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Lessons from Bill Nick

NYSpur

NYSpur

Hossam Ghaly
With our defensive issues, a comment in The Glory Game by Bill Nick has been resonating with me. I went back to find it and found a couple of pertinent extracts (I tried to attach in jpg format but it says they are too large -- any suggestions to shrink/attach and I will do so).

In one, he notes that the game has become more defensive and that the "first rule in a manager's bible is "don't lose"'. Clearly Ange is operating from a different version of this 'bible"! For Nicholson, there had to be some pragmatism for, as he notes in the same passage, "supporters aren't interested in good teams that lose." My fear remains with Ange that we are a "good team" in patches but our well documented vulnerability defensively will be our undoing. Our system relies on our defenders being perfect because it offers opponents good opportunities by its very nature. On occasions where errors creep in, we are undone. For all their good qualities, we have seen enough to know that it is unreasonable to expect perfection from our back line.

Separately, in the category of "it was always thus", the other extract is rather reminiscent of our recent history, noting that Spurs have a "habit , especially away from home, of crumbling before a hard but inferior team."
 
NYSpur said:
With our defensive issues, a comment in The Glory Game by Bill Nick has been resonating with me. I went back to find it and found a couple of pertinent extracts (I tried to attach in jpg format but it says they are too large -- any suggestions to shrink/attach and I will do so).

In one, he notes that the game has become more defensive and that the "first rule in a manager's bible is "don't lose"'. Clearly Ange is operating from a different version of this 'bible"! For Nicholson, there had to be some pragmatism for, as he notes in the same passage, "supporters aren't interested in good teams that lose." My fear remains with Ange that we are a "good team" in patches but our well documented vulnerability defensively will be our undoing. Our system relies on our defenders being perfect because it offers opponents good opportunities by its very nature. On occasions where errors creep in, we are undone. For all their good qualities, we have seen enough to know that it is unreasonable to expect perfection from our back line.

Separately, in the category of "it was always thus", the other extract is rather reminiscent of our recent history, noting that Spurs have a "habit , especially away from home, of crumbling before a hard but inferior team."
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Serious question…
What are the well documented issues in defence
Second half of last season it was set pieces and counters, the latter is still an issue but we are dealing with both miles better than before. It looks like we have learned and worked on something
This season it’s Individuals making basics errors. Not system faults.
So what is the issue and why does it occur in some games and not others?
 
My reference is to the counters. Clear examples Saudi Sportswashing Machine (away) both this year and last. But I agree that there does appear to have been a tweak, perhaps with the full backs holding a more defensive posture. But the on the halfway line high line remains a source of concern where we rely on VDV's pace. See Saudi Sportswashing Machine away this year (where VDV was absent).

I think the issue isn't intermittent but that the better teams are better at exploiting it. But even in the Europa we see good chances.

If it is the individuals, is the issue that we have prioritized attack minded defenders who are not so good defending.
 
NYSpur said:
My reference is to the counters. Clear examples Saudi Sportswashing Machine (away) both this year and last. But I agree that there does appear to have been a tweak, perhaps with the full backs holding a more defensive posture. But the on the halfway line high line remains a source of concern where we rely on VDV's pace. See Saudi Sportswashing Machine away this year (where VDV was absent).

I think the issue isn't intermittent but that the better teams are better at exploiting it. But even in the Europa we see good chances.

If it is the individuals, is the issue that we have prioritized attack minded defenders who are not so good defending.
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We have conceded that one counter so far
That’s fine as it’s hart of the gamble the way we play
The brain farts are not fine though
 
The big question I have after the Brighton game was where do we plateau under Ange? The 3 big areas I was thinking about based on the Brighton match are as follows:

1) Joe Hart nailed it on MOTD2 last night when he said that Brighton were 1-2 yards off the pace in the 1st half, whereas Spurs were 5 yards off the pace in the 2nd. They showed some pretty good examples of both, even exempting Solanke from being tarred with that same brush. It begs the question, why that was the case? Is it an unconscious push back on the system from the players? Is it fatigue from the fixture congestion? Was it tactical? Whatever it was, it didn't work.

2) Another question is mostly tactical. We would see from Jose a switch between a 1-2 and a 2-1 in midfield. It's quite easy really. When you're chasing a game you keep the 6 intact but you make sure the other 2 are on the front foot. When you're leading you play more with one attack minded but the other really getting hold of the midfield and working as a pair. From what I saw, we didn't do that. We went 2-0 up and continued with the 1-2. Even though you don't need to change personnel to change that tactic, we had the options of Biss, Sarr, Berg and Gray. Ange made his subs on the 79th minute. Is this the right game management I wonder? Also, we only used 3 subs when we'd played during the week.

3) The last area is the breakthrough from players. An example is Uodgie. He's a young kid, but his part in the goals was not very impressive. He actually reminded me of Davies when he came inside from LB, got into an awkward body shape and ultimately cost us at least a point. Great defenders don't make such errors. Their awareness is heightened on the training ground so much so that they can be depended on in these situations. It makes me wonder how hard we're drilling these young players on the ugly stuff.

I'm actually enjoying the ride with Ange, but still have these nagging doubts about some basics. They do sort of relate to what Bill Nich said at a higher level.
 
Muttley said:
The big question I have after the Brighton game was where do we plateau under Ange? The 3 big areas I was thinking about based on the Brighton match are as follows:

1) Joe Hart nailed it on MOTD2 last night when he said that Brighton were 1-2 yards off the pace in the 1st half, whereas Spurs were 5 yards off the pace in the 2nd. They showed some pretty good examples of both, even exempting Solanke from being tarred with that same brush. It begs the question, why that was the case? Is it an unconscious push back on the system from the players? Is it fatigue from the fixture congestion? Was it tactical? Whatever it was, it didn't work.

2) Another question is mostly tactical. We would see from Jose a switch between a 1-2 and a 2-1 in midfield. It's quite easy really. When you're chasing a game you keep the 6 intact but you make sure the other 2 are on the front foot. When you're leading you play more with one attack minded but the other really getting hold of the midfield and working as a pair. From what I saw, we didn't do that. We went 2-0 up and continued with the 1-2. Even though you don't need to change personnel to change that tactic, we had the options of Biss, Sarr, Berg and Gray. Ange made his subs on the 79th minute. Is this the right game management I wonder? Also, we only used 3 subs when we'd played during the week.

3) The last area is the breakthrough from players. An example is Uodgie. He's a young kid, but his part in the goals was not very impressive. He actually reminded me of Davies when he came inside from LB, got into an awkward body shape and ultimately cost us at least a point. Great defenders don't make such errors. Their awareness is heightened on the training ground so much so that they can be depended on in these situations. It makes me wonder how hard we're drilling these young players on the ugly stuff.

I'm actually enjoying the ride with Ange, but still have these nagging doubts about some basics. They do sort of relate to what Bill Nich said at a higher level.
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One the first part it was mentality
The players thought they had done the hard part
I think they inferred that on MOTD
 
Bedfordspurs said:
One the first part it was mentality
The players thought they had done the hard part
I think they inferred that on MOTD
Click to expand...

This is just cliched talk you get any time a team throws a lead away - we conceded a goal straight after half time, worst time to concede, throws your half time talk out the window and gives the opposition the momentum - we didn't deal with that and were second best from that point on
 
billyiddo said:
This is just cliched talk you get any time a team throws a lead away - we conceded a goal straight after half time, worst time to concede, throws your half time talk out the window and gives the opposition the momentum - we didn't deal with that and were second best from that point on
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We did
But when you see the analytics of how we didn’t press in their first few minutes it shows the effort had stopped
 
billyiddo said:
This is just cliched talk you get any time a team throws a lead away - we conceded a goal straight after half time, worst time to concede, throws your half time talk out the window and gives the opposition the momentum - we didn't deal with that and were second best from that point on
Click to expand...
Clichés are sometimes true.

For sure the early goal and momentum were important factors.

But I also think the players may have been somewhat in cruise control mode after the first half and getting out of that can be difficult. Not getting into that mode is the key.

Edit: Check out the tweet thread in the Ange thread posted by Bedford. That's not just momentum imo.
 
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90291Spur said:
Bill Nick also used to tell his players 'when the ball goes dead, you come alive'. And I think that twice this season we've dozed off at throw ins that shortly after lead to a goal.
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For sure a problem. For sure something that should be worked on. The players have to take responsibility on this.
 
Muttley said:
The big question I have after the Brighton game was where do we plateau under Ange? The 3 big areas I was thinking about based on the Brighton match are as follows:

1) Joe Hart nailed it on MOTD2 last night when he said that Brighton were 1-2 yards off the pace in the 1st half, whereas Spurs were 5 yards off the pace in the 2nd. They showed some pretty good examples of both, even exempting Solanke from being tarred with that same brush. It begs the question, why that was the case? Is it an unconscious push back on the system from the players? Is it fatigue from the fixture congestion? Was it tactical? Whatever it was, it didn't work.

2) Another question is mostly tactical. We would see from Jose a switch between a 1-2 and a 2-1 in midfield. It's quite easy really. When you're chasing a game you keep the 6 intact but you make sure the other 2 are on the front foot. When you're leading you play more with one attack minded but the other really getting hold of the midfield and working as a pair. From what I saw, we didn't do that. We went 2-0 up and continued with the 1-2. Even though you don't need to change personnel to change that tactic, we had the options of Biss, Sarr, Berg and Gray. Ange made his subs on the 79th minute. Is this the right game management I wonder? Also, we only used 3 subs when we'd played during the week.

3) The last area is the breakthrough from players. An example is Uodgie. He's a young kid, but his part in the goals was not very impressive. He actually reminded me of Davies when he came inside from LB, got into an awkward body shape and ultimately cost us at least a point. Great defenders don't make such errors. Their awareness is heightened on the training ground so much so that they can be depended on in these situations. It makes me wonder how hard we're drilling these young players on the ugly stuff.

I'm actually enjoying the ride with Ange, but still have these nagging doubts about some basics. They do sort of relate to what Bill Nich said at a higher level.
Click to expand...
1) Would be really strange to have an unconscious pushback on the system that just helped them play one of the most impressive halves of football we've seen in quite a while and that left us 2-0 up. I think it's more likely they had a 5 game winning streak already extended to 6 in their minds and failed to adjust.

2) Both approaches are fine. Either approach will fail if not executed well enough.

3) Our team being rather young is probably a factor. Younger players will be more likely to make mistakes like that and struggle to get back into the right frame of mind. Udogie is usually a very good defender. One of those games and he wasn't helped when he needed someone to bail him out.
 
braineclipse said:
Clichés are sometimes true.

For sure the early goal and momentum were important factors.

But I also think the players may have been somewhat in cruise control mode after the first half and getting out of that can be difficult. Not getting into that mode is the key.
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Ange was very big on "we never stop" and "if we slow down to take a rest we are giving the opponents a rest" when he was at Celtic.
I cannot believe he was pleased about Sunday, in fact a lot of his reaction was to me that he was absolutely raging and was having to keep a very tight lid on his anger.
 
glasgowspur said:
Ange was very big on "we never stop" and "if we slow down to take a rest we are giving the opponents a rest" when he was at Celtic.
I cannot believe he was pleased about Sunday, in fact a lot of his reaction was to me that he was absolutely raging and was having to keep a very tight lid on his anger.
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That was my read on it too and I agreed with much of what was said in the most recent pod about it too which was similar.

The players let themselves, Ange and us down in that second half. They seem to know that based on what's been said by the players. They need to take responsibility within the group to prevent this kind of thing in the future.

Would be interesting to know how Ange reacted and will react behind closed doors. We'll never know, but we'll probably get some ideas about the impact of this in the games to come and when we again go on a hot streak and/or into half time with a somewhat comfortable lead.

This game reminds of a good TV show ruining the early good work with poor seasons later on. Can't even enjoy the mostly excellent first half knowing what came after.
 
braineclipse said:
1) Would be really strange to have an unconscious pushback on the system that just helped them play one of the most impressive halves of football we've seen in quite a while and that left us 2-0 up. I think it's more likely they had a 5 game winning streak already extended to 6 in their minds and failed to adjust.

2) Both approaches are fine. Either approach will fail if not executed well enough.

3) Our team being rather young is probably a factor. Younger players will be more likely to make mistakes like that and struggle to get back into the right frame of mind. Udogie is usually a very good defender. One of those games and he wasn't helped when he needed someone to bail him out.
Click to expand...

1) Ok, so not an unconscious push back on the system but more a collective mental weakness and complacency. Makes sense.

2) Not sure what you mean by execution. Perhaps relating to (1).

3) Time will tell on this one. Udogie has not been a good defender at Spurs since he joined. He's constantly given away pointless free-kicks, his positional sense is poor and he needs a steadying voice alongside him to tell him what to do. He has "defended well" by "attacking well" in a higher press if that makes sense. Now he needs to be able to do both areas.
 
Muttley said:
1) Ok, so not an unconscious push back on the system but more a collective mental weakness and complacency. Makes sense.

2) Not sure what you mean by execution. Perhaps relating to (1).

3) Time will tell on this one. Udogie has not been a good defender at Spurs since he joined. He's constantly given away pointless free-kicks, his positional sense is poor and he needs a steadying voice alongside him to tell him what to do. He has "defended well" by "attacking well" in a higher press if that makes sense. Now he needs to be able to do both areas.
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2) Essentially, yes. If the effort, fight and discipline isn't there it doesn't really much matter what formation and system the team is playing.

3) Here we see things rather differently. I think Udogie has been mostly a very good defender with occasional moments and games that have been poor. Often, but not always, seemingly coinciding with tiredness and/or injuries. Quite normal for a young defender.
 
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