parklane1
Tony Galvin
Can not agree more, top class player who could have shone at any club.
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Jose Mourinho - SACKED
- Thread starter mjc23
- Start date
Can not agree more, top class player who could have shone at any club.
Bishop
Nick Barmby
No one's saying those players were successful, Eriksen wouldn't have been either for what they were trying to continue.
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Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
Conveniently forgot the last one I see. NDombele 70 m, LoCelso ( effectively 30 million) Sessegnon ( 30 m ) and Clarke (10m ). That's circa 140 m of backing. Remember also when Poch first came ( unlike Mourinho) we already had the core of a great side who had just finished 5th iirc.
Lloris
Walker
Verts
Rose,
Eriksen,
Dembele,
Lamela
Kane
Plus Dier and Dele who I don't think he had much input into buying.
Plus Levy never sold any stars out from under him ( only latterly Walker). That is as much " properly backing" him as not bringing in players. Even though you always reject the fact that Levy DID buy 26 players for Poch , who almost universally failed to improve them - to say nothing of all the potential youth " talent" he failed to bring on to first team standard.
Let's see what he does at PSG where he has a one horse race ( currently second) some fantastic world class attackers and virtualy unlimited funds. He flucked a result against Bayern ( without Lewandowski and Gnabry) and I suspect he will lose the home leg if they play the same way.
Sorry to puncture your rise tinted view of Poch. But he is no longer our manager so can we please move on.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
He WAS a top class player in his pomp and virtually every time he took a free kick you almost expected him to score. I never comprehended how one of Europe's best dead ball kickers in his first few seasons suddenly forgot how to kick a dead ball - and his corners not clearing the first man became the hallmark of the man. Mystifying to me.
Pirate you were saying in defense of Mourinho within the last couple of days that you can't blame a manager who isn't given the tools he wants and yet here you are once again piling on Pochettino for transfers?
Seems you're contradicting yourself more than little here as it's pretty clear that Pochettino had been calling for a rebuild for a couple of seasons and instead got 2 windows where we couldn't manage to buy anyone at all - how do square defending Mourinho because he didn't get a CB or a 'beast if a backup CF' whilst also saying Poch should have just got on made do with the sorts of players we were giving him instead of his targets and in the aforementioned instances no one one at all?
By the time we were in a position to finally invest in the team he got 4 players, one we know he didn't want (Clarke) another that he said would take 2 years to acclimatise to the league (Ndombele, and so it has proven) an injured Lo Celso that arrived at the end of the window and an injured Sessegnon - and before he got a chance to intergrate them he was let go.
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SteveAWOL
Barry Daines
Those were the days...
Such a pity about how his form petered out when Eriksen realised he weren’t on Barcelona’s shopping list.
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Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
I have been consistent in blaming our transfer committee/ policy for a number of years. Yes, I feel that Poch had, or at the very least, should have had more than a little influence over the players that were bought. How long was he in charge ffs. ! He had many many years to influence our transfer targets. Yet under his watch , we by and large bought poorly. And more of an indictment iof him, he couldn't improve the players we did buy. Nor did he bring on any of the talented players from the youth team. As the first class coach, which you and others still persist with claiming, he failed with too many players for me to call him a great coach.
He finally presided over £140 m of new acquisitions. I suspect that as soon as Levy realized these were duffers as well, he finally lost patience with Poch's inability to identify the right players for this club, which hastened his decision to pull the trigger.
They weren't duffers though, he barely got a chance to use 2 of them through injury and the one that was available actually looked quite bright - i wonder if i could find a post from you saying that Mourinho needs more time with the players he has bought before being judged, or is 12 games a fair amount of time to make that call even if they're injured?
You're being a hipocrite - defend Mourinho because he doesn't get the all the players he wants yet say 'tough luck' to Pochettino for the same situation.
Mourinho has had more players signed under his watch than Poch, 9 in 3 windows compared to 26 in 11, at a higher price per player and a much higher net spend - yet you defend the latter and not the former, strange. Mourinho came in to this season waxing lyrical about how well he had been backed and how strong the squad was, while Pochettino said he should have his title changed back to head coach because his lack of input in transfers and was warning we needed a painful rebuild yet it's he that was backed in your mind and not Mourinho - does not compute.
You're being a hipocrite - defend Mourinho because he doesn't get the all the players he wants yet say 'tough luck' to Pochettino for the same situation.
Mourinho has had more players signed under his watch than Poch, 9 in 3 windows compared to 26 in 11, at a higher price per player and a much higher net spend - yet you defend the latter and not the former, strange. Mourinho came in to this season waxing lyrical about how well he had been backed and how strong the squad was, while Pochettino said he should have his title changed back to head coach because his lack of input in transfers and was warning we needed a painful rebuild yet it's he that was backed in your mind and not Mourinho - does not compute.
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Finney Is Back
Andy Thompson
Not ‘conveniently’ forgetting it, I discounted it because the manager didn’t get a chance to use the players he finally got to spend real money on due to the players arriving injured and Pochettino being sacked 12 games into the season.
Even if you include that £70m net from that final window it was then still under £10m net per window.
Poch didn’t have players sold out from underneath him because the players didn’t want to leave under him (except Walker, who actually was sold) The players didn’t leave because they didn’t have to, we were up there and challenging. Let’s see who wants to leave this summer if Jose is still manager.
When Poch first arrived, he had a team that had finished 6th the previous season.... Nobody expected 4 CL finishes in a row for us (especially so with only £3m net a year invested in the squad).To say that was expected would be ridiculous revisionism. Mourinho on the other hand inherited a top 4, CL finalist team with a further £70m net of talent added to it.
Baleforce
Les Bennett
The financial spend doesn’t take into account the strength of the squad though.
By hook or by crook we had a genuine set of superstars, as good as any other player in the world at their position.
Lloris/Verts/Toby/Dembele/Eriksen/Son/Kane
That’s hundreds of millions of pounds worth of talent, Levy should be lauded for assembling it, not beaten over the head because he got a good deal.
By hook or by crook we had a genuine set of superstars, as good as any other player in the world at their position.
Lloris/Verts/Toby/Dembele/Eriksen/Son/Kane
That’s hundreds of millions of pounds worth of talent, Levy should be lauded for assembling it, not beaten over the head because he got a good deal.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
Again, how long has Mourinho been here compared to Poch? How long has he had to really buy the players he wants?
He hasn't even had a full season yet ffs!! Last year and this have both been clusterfudges for any manager. Specifically, he didn't get two players in the the two key positions he requested.
I am not defending Mourinho' s tactics, team selections or management style, (all of which I have issues with) but I do believe in giving someone a fair crack of the whip before rushing to judgement. The quite phenomenal amount of penalties and free kicks we have needlessly conceded this season, combined with players continuing to make individual mistakes , can hardly be laid at his door.
He hasn't even had a full season yet ffs!! Last year and this have both been clusterfudges for any manager. Specifically, he didn't get two players in the the two key positions he requested.
I am not defending Mourinho' s tactics, team selections or management style, (all of which I have issues with) but I do believe in giving someone a fair crack of the whip before rushing to judgement. The quite phenomenal amount of penalties and free kicks we have needlessly conceded this season, combined with players continuing to make individual mistakes , can hardly be laid at his door.
We had a strong XI, not much beyond that up until 16/17 then we got progressively weaker on paper window by window
We're talking about transfers and how you are contradicting yourself by saying Mourinho shouldn't be judged on underperformance because he hasn't been fully backed in the market but are happy to hold Pochettino to account despite less backing in the market - in terms of net spend, total spend and number of players signed.
If you want to argue he hasn't had enough time 12 games short of 2 seasons (come the summer) that's a different argument altogether - I'd argue he has shown enough in the same way Ramos, AVB and Sherwood all showed enough in less time.
Baleforce
Les Bennett
The point was that numbers alone are irrelevant, it’s the actual player quality that matters.
Had we signed Kane for 150m from somewhere the narrative would have been different, the squad would have been the same and we’d have been financially worse off.
I struggle to see how that impacts the argument to be honest - we're not talking hypothetical scenarios we're comparing things that actually happened.
Pochettino took over a 6th place squad and spent X amount to improve it, Mourinho took over a 4th place squad and has spent Y - both squads had existing quality in it that meant we didn't need to strengthen certain areas.
Baleforce
Les Bennett
For me, the biggest thing with Jose, is that it’s Jose, he has had success literally everywhere else, if we decide to move on from him we have to be absolutely sure he’s the problem rather than us.
If we get that wrong, we are still fudged and we’ve binned off a potential fix. Whoever our next manager is, they won’t have a CV like Jose.
If we get that wrong, we are still fudged and we’ve binned off a potential fix. Whoever our next manager is, they won’t have a CV like Jose.
Baleforce
Les Bennett
My point is that we were very good for a time at getting high value players dirt cheap and that skews the argument.
We can’t say, “Poch wasn’t backed because he only spent X.”
Nice reframing of the points made. Money was/is part of it but he also wasn't getting the rebuild he wanted when he wanted it or the input on transfers that he felt a manager should get and if the club were good at getting high value players dirt cheap then that is something they stopped doing successfully at some stage too.
Baleforce
Les Bennett
I wasn’t reframing anything, my original point was,
“financial spend doesn’t take into account the strength of the squad”
As to you final point, yes, our scouting dept and transfer committee went from top skills to no skills seemingly overnight.
It does appear to be moving in the right direction again at least.
