage in de-radicalisation programmes. That suggests a very clear and serious risk of it becoming a problem. Would you have us wait for this to occur before acting?

I for one certainly welcome Theresa May's proposal to extend custodial sentences, and I imagine it is something that will find overwhelming popular support. At the end of the day, these terrorists are bullies, and bullies thrive on weakness. What kind of message does the headline '...hundreds of jailed terrorists back on UK streets' send? This is an easy, common sense way of tightening up. Why on earth not?

And, like many people I suspect, I have seen this coming for a long, long time.
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I'm not saying we should wait to act. Quite the opposite. The simple fact that we haven't seen re-offenders probably means that appropriate actions are being taken. But you wouldn't expect those actions to be made public, would you?

The idea that a desperate politician days before an election suddenly got it right on a security and punishment question remains strange to me. Why wait until now with this? What has stopped her actually doing something about this while in power instead of making promises to do something if elected? To me it looks like rank populism and far from the well reasoned kind of response that's needed.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Surely if we know the facts in their death we knew it when they were alive? In the case of Manchester it came to light the day after so you can't tell me that they found this out in 24hrs of digging, thats crap. They know this is many cases but these people are protected by extreme rights. For my money if you are known to go abroad to fight for IS or a like you are a war criminal in any land. These people do not hide it, very much like the UK citizens going to marry into IS

So lets rephrase the question, if it was proven a UK citizen went abroad to fight on the side of a known terror organisation or went to a training camp do you think they shoul dbe allowed to walk the streets of the UK?
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No. If something has been proven actions should be taken. Most of what's being written indicates that this already happens as returning fighters seem to try to hide what they've been up to...

My point is more one about how hard this kind of thing can be to prove and how many innocent people you have to seriously hurt to even get close to completely prevent this kind of attack at this stage.

What should happen when someone returns from Libya and we're not quite sure what they've been up to in your mind? Indefinite detention until their innocence can be proved?
 
braineclipse said:
What should happen when someone returns from Libya and we're not quite sure what they've been up to in your mind? Indefinite detention until their innocence can be proved?
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I think you can put things in place on exit that gives you a greater indication of whats gone on, the exit Visa is a good one in my view and makes it harder to navigate round, if a UK citizen claims to be going for Business you can reference it, if they are going to see family then you have a good lead to know if there are actually from Libya or if its bull, ultimately its easier to fact find this stuff.

No different to when I go into Saudi and the Saudi government want to know exactly where I am going to be, the purpose and for how long, this is just the same but us asking in the interest of national security.
 
braineclipse said:
The idea that a desperate politician days before an election suddenly got it right on a security and punishment question remains strange to me. Why wait until now with this? What has stopped her actually doing something about this while in power instead of making promises to do something if elected?
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Who knows, maybe the relatively small number of problems we've had over here prior to this year led her to believe (incorrectly in my view) that we had a reasonable balance?

I can't provide an answer to that. All I can say is, better late than never...
 
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Grays_1890 said:
I think you can put things in place on exit that gives you a greater indication of whats gone on, the exit Visa is a good one in my view and makes it harder to navigate round, if a UK citizen claims to be going for Business you can reference it, if they are going to see family then you have a good lead to know if there are actually from Libya or if its bull, ultimately its easier to fact find this stuff.

No different to when I go into Saudi and the Saudi government want to know exactly where I am going to be, the purpose and for how long, this is just the same but us asking in the interest of national security.
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I'm not sure I fully understand the exit visa concept in this context. Every citizen leaving the UK would fill it out and the intelligence agencies would then monitor if little were following their stated travel plans?

You're quite consistently not answering questions on what you actually want done. Someone returns and there is some concern regarding their activity abroad, but nothing has been proved. What do you think should happen to that person?

Parklaner81 said:
Who knows, maybe the relatively small number of problems we've had over here prior to this year led her to believe (incorrectly in my view) that we had a reasonable balance?

I can't provide an answer to that. All I can say is, better late than never...
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Very little has changed in my view. The latest two attacks are not at all surprising. This is not some changing trend.
 
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