Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[thfcsteff]

Remind me what has he won?

My respect, our club's massively elevated reputation globally (to the point Levy was able to get the stadium built finally) and consistent Champions League football giving the club an extra, ohhhh, 70 million quid a year on average (I'm sure I've undercooked that figure). Sorry, I know it wasn't a League Cup, but hey, not a bad series of runner-up points eh.

 

[thfcsteff]

P

people who think winning a trophy is the only measure of success has said that. Along the lines of, ‘yeah, poch has some good games and we got to finals and semi finals, but he didn’t win anything’. Loads on here have said similar things.

Don't worry mate, if you know you know!

 

[harr1984]

P

people who think winning a trophy is the only measure of success has said that. Along the lines of, ‘yeah, poch has some good games and we got to finals and semi finals, but he didn’t win anything’. Loads on here have said similar things.

Unfortunately the game is all about winning things - You know, glory glory Tottenham and all that? No one is saying Poch didn’t do a good job here. But the game is all about winning things, that is the point. You don’t see Spurs listing finishing in the top 4 in their honours list or getting to a final. Players want to win things, if you think Kane is going to be happy in twenty years time looking back and telling his kids oh I remember the years where we consistently got top 4, got to a couple of finals and almost won something then you are wrong. It’s why all the ‘Let’s laugh at Arsenal’ type threads were embarrassing when even during their poor periods they have still been collecting trophies, we finish top 4 for a couple of years for the first time in our history and some fans started looking down on Arsenal and Chelsea as if we had surpassed them without actually winning anything - until we start winning trophies more than on a once every twenty year basis we aren’t going to be considered a truly big club....

 

[Baleforce]

P

people who think winning a trophy is the only measure of success has said that. Along the lines of, ‘yeah, poch has some good games and we got to finals and semi finals, but he didn’t win anything’. Loads on here have said similar things.

It’s the leap to saying GG was better that’s lunacy

 

[billyiddo]

Unfortunately the game is all about winning things - You know, glory glory Tottenham and all that? No one is saying Poch didn’t do a good job here. But the game is all about winning things, that is the point. You don’t see Spurs listing finishing in the top 4 in their honours list or getting to a final. Players want to win things, if you think Kane is going to be happy in twenty years time looking back and telling his kids oh I remember the years where we consistently got top 4, got to a couple of finals and almost won something then you are wrong. It’s why all the ‘Let’s laugh at Arsenal’ type threads were embarrassing when even during their poor periods they have still been collecting trophies, we finish top 4 for a couple of years for the first time in our history and some fans started looking down on Arsenal and Chelsea as if we had surpassed them without actually winning anything - until we start winning trophies more than on a once every twenty year basis we aren’t going to be considered a truly big club....

When people take offense to the idea that Poch was a success here that's very much what is being said.

The bulk of your post is of course true but it isn't really relevant to that point (and also same can be said of Jol/Redknapp) the time for the club to win trophies is when it competes financially with those at the top - that time is almost upon us and should we continue with this years level of spending then that's where we are and that's what the measure of success will be. However should we drop back to a buy to sell level of backing then success will be keeping the club in and around the top places of the league. We shall/should strive for more and it won't be enough to keep hold of our star players nor is it worthy of putting on the honors lists, but it will be successful in relation to what we are putting in and keeping the club in a strong position.

 

[harr1984]

When people take offense to the idea that Poch was a success here that's very much what is being said.

The bulk of your post is of course true but it isn't really relevant to that point (and also same can be said of Jol/Redknapp) the time for the club to win trophies is when it competes financially with those at the top - that time is almost upon us and should we continue with this years level of spending then that's where we are and that's what the measure of success will be. However should we drop back to a buy to sell level of backing then success will be keeping the club in and around the top places of the league. We shall/should strive for more and it won't be enough to keep hold of our star players nor is it worthy of putting on the honors lists, but it will be successful in relation to what we are putting in and keeping the club in a strong position.

Agree, Poch bought us to this level and in double quick time. He was a classic example of being a victim of his own success because his coaching got us to be consistent performers in the league and to semi finals and finals - but then often his tactics and some questionable selections that deprived us of lifting a trophy with the games that really matters (personally I was accepting of this because he was still a young manager gaining experience compared to his more experienced rivals, but frustrating nonetheless). It is one of the biggest injustices in modern football in this country that the prime Poch team never won anything.....

 

[thfcsteff]

It’s the leap to saying GG was better that’s lunacy

You know exactly what I was doing with that. Don't pretend otherwise you wiley old coot!!!!

 

[Pirate55]

I was at the away game, so just to add some context (if nobody minds) it was one of the first few games of the season and nobody was racing for anything just yet. Bizarre match. We scored and then gave up the equalizer 60 seconds later. The home game? Their winner would've been disallowed today as Vertonghan was shoved out of the way at the set-piece to allow Huth a free header. We were robbed.

More excuses!

 

[thfcsteff]

More excuses!

Stop moaning all the time!!! Get behind the team and manager!!!!

 

[Pirate55]

When people take offense to the idea that Poch was a success here that's very much what is being said.

I don't think anyone ( least of all me) thinks Poch Mk1 wasn't a success here. That was prime Poch who, whether by luck or design, managed to put together a thrilling, young, hungry team playing wonderful high tempo attractive attacking football.

However, there was regrettably also a Poch MK2. This Poch unfortunately did the following:

1. Write a macaronic book about players still here and espousing a quite ridiculous philosophy including the reason why he thought players would be shamed by being substituted!
2. Presided over a shambolic transfer policy - £320m plus spent on largely wasters since July ? 2016. 27 players bought in his regime - and his coaching failed to develop them. Record buys included Sanchez, Sissoko and NDombele. Failed to refresh our first team by being too loyal to too many players for too long. Had zero succession planning - to allow both Walker and Tripper to be sold without adequate replacements and allowed our only plan B ( Llorente) to go without signing a replacement. Bought a succession of wide players without addressing our core needs.
3. As a supposed great coach, he never developed any of our promising youth academy (with the possible exception of Winks) and allowed many promising youngsters to leave.
4. He made some simply crazy remarks ( e.g. regarding lemons) - and his comment about leaving if we won the CL was stupidly timed and may we'll have cost us the game. Starting an unfit Kane in that game was also a palpable mistake.
5. For the whole of his last year we played dire football and it was virtual relegation form - we failed to win away for almost a year iirc.
6. Finally, he never actually won anything - and indeed has never won anything as a coach. He seemed to believe the FACup and League Cup were beneath him. He couldn't deliver a winning mentality and lost virtually all our crucial games

Poch Mk2 was a disaster and we certainly needed a change. Whether Mourinho is the right man remains to be seen. But I am not prepared to write him off yet until at least the end of next season when we see the direction of travel and he has had adequate opportunity to show us what he might be able to achieve.

 

[Pirate55]

Stop moaning all the time!!! Get behind the team and manager!!!!

Suggest you take your own advice!!!!

 

[thfcsteff]

Suggest you take your own advice!!!!

OK.
But again, stop moaning and just get behind them!!!

 

[Finney Is Back]

Unfortunately the game is all about winning things - You know, glory glory Tottenham and all that? No one is saying Poch didn’t do a good job here. But the game is all about winning things, that is the point. You don’t see Spurs listing finishing in the top 4 in their honours list or getting to a final. Players want to win things, if you think Kane is going to be happy in twenty years time looking back and telling his kids oh I remember the years where we consistently got top 4, got to a couple of finals and almost won something then you are wrong. It’s why all the ‘Let’s laugh at Arsenal’ type threads were embarrassing when even during their poor periods they have still been collecting trophies, we finish top 4 for a couple of years for the first time in our history and some fans started looking down on Arsenal and Chelsea as if we had surpassed them without actually winning anything - until we start winning trophies more than on a once every twenty year basis we aren’t going to be considered a truly big club....

There are a few very important things to consider when deciding whether or not Poch was a ‘success’ here. Trophies is one of them but I think in many ways Poch was a victim of his own success there, in that he finally had us challenging at the top end of the league and therefore couldn’t rest players in the league games to prioritise the cups. Consider the wage bills of the clubs we were competing with.... I think most were operating at 2 times ours. This means they have squads deeper on quality. They can go into those important games towards the end of the season far fitter and fresher than we can. I think when Jol almost got us in fourth that year we exited both cups early, this meant we only really had to worry about the 38 games and used that advantage.

If Poch had been a short term manager he could’ve sacrificed the league position for League and/or FA Cup success. However he (and Levy) knew that this wouldn’t transform the club. This wouldn’t increase our revenue to allow us to compete on a more equal footing to the rest of the big 6 (who were further away from us with their finances than we were to the likes of Everton and West Ham below us). Poch knew that the way to win those trophies is by getting into the CL every year, increasing the revenue (sponsorship, gate, broadcasting and prize) and then being able to use that revenue to have a bigger better squad that allows the club to both stay in the CL positions AND be able to win some Cups.

The problem was that the stadium obviously went massively over budget and that money (earned by Poch through the unexpected CL qualifications) along with other money probably initially earmarked for the first team had to instead be put towards the overspend on the stadium.

Now consider if Poch had taken the personal glory option and gone all out for the Cups instead of the league.... We may well have had a trophy or two.... or even maybe three. However our sponsorship deals would be lower, our income WAY lower and we’d now have over a billion £ of debt and might be looking at potential insolvency (although I guess instead of that we’d simply have an even lower wage bill and long term mid table mediocrity).

Poch’s success at Spurs was allowing Levy to build the stadium without bankrupting the club. I’d say that is a huge level of success. Had the stadium come in on budget then I think he would’ve won trophies during the build as well but that’s just speculation.

 

[StephenH]

we need a poll

Keep?
Sack?
etc

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I’d say on the basis there are so few trophies to win that success is simply progress on the previous incumbent
Poch progressed on his predecessor
The club is now in a better place is arguably the team isn’t currently (short term)
That’s why he was a success IMO

 

[Jurgen the German]

When people take offense to the idea that Poch was a success here that's very much what is being said.

The bulk of your post is of course true but it isn't really relevant to that point (and also same can be said of Jol/Redknapp) the time for the club to win trophies is when it competes financially with those at the top - that time is almost upon us and should we continue with this years level of spending then that's where we are and that's what the measure of success will be. However should we drop back to a buy to sell level of backing then success will be keeping the club in and around the top places of the league. We shall/should strive for more and it won't be enough to keep hold of our star players nor is it worthy of putting on the honors lists, but it will be successful in relation to what we are putting in and keeping the club in a strong position.

He’s one of the best managers in the game at the moment, no question. I stop short however of calling him the best as his peers have won trophies plural, consistently. Guardiola has won the league in multiple countries and has transformed the way clubs he managed play. Simeone won La Liga against Barca and Madrid with less resources. Klopp won back to back titles in Germany against Bayern again with less resources and won the double in one of those seasons. Now he has won the CL and the premier league. Those three managers for me are undoubtedly better managers for me.

I give Poch enormous credit for having us challenging. Unfortunately for him and us, we couldn’t get over the line in the big games. No matter how many of those games we played, we never seemed to take anything away or learn from them. 2017/18 we lost to Juve despite being the better side, then a few months later we flopped big time in the semi final of the FA cup against United. Poch and the players never seemed to do anything to arrest the slide. No one got hold of things on the pitch. I think he needs to address his phobia of subs. They’re a useful tool, he really needs to stop thinking of them as crushing players. Tactically I always felt he was lacking in the big moments or he froze.

 

[Legohamster]

Im not sure that’s true, I saw Poch reign as successful above winning league cups. I take it over Ramos and Graham.

I think actions change perceptions, if you sack Poch I expect it for better and a purpose. His sacking set the expectations

You reckon? Two games and you’ve won a trophy? Doesn’t seem far off to me. (Especially when you could draw both and win on penalties.)

No, 2 games isn’t close to winning anything

if you said that near anyone that’s successful they would laugh at you.

 

[billyiddo]

He’s one of the best managers in the game at the moment, no question. I stop short however of calling him the best as his peers have won trophies plural, consistently. Guardiola has won the league in multiple countries and has transformed the way clubs he managed play. Simeone won La Liga against Barca and Madrid with less resources. Klopp won back to back titles in Germany against Bayern again with less resources and won the double in one of those seasons. Now he has won the CL and the premier league. Those three managers for me are undoubtedly better managers for me.

I give Poch enormous credit for having us challenging. Unfortunately for him and us, we couldn’t get over the line in the big games. No matter how many of those games we played, we never seemed to take anything away or learn from them. 2017/18 we lost to Juve despite being the better side, then a few months later we flopped big time in the semi final of the FA cup against United. Poch and the players never seemed to do anything to arrest the slide. No one got hold of things on the pitch. I think he needs to address his phobia of subs. They’re a useful tool, he really needs to stop thinking of them as crushing players. Tactically I always felt he was lacking in the big moments or he froze.

How do you get to the final of the CL without getting over the line in big games?

Of course the response will be that eventually he lost out in the biggest game of them all but that kinda ignores the steps taken to get there in the first place - and if you're going to hold that opinion then truly the only big games he lost out in were the CL final and the LC final which will obviously contradict the point entirely and boil it down to my initial point - people are saying trophies are the only measure of success and fudge context.

 

[Legohamster]

He’s one of the best managers in the game at the moment, no question. I stop short however of calling him the best as his peers have won trophies plural, consistently. Guardiola has won the league in multiple countries and has transformed the way clubs he managed play. Simeone won La Liga against Barca and Madrid with less resources. Klopp won back to back titles in Germany against Bayern again with less resources and won the double in one of those seasons. Now he has won the CL and the premier league. Those three managers for me are undoubtedly better managers for me.

I give Poch enormous credit for having us challenging. Unfortunately for him and us, we couldn’t get over the line in the big games. No matter how many of those games we played, we never seemed to take anything away or learn from them. 2017/18 we lost to Juve despite being the better side, then a few months later we flopped big time in the semi final of the FA cup against United. Poch and the players never seemed to do anything to arrest the slide. No one got hold of things on the pitch. I think he needs to address his phobia of subs. They’re a useful tool, he really needs to stop thinking of them as crushing players. Tactically I always felt he was lacking in the big moments or he froze.

bielsa is one of the best managers in the game and is held up as a man who pep/Klopp/Mopo all model themselves on to a degree - however he has failed to adapt his tactics and has won next to nothing in the past 20 years in club football - with the same thing cited everytime


The squad ran out of steam - as it did with Mopo.


Leeds will go up this year, but there was a real chance they could have choked again without the break to let the players recharge.

Mopo needs to adapt or will end up the same way.

 

[billyiddo]

I don't think anyone ( least of all me) thinks Poch Mk1 wasn't a success here. That was prime Poch who, whether by luck or design, managed to put together a thrilling, young, hungry team playing wonderful high tempo attractive attacking football.

However, there was regrettably also a Poch MK2. This Poch unfortunately did the following:

1. Write a macaronic book about players still here and espousing a quite ridiculous philosophy including the reason why he thought players would be shamed by being substituted!
2. Presided over a shambolic transfer policy - £320m plus spent on largely wasters since July ? 2016. 27 players bought in his regime - and his coaching failed to develop them. Record buys included Sanchez, Sissoko and NDombele. Failed to refresh our first team by being too loyal to too many players for too long. Had zero succession planning - to allow both Walker and Tripper to be sold without adequate replacements and allowed our only plan B ( Llorente) to go without signing a replacement. Bought a succession of wide players without addressing our core needs.
3. As a supposed great coach, he never developed any of our promising youth academy (with the possible exception of Winks) and allowed many promising youngsters to leave.
4. He made some simply crazy remarks ( e.g. regarding lemons) - and his comment about leaving if we won the CL was stupidly timed and may we'll have cost us the game. Starting an unfit Kane in that game was also a palpable mistake.
5. For the whole of his last year we played dire football and it was virtual relegation form - we failed to win away for almost a year iirc.
6. Finally, he never actually won anything - and indeed has never won anything as a coach. He seemed to believe the FACup and League Cup were beneath him. He couldn't deliver a winning meteorology and lost virtually all our crucial games

Poch Mk2 was a disaster and we certainly needed a change. Whether Mourinho is the right man remains to be seen. But I am not prepared to write him off yet until at least the end of next season when we see the direction of travel and he has had adequate opportunity to show us what he might be able to achieve.

You can look at any manager in the game and write a similar list of things they get wrong, the longer they are at one club the longer that list will be - it's the overall picture that is important not the details of every action taken.

What you should also remember is that as a manager Poch was very much still in his early years, Klopp at the same point had won fudge all for example, essentially he was learning on the job with us but rather than cut him slack when things got tough you and others cut him loose. Despite the difficult circumstances he was working under.


Edit: a little context for you regarding your much lauded 320m spend - in the last calender year we have spent 160m, 50% of the 320m you are holding up as proof of backing spent in one year... now split whats left over the 5 year period prior and then consider what our rivals spend on average and then tell me whether that still constitutes backing.