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ITK Thread

alekaras said:
So how long do you think it ought to take a coach to build a competitive team having first to clean up house and then build a team using young talent?
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Don't know, haven't thought about a comparable example to draw a precedent from. However, it would help us all (and help Poch) if we a) didn't drop points due to off-pitch issues, and b) gave Poch the tools he needs to shape this young team. The longer he doesn't have the team he wants, the longer the period during which judging him seems unfair. And yet, despite that, we have to start judging him at some point. We can't hide behind 'building seasons' forever.

I gave Poch last year, completely free of judgement on his decisions, his tactics or his philosophies. I'm willing to do the same this year as well, if necessary. However, I (personally, without any reference point to call on, as mentioned earlier) can't see myself doing the same next year as well. Next year at most, the expectations have to come, and he has to be judged on them, whether or not he gets the players he needs and the team he wants. Would you consider that overly unreasonable?
 
DubaiSpur said:
Don't know, haven't thought about a comparable example to draw a precedent from. However, it would help us all (and help Poch) if we a) didn't drop points due to off-pitch issues, and b) gave Poch the tools he needs to shape this young team. The longer he doesn't have the team he wants, the longer the period during which judging him seems unfair. And yet, despite that, we have to start judging him at some point. We can't hide behind 'building seasons' forever.

I gave Poch last year, completely free of judgement on his decisions, his tactics or his philosophies. I'm willing to do the same this year as well, if necessary. However, I (personally, without any reference point to call on, as mentioned earlier) can't see myself doing the same next year as well. Next year at most, the expectations have to come, and he has to be judged on them, whether or not he gets the players he needs and the team he wants. Would you consider that overly unreasonable?
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Well, when you say "I don't care if he has the players he needs, I expect him to win games," isn't that unreasonable?

What would be reasonable is if you examined the squad he has and made a fair determination of what to expect.

What would also be reasonable would be to look at the performances in the first 4 games, irrespective of the end result, and make a determination if they were better than last year, which I personally think they were (with the exception of the Leicester match).

And what would be most reasonable would be to wait at least until midway through the season before saying "how long do I have to wait to see some results?"

Technically, this is Poch's first year. Last year was evaluation and clean-up. So let's give the guy half a season, no?
 
alekaras said:
Well, when you say "I don't care if he has the players he needs, I expect him to win games," isn't that unreasonable?

What would be reasonable is if you examined the squad he has and made a fair determination of what to expect.

What would also be reasonable would be to look at the performances in the first 4 games, irrespective of the end result, and make a determination if they were better than last year, which I personally think they were (with the exception of the Leicester match).

And what would be most reasonable would be to wait at least until midway through the season before saying "how long do I have to wait to see some results?"

Technically, this is Poch's first year. Last year was evaluation and clean-up. So let's give the guy half a season, no?
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Well, like I said, I don't think Poch has the squad he wants just yet. And hence, if it's really necessary, I'm willing to write off this season as well, if it comes to it (after all, we've already dropped nine points after four games). However, after this season, that doesn't really gel as an excuse either, given that Poch will have had four transfer windows to shape his squad (five by the time the next season starts, a total of seven-odd months with a month left in next season's window), and at that point an unfinished squad is more a reflection of either his indecision or his relative spinelessness than it is of Levy's transfer dealings. Past that point, even if Poch doesn't have his squad in place, I think expectations have to be placed on him and results measured against his relative worth to the club, with a decision to part ways placed on the table should Poch fail to meet those expectations.

This isn't Poch's first year, as much as it is tempting to think of it as such. He settled on 'his' squad by roughly January last season, and the same team is still largely in evidence this season, so he clearly got some work done in 2014/2015 as well. And while the performances over the first four games this season have been better than the majority of the ones in the corresponding first four games of last season...imo, they aren't a patch on the best four games of last season, i.e the ones around late December/early January, and the Arsenal game after that. And, furthermore, I do think our performance in the QPR game (second one last season) was better than the Stoke game this season, so it isn't even a clear improvement there.

Like I said, if necessary, I'm willing to give Poch this season as well, to chalk down as a 'rebuilding' season. But given the realities mentioned above...I think that's the limit when it comes to letting him ride without expectations placed on him.
 
Not at all surprised we have failed to sign players we badly needed yet again. This has been the main weakness in Levy's transfer policy all along. He always wait until the last min to buy the players we want and in the process fail to sign anyone ! Now without a defensive midfielder or another reliable striker we badly needed, it is going to affect Pochettino and his team badly this season.
 
alekaras said:
But Poch wouldn't. What's the point of bringing in a player that doesn't fit the system? So that we can pay him a salary to train with the U21s?
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So Kane won't surely be injured when we he plays 180 minutes a week. Berba would also bring some desperately needed experience to the squad.
 
Spurs7891 said:
Not at all surprised we have failed to sign players we badly needed yet again. This has been the main weakness in Levy's transfer policy all along. He always wait until the last min to buy the players we want and in the process fail to sign anyone ! Now without a defensive midfielder or another reliable striker we badly needed, it is going to affect Pochettino and his team badly this season.
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Spot on. If Poch manages to get anything more than 7th place with this squad without ignoring all the cups he's a genius. Levy expect CL witout any backing, so he will let him go. In one year Poch and Lloris will surely be gone, probably Eriksen and Possibly Kane. We will then have to start all over again.
 
E3zzle said:
So Kane won't surely be injured when we he plays 180 minutes a week. Berba would also bring some desperately needed experience to the squad.
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I seriously doubt he'll feature in every single game, including cups and EL, this season. And as I said in another thread, with the additions of N'jie, Son, Alli, and Pritchard there are plenty of goals between them to go around. These are all double-digit goal scorers, even if they're not out-and-out strikers.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Well, like I said, I don't think Poch has the squad he wants just yet. And hence, if it's really necessary, I'm willing to write off this season as well, if it comes to it (after all, we've already dropped nine points after four games). However, after this season, that doesn't really gel as an excuse either, given that Poch will have had four transfer windows to shape his squad (five by the time the next season starts, a total of seven-odd months with a month left in next season's window), and at that point an unfinished squad is more a reflection of either his indecision or his relative spinelessness than it is of Levy's transfer dealings. Past that point, even if Poch doesn't have his squad in place, I think expectations have to be placed on him and results measured against his relative worth to the club, with a decision to part ways placed on the table should Poch fail to meet those expectations.

This isn't Poch's first year, as much as it is tempting to think of it as such. He settled on 'his' squad by roughly January last season, and the same team is still largely in evidence this season, so he clearly got some work done in 2014/2015 as well. And while the performances over the first four games this season have been better than the majority of the ones in the corresponding first four games of last season...imo, they aren't a patch on the best four games of last season, i.e the ones around late December/early January, and the Ar5ena1 game after that. And, furthermore, I do think our performance in the QPR game (second one last season) was better than the Stoke game this season, so it isn't even a clear improvement there.

Like I said, if necessary, I'm willing to give Poch this season as well, to chalk down as a 'rebuilding' season. But given the realities mentioned above...I think that's the limit when it comes to letting him ride without expectations placed on him.
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But all of the above assumes that Poch gets exactly the players he wants and we know that's not the case, so again you'd be judging him a tad unfairly.

I'm not the biggest Poch fan, but as I said in my previous post, you have to judge him based on what he achieves with the squad he has, not with the squad he would have liked to have. And my question remains the same: based on the current squad, what do you think Poch should be able to achieve? And don't tell me CL, because we all know that is unrealistic.
 
alekaras said:
I seriously doubt he'll feature in every single game, including cups and EL, this season. And as I said in another thread, with the additions of N'jie, Son, Alli, and Pritchard there are plenty of goals between them to go around. These are all double-digit goal scorers, even if they're not out-and-out strikers.
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N'Jie scored seven goals last season in a much weaker league. Pritchard scored 12 in 47 in the second tier. Besides, none of these players can play as a lone striker, so my guess is we're planning on using Kane every single game. Or play Ade. This is the choice we have, it's not even my opinion.
 
I think we need to lower the expectations massively for this season. If not we will put way to much pressure on youngsters with no pl experience. If people expect double figures from clint and son, they might end up turning on them when they don't produce immediately. One of these two will need to spend this season learning to play as a lone striker, and this will take time.

I'll be happy if we manage to get past our el group and are within reach of 6th place by january. It would be madness to expect more imo.
 
E3zzle said:
I think we need to lower the expectations massively for this season. If not we will put way to much pressure on youngsters with no pl experience. If people expect double figures from clint and son, they might end up turning on them when they don't produce immediately. One of these two will need to spend this season learning to play as a lone striker, and this will take time.

I'll be happy if we manage to get past our el group and are within reach of 6th place by january. It would be madness to expect more imo.
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Nah duck that, who ever saw fit to end the transfer window with one striker has gambled that son and Nijie will convert in to a lone striker immediately, if they are right, great we bow to their superior knowledge, and apologize for being such drama queens. But whoever is given that monumental task of converting to a position that they have never played before in a new league with a new language in a new country away from friends and family at a very young age better hit the ground running. Because if they don't, then whoever or rather the whole team that saw fit to end the transfer window with ONE DUCKING STRIKER, heads should be on the line, no time to settle, no excuse, none of what your saying about adjusting expectations- (sure if they are going to adjust ticket prices accordingly, because if because of their ineptitude not to sign a striker, we are then served a inferior product, that should be reflected in the price we pay; that won't happen so our expectations stay the same.

They perform to a good standard from the off otherwise heads should ducking roll, because on the face of it, going into the season with one striker is madness.
 
Daisuk said:
Could Chadli perhaps do a job as a lone striker? He just might.
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I can't see it, he doesn't like to put himself about much on the pitch which up against physical centre backs won't work, he rarely wins headers that someone his height should and his work rate is questionable. In a lone striker system we employ I don't see Chadli working, although he does know how to finish which is something I guess.

I'm thinking N'jie might struggle as a lone striker option as he's not that big physically, Son is a bigger unit so as a backup to Kane I think he is most likely to offer a option. Admittedly I know fairly little on either player.
 
DTA said:
Nah duck that, who ever saw fit to end the transfer window with one striker has gambled that son and Nijie will convert in to a lone striker immediately, if they are right, great we bow to their superior knowledge, and apologize for being such drama queens. But whoever is given that monumental task of converting to a position that they have never played before in a new league with a new language in a new country away from friends and family at a very young age better hit the ground running. Because if they don't, then whoever or rather the whole team that saw fit to end the transfer window with ONE DUCKING STRIKER, heads should be on the line, no time to settle, no excuse, none of what your saying about adjusting expectations- (sure if they are going to adjust ticket prices accordingly, because if because of their ineptitude not to sign a striker, we are then served a inferior product, that should be reflected in the price we pay; that won't happen so our expectations stay the same.

They perform to a good standard from the off otherwise heads should ducking roll, because on the face of it, going into the season with one striker is madness.
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The clubs with one striker seems to be a trend in the EPL this season.
WBA have 4..........;)
 
E3zzle said:
N'Jie scored seven goals last season in a much weaker league. Pritchard scored 12 in 47 in the second tier. Besides, none of these players can play as a lone striker, so my guess is we're planning on using Kane every single game. Or play Ade. This is the choice we have, it's not even my opinion.
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But it IS your opinion. People have already said NJie, Son, Chadli or Lamela can play up front. Oh look, someone has a different opinion. In fact, you'd have to be pretty stupid to think Kane will play every single game, and that's not even my opinion.
 
  • GrimsbyYid said:
    But it IS your opinion. People have already said NJie, Son, Chadli or Lamela can play up front. Oh look, someone has a different opinion. In fact, you'd have to be pretty stupid to think Kane will play every single game, and that's not even my opinion.
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ok, and if they are right, and who ever is given that responsibility plays to a good standard in the new position fair play...... But if they are wrong can we agree there should be no excuses, and heads should roll?
 
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