Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[billyiddo]

Every year their leaving us at some point or another
The reality is no one can justify the fees we would want for them or have other priorities

was never in question when we were doing well in the league because the players weren't looking to move

 

[billyiddo]

Kane is a Spurs man, Modric and Berbatov never were. Son isn’t at that level, he might be getting there but the big boys havent seemingly been sniffing around him (purely judging by lack of transfer speculation compared to our other stars) Im sure Kane thought we would have won something by now, and the fact we haven’t he’s well within his rights to question whether we ever will during his playing years and move on if he wants to....

Modric and Berbatov (and Keane & Carrick) not being Spurs men makes them the perfect unbiased examples to illustrate the point.

I think it's fair to say that if we were not top 4 regulars over the time Son & Harry were here they would have forced through transfers to bigger teams by now rather than signing new contracts every other year.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

was never in question when we were doing well in the league because the players weren't looking to move

It was questioned every season when we had a blip and every time we went out of a comp

 

[billyiddo]

It was questioned every season when we had a blip and every time we went out of a comp

And answered by them signing new contracts?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

And answered by them signing new contracts?

Yep
So maybe their happy winning nothing
I mean they do sign new contracts earning more money
But it didn’t stop everyone saying their leaving
We have Spurs fans adamant Kane deserves to go now!!! There are people who believe we can be better without him too

 

[billyiddo]

Yep
So maybe their happy winning nothing
I mean they do sign new contracts earning more money
But it didn’t stop everyone saying their leaving
We have Spurs fans adamant Kane deserves to go now!!! There are people who believe we can be better without him too

This argument is always so silly - i don't think players (or fans) are 'happy winning nothing' i think they just want to win/challenge for the big 2 primarily and know that by being at a club that regularly does that will likely lead to a number of domestic trophies too.


Wrt to idle speculation, you can't odds that, it will always be there - but if a player isn't signing a new contract, like Son atm, then the player themselves is putting their future in to question

 

[harr1984]

Modric and Berbatov (and Keane & Carrick) not being Spurs men makes them the perfect unbiased examples to illustrate the point.

I think it's fair to say that if we were not top 4 regulars over the time Son & Harry were here they would have forced through transfers to bigger teams by now rather than signing new contracts every other year.

I’m not sure about Son, but Kane that is fair comment. Getting CL is important for sure, it’s amazing how often this debate crops up...

 

[Raziel]

Winning the League Cup isn't a sign of progress at all, as evidenced by Juande Ramos as well as Swansea and Birmingham City who have won it since us.
UEFA demoting our league Cup winners to a third tier European competition makes it even less prestigious than it was previously.

Winning the League Cup means a great day for the fans and a trophy on the honours board, IMO it doesn't represent any sign of progress at all.

See my comment "it's also a sign of progress (not in isolation, but combined with the consistency of PL results, European participation, etc.)"

Still kills me that anyone associated with Spurs thinks we can scoff at any trophy (we haven't won that many in our history)

 

[billyiddo]

I’m not sure about Son, but Kane that is fair comment. Getting CL is important for sure, it’s amazing how often this debate crops up...

It's strange really because i think everyone is more or less on the same page - every now and then you just get posts like the one above that willfully misinterpret a persons position and it kicks things off.

Not a single person* has turned their nose up or scoffed at the idea of winning a trophy.


* @Baleforce's opinions should always be taken with a pinch of salt

 

[Bedfordspurs]

This argument is always so silly - i don't think players (or fans) are 'happy winning nothing' i think they just want to win/challenge for the big 2 primarily and know that by being at a club that regularly does that will likely lead to a number of domestic trophies too.


Wrt to idle speculation, you can't odds that, it will always be there - but if a player isn't signing a new contract, like Son atm, then the player themselves is putting their future in to question

I personally believe both are happy here and believe the club is trying to do the right thing
As I say every time we have a weak period their leaving... and when we’re doing well nothing is said.
I mean some press people reported the players were unhappy yet the video footage shows a happy camp
Anything can and will be spun to suit an agenda and motive. It suits the press to speculate too as it sells column inches

 

[Finney Is Back]

And what about the players? They want to see trophies and medals to look back on. Reminiscing about the days of coming top 4 in the league and losing semis and finals even isn’t what they want.

As for the League cup, Emirates Marketing Project have won it five of the last seven years and inbetween that was a Man U and Chelsea, it is still mainly the big teams that won it. So would be good to see our name back on there, even if it’s not the main trophy we want we aren’t in a position to look down on it and beating Emirates Marketing Project in any final is an achievement and gets that monkey off our back....

If the players win the League Cup then they will spray some champagne around and have a great evening. I doubt it will convince them one iota that the club are progressing.... as perfectly evidenced by our two best players practically going on strike to get moves to CL teams in the close season after we won this very same trophy (and that was when it came with a place in the Europa League instead of the new third rate minnow UEFA competition).

 

[braineclipse]

If the players win the League Cup then they will spray some champagne around and have a great evening. I doubt it will convince them one iota that the club are progressing.... as perfectly evidenced by our two best players practically going on strike to get moves to CL teams in the close season after we won this very same trophy (and that was when it came with a place in the Europa League instead of the new third rate minnow UEFA competition).

LC win alone does little to nothing I agree.

If there are other signs of progress a LC win may have a magnifying effect on that impression.

 

[Finney Is Back]

See my comment "it's also a sign of progress (not in isolation, but combined with the consistency of PL results, European participation, etc.)"

Still kills me that anyone associated with Spurs thinks we can scoff at any trophy (we haven't won that many in our history)

Nobody is scoffing at winning a trophy. Winning trophies is what football is all about.

The question here is whether or not winning it has any bearing on demonstrating that our club are progressing. Personally I think it has no bearing.

 

[spurspinter1]

Nobody is scoffing at winning a trophy. Winning trophies is what football is all about.

The question here is whether or not winning it has any bearing on demonstrating that our club are progressing. Personally I think it has no bearing.

You know that a trophy indicates that the squad has won a competition though right? It's not just given out by random. So given that winning something is better than just competing, and it's an achievement that stands the test of time (If we win CL they wouldn't write off previous LC wins would they?) it is progress as it's a big part of football.

Might sound like I'm being overly pedantic but I don't catch your drift. No one is saying if we beat Emirates Marketing Project in the final then we're definitely going to win the league next season, it just doesn't hurt for players to actually follow through for once which is more than they've done before.

Edit - In addition, no a league cup isn't going to elevate the stature of our club to a United or Real Madrid, but it helps demonstrate our ability to win things, it's actual evidence that we can go all the way..Which is progress, is it not?

 

[braineclipse]

You know that a trophy indicates that the squad has won a competition though right? It's not just given out by random. So given that winning something is better than just competing, and it's an achievement that stands the test of time (If we win CL they wouldn't write off previous LC wins would they?) it is progress as it's a big part of football.

Might sound like I'm being overly pedantic but I don't catch your drift. No one is saying if we beat Emirates Marketing Project in the final then we're definitely going to win the league next season, it just doesn't hurt for players to actually follow through for once which is more than they've done before.

Edit - In addition, no a league cup isn't going to elevate the stature of our club to a United or Real Madrid, but it helps demonstrate our ability to win things, it's actual evidence that we can go all the way..Which is progress, is it not?

The thing about domestic cup competitions, particularly the LC is that you can win it by either being lucky or playing well in just a few games really. At least if you're also lucky with draws.

It is an achievement for sure. To me it can be an indication of progress, but it doesn't have to be. We could be more or less of a mess for the rest of the season, fluke the LC final and then finish the season poorly. Is there progress? I'd say no.

We could end the season strongly, get into the top four, win the LC, go far in the EL. Definitely progress.

A cup win like alone doesn't show progress, but it can be a good additional progress to progress elsewhere.

Wigan won the FA cup and got relegated. Is that progress? Now that's the more extreme example, but an example none the less.

 

[MKSpur]

If the players win the League Cup then they will spray some champagne around and have a great evening. I doubt it will convince them one iota that the club are progressing.... as perfectly evidenced by our two best players practically going on strike to get moves to CL teams in the close season after we won this very same trophy (and that was when it came with a place in the Europa League instead of the new third rate minnow UEFA competition).

Thing is when we finally got CL, or at least regular CL players or the press then started to talk about ‘winning stuff’.

The financial benefits of CL tied into their contracts must have much more of a financial impact than any League cup win bonus. I’m not sure a player would ever swap a cup win for one season of CL, but I’m also doubt it would create any extra loyalty to the club should the opportunity to play on the CL arise post that success if we don’t get back into it?

If we do win the Europa that would be two birds with one stone though! Then the narrative will be Kane wants to win leagues or CL..

 

[parklane1]

See my comment "it's also a sign of progress (not in isolation, but combined with the consistency of PL results, European participation, etc.)"

Still kills me that anyone associated with Spurs thinks we can scoff at any trophy (we haven't won that many in our history)

It does make one wonder for sure, i will never understand it. Of course the LC is not that important compered to other trophys but it is a sign that we have actually won something. Players play the game to win things ( especially at the top level) of course there are differences in the value of what trophy is more important but ask those City players or of and club if they enjoyed picking up the smaller trophys.

 

[spurspinter1]

The thing about domestic cup competitions, particularly the LC is that you can win it by either being lucky or playing well in just a few games really. At least if you're also lucky with draws.

It is an achievement for sure. To me it can be an indication of progress, but it doesn't have to be. We could be more or less of a mess for the rest of the season, fluke the LC final and then finish the season poorly. Is there progress? I'd say no.

We could end the season strongly, get into the top four, win the LC, go far in the EL. Definitely progress.

A cup win like alone doesn't show progress, but it can be a good additional progress to progress elsewhere.

Wigan won the FA cup and got relegated. Is that progress? Now that's the more extreme example, but an example none the less.

We're not Wigan but I'd guess it was progress for them, a bit of glory / indisputable history for them. That argument seems to suggest that they may not have gotten relegated if they hadn't won the cup, I just don't buy it.

Winning a competition would be progress for us as we have not done it in a long time, simple as for me. It wouldn't save a terrible league campaign or make it worthwhile getting relegated it would simply be an example of us entering a competition and being the victorious as opposed to also rans.

And the talk of how it's easy to win it with a couple of good performances or the luck of the draw....We're only slagging ourselves off or just crying misfortunate by dismissing it as easy or due to luck.

Your example of what progress is, looks like comparing one season to the next and is correct (and a situation no sane Spurs fan would turn down). I'm very wary of how so many just seem to be desperate to be Arsenal under Wenger when they were in decline, getting in to the champions league season upon season isn't the eternal dream, it may be for the coffers it's not the be all and end all.

As a few have said, win a domestic cup and then the naysayers will just state how we've not done the league or Champions league so this debate has to come down to us as individuals and what we hold important. Those views aren't going to change so we'll have this debate until the end of time without really getting anywhere...

 

[braineclipse]

We're not Wigan but I'd guess it was progress for them, a bit of glory / indisputable history for them. That argument seems to suggest that they may not have gotten relegated if they hadn't won the cup, I just don't buy it.

Winning a competition would be progress for us as we have not done it in a long time, simple as for me. It wouldn't save a terrible league campaign or make it worthwhile getting relegated it would simply be an example of us entering a competition and being the victorious as opposed to also rans.

And the talk of how it's easy to win it with a couple of good performances or the luck of the draw....We're only slagging ourselves off or just crying misfortunate by dismissing it as easy or due to luck.

Your example of what progress is, looks like comparing one season to the next and is correct (and a situation no sane Spurs fan would turn down). I'm very wary of how so many just seem to be desperate to be Arsenal under Wenger when they were in decline, getting in to the champions league season upon season isn't the eternal dream, it may be for the coffers it's not the be all and end all.

As a few have said, win a domestic cup and then the naysayers will just state how we've not done the league or Champions league so this debate has to come down to us as individuals and what we hold important. Those views aren't going to change so we'll have this debate until the end of time without really getting anywhere...

I think it's a very good point you bring up about if we're judging progress season by season or in a larger perspective.

I was talking about more short term progress, season to season. Based on a wider perspective I can see your point more clearly. Thanks.

 

[billyiddo]

Winning a competition would be progress for us as we have not done it in a long time, simple as for me. It wouldn't save a terrible league campaign or make it worthwhile getting relegated it would simply be an example of us entering a competition and being victorious

Well, this is kinda the whole point in a nutshell isn't it? individual tournaments and what they mean in relation to overall progress.

We haven't won the FA Cup since 91, so winning it now (next season ofc) would be an improvement on all those FA Cup campaigns between 91/92 and 21/22, Winning the League Cup this season would be an improvement on every League Cup campaign since 07/08. No more, no less.

personally i view these competitions in isolation, as per my post on the previous page - you measure progress via league and at a push continental performace and then try to win domestic trophies as and when the opportunities arise - the deeper/more expensive your squad, the more regular those opportunities will present themselves.