Johan Lange - Technical Director

[Jordinho]

Agree with most of that, but I will just point out that there are multiple ways you can do data-driven signings. If a player is a superstar and all the metrics point to him making an impact in the side, then he's the data-backed candidate, even if he costs a lot.

The way we seem to think of data-driven is more in 'identifying value' - i.e, the player who would most benefit us is too expensive, but here's a player who meets some of the metrics while being cheaper. So, 'greater value'.

The motivation behind employing 'data-driven' scouting matters. If your aim is to use data to build a great side, that will show. If your aim is to build a cheap side, that will show too - be that cheap in terms of transfer fees, or (more pertinently) wages.

Since we only have a small sample size and none of us really know which players we were looking at and what metrics were considered important, it's really easy to make an argument for whatever you want. I think we've overpaid considerably for some of the players we've brought in, but maybe they were ones we really wanted.

 

[thfcsteff]

Since we only have a small sample size and none of us really know which players we were looking at and what metrics were considered important, it's really easy to make an argument for whatever you want. I think we've overpaid considerably for some of the players we've brought in, but maybe they were ones we really wanted.

There is no doubt that we had Eze had we moved swiftly at the close of the season. Quite similar to Diaz in some ways. But we simply won't do deals of that kind, so probably more fool me for continuing to expect that we might?!!!

 

[Muttley]

There is no doubt that we had Eze had we moved swiftly at the close of the season. Quite similar to Diaz in some ways. But we simply won't do deals of that kind, so probably more fool me for continuing to expect that we might?!!!

Was it perhaps the Brentford move for Gray that changed our summer direction. It seems that Spurs had made their mind up he was becoming one of our own either in January or next summer.

We did the same with Diaz at Pool. That forced Klopp's hand.

After that outlay for Gray, we seemed to have a re-think on what we were going to do with the rest. I totally respect Spurs for playing the long game with these kids though. Eze would have been great, and still could be, but did he really play in a priority position?

 

[Grays_1890]

There is no doubt that we had Eze had we moved swiftly at the close of the season. Quite similar to Diaz in some ways. But we simply won't do deals of that kind, so probably more fool me for continuing to expect that we might?!!!

Same, I just don't think Levy will allow the upfront fee and or the wages.

Seems to me they are cutting wages now to secure investment aka "look at the books, look how streamlined we are"

Just my opinion

 

[DubSpur]

There is no doubt that we had Eze had we moved swiftly at the close of the season. Quite similar to Diaz in some ways. But we simply won't do deals of that kind, so probably more fool me for continuing to expect that we might?!!!

We weren't getting Eze and Solanke. Solanke was more important. There's a reason that nobody made a move for Eze, nobody is paying almost all of a 60m fee up front and Palace had no need to sell once the buyout clause was gone.

It's different to Diaz. We made a move and as soon as we did Liverpool came in and the player wanted to go to Liverpool.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We weren't getting Eze and Solanke. Solanke was more important. There's a reason that nobody made a move for Eze, nobody is paying almost all of a 60m fee up front and Palace had no need to sell once the buyout clause was gone.

It's different to Diaz. We made a move and as soon as we did Liverpool came in and the player wanted to go to Liverpool.

Eze will go next summer if he has another season like last
I think people will have seen an element of risk with him

 

[Gutter Boy]

Eze will go next summer if he has another season like last
I think people will have seen an element of risk with him

He'll be 27 by then and on a long contract. That will limit his suitors. I expect he'll go to City though

 

[braineclipse]

I'll say one thing about this guy - I get the feeling he was hired more because Levy likes the way he works than for any intrinsic talent at building a team. Freely admit it's just a hunch on my end, but the signs are there, imo.

There was a moment under Paratici where I felt we were breaking the mould in terms of the way we operated and the players we signed. They were either unexpected deals we didn't typically do (Kulusevski and Bentancur from Juve), underrated players from leagues we didn't typically buy from (Vicario, Udogie) or actually attempts at highly rated signings with a lot of competition (Romero, Porro). In other words, we shopped in markets we didn't typically shop in.

We also changed the way we approached and convinced players, were much more media-friendly with our transfers, and generally worked in ways the top clubs work when making signings.

All that changed this summer. Suddenly we were back to taking months and months to make major signings, signing mostly low-wage, high-potential players from familiar markets in the British Isles (with the accompanying price tags), working in 'silence' and swiftly moving on when facing competition for players. In other words, we went back to acting in the way we know, from historical experience, Levy likes to act. Even if it's 20 years out of date in terms of how clubs act these days.

Now, I am making absolutely no predictions for how Lange's signings will turn out - Odobert, Gray, Solanke. May turn out great, may turn out crap, I don't have enough info to judge yet, so I won't.

But observing the way he does things, he seems more aligned to what Levy wants than the way Paratici worked. And personally, I think that's a very bad thing. But, early days, and maybe there's a hidden side to this bloke we haven't seen yet.

Weren't there similar criticism of Paratici at the time?

Bentancur, Kulusevski and Porro all happening right at the end of windows? Paratici just signing familiar players from familiar markets (for him from Italy)?

We did go young this summer with most of our signings. But then so did Paratici with Udogie and Sarr for example. Wasn't Paratici/Levy criticised for signing players for the future and not for the here and now with them too?

Odobert was unexpected for sure. Another slightly under the radar player.

Been reported quite credibly that Barca wanted Bergvall, that Bayern wanted Dragusin. A lot of clubs were at least looking at Gray and a criticism of the old mould has been not signing the best young players from the Championship.

For me at least, looking at our transfer business under different managers and with and without a DoF in place it seems rather clear that Levy gives quite a bit of leeway to whoever is operating at any given time. He hired Paratici, probably knowing quite a bit about him. He hired Conte and Mourinho, knowing a lot about them. I don't think he's in the habit of hiring people because they'll just do as he wants.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Weren't there similar criticism of Paratici at the time?

Bentancur, Kulusevski and Porro all happening right at the end of windows? Paratici just signing familiar players from familiar markets (for him from Italy)?

We did go young this summer with most of our signings. But then so did Paratici with Udogie and Sarr for example. Wasn't Paratici/Levy criticised for signing players for the future and not for the here and now with them too?

Odobert was unexpected for sure. Another slightly under the radar player.

Been reported quite credibly that Barca wanted Bergvall, that Bayern wanted Dragusin. A lot of clubs were at least looking at Gray and a criticism of the old mould has been not signing the best young players from the Championship.

For me at least, looking at our transfer business under different managers and with and without a DoF in place it seems rather clear that Levy gives quite a bit of leeway to whoever is operating at any given time. He hired Paratici, probably knowing quite a bit about him. He hired Conte and Mourinho, knowing a lot about them. I don't think he's in the habit of hiring people because they'll just do as he wants.

no successful leader does that
They hire the right guy even if they know they will challenge them

 

[Yiddo]

Everyone was raving about the signings of Bentancur, Kulu, Porro and said it was a breath of fresh air, the same with Bergval, Gray, Dragusin etc now it seems the approach is being criticised due to our on field performances. Its funny how the narrative changes so frequently.

 

[billyiddo]

We weren't getting Eze and Solanke. Solanke was more important. There's a reason that nobody made a move for Eze, nobody is paying almost all of a 60m fee up front and Palace had no need to sell once the buyout clause was gone.

It's different to Diaz. We made a move and as soon as we did Liverpool came in and the player wanted to go to Liverpool.

Might have got both if Richarlson was sold

 

[DeanoAustin]

Everyone was raving about the signings of Bentancur, Kulu, Porro and said it was a breath of fresh air, the same with Bergval, Gray, Dragusin etc now it seems the approach is being criticised due to our on field performances. Its funny how the narrative changes so frequently.

Kulu and Bentancur - yes. On Porro, I remember Levy and the club getting pelters for the length of time it took to do the deal - "just pay the money and sign the player Conte wants FFS".

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Might have got both if Richarlson was sold

Should be if Richy would leave as much as being sold …

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Everyone was raving about the signings of Bentancur, Kulu, Porro and said it was a breath of fresh air, the same with Bergval, Gray, Dragusin etc now it seems the approach is being criticised due to our on field performances. Its funny how the narrative changes so frequently.

The mental gymnastics are never far away....goes with the swing in emotions.

Which is fair enough, as football is an emotional game, BUT, seriously, how long and how deeply does one want to think about something?

 

[Surfless]

as long as there are keyboard warriors out there, and football remains so polarising, its going to happen.

 

[parklane1]

Everyone was raving about the signings of Bentancur, Kulu, Porro and said it was a breath of fresh air, the same with Bergval, Gray, Dragusin etc now it seems the approach is being criticised due to our on field performances. Its funny how the narrative changes so frequently.

Fickle fans, who would have thought that we have them as well as other clubs.

 

[Surfless]

Fickle fans, who would have thought that we have them as well as other clubs.

I've never been to a ground where there hasn't been a bloke shouting that x or y player is sh-ite, even if he's scored a hattrick.

Add that trait to a faceless internet world and its no wonder we get such a large number of fickle sorts.

 

[Grays_1890]

as long as there are keyboard warriors out there, and football remains so polarising, its going to happen.

Lange likely signed those that are on an agreed policy aka youth with a view to the future. Ange says he wanted Solanke and so the club or Lange or both delivered.

I'm gonna wait longer than two windows to draw massive conclusions yet.

I've drawn the conclusion that some just like to moan

 

[parklane1]

I've never been to a ground where there hasn't been a bloke shouting that x or y player is sh-ite, even if he's scored a hattrick.

Add that trait to a faceless internet world and its no wonder we get such a large number of fickle sorts.

Indeed its always been the way at grounds [ and i have been going to them since 62], what [as you say] is the biggest problem is that social media is full of arseholes, nutters and idiots who can not wait to slag everything and everyone off.

Except on here of course.

 

[braineclipse]

Everyone was raving about the signings of Bentancur, Kulu, Porro and said it was a breath of fresh air, the same with Bergval, Gray, Dragusin etc now it seems the approach is being criticised due to our on field performances. Its funny how the narrative changes so frequently.

Bentancur and Kulusevski got a lot of positive attention when they rather quickly started playing well.

When they were signed, before they started playing it was more mixed. Signing Juve rejects, Paratici only signing players he had already signed before etc.

Questioning the signings from this summer at this point makes no sense to me.

We did go young, but Ange has said they were signed for what they can do now too. Let's see what they can actually do over a bit of time. Bergvall and Gray not coming on, Odobert not starting, in the NLD doesn't mean they won't be good for us this season. Luckily more than 4 games in a season.