General Transfer Rumour Discussion Thread

[braineclipse]

The biggest issue with this transfer window is quite simple: we have seemingly passed on numerous players we could've afforded and who ended up at clubs with less financial clout and arguably prestige than we have. Just look at the list of players who went for fairly modest prices (by today's standards) that would've been contenders for starting XI places this Saturday against United for us: Cabaye, Clasie, Imbula, Suarez, Ayew, Payet, Wijnaldum, Konoplyanka, and soon, Aranguiz. There's some serious quality in that mix of players (and many who would fit the criteria of Pochettino's high press system), all went for less than 16 million pounds of transfer fees, and they all ended up at clubs with wage bills significantly smaller than ours. So why did we pass on all of them? I have a hard time imagining we had an interest in any of them and they just didn't want to move to us. Alternatively, it seems that there was an undercurrent among some fans that perhaps we had better players lined up, which struck me as wishful thinking. We are working within the confines of a transfer policy where you can't spend more than you bring in via sales, and even if you're sitting on a 25 million pound surplus, it's unlikely that Levy will spend that on August 31st on a single player.

Being a contender for a starting spot against United is not a good enough reason to buy a player.

People seemingly want first choice upgrades for the "front 4", but we had the youngest team in Europe (tm) last season and of the front 4 the oldest first choice player is Chadli who turned 26 this week. People call for consistency, and through consistency there's a very good chance players like Chadli, Eriksen, Lamela and Kane will continue developing. Bringing in more players at a similar (or perhaps slightly lower) level without massive potential to develop is not going to be a great long term solution I think.

We've already brought back Pritchard, Alli has joined us and we other youngsters in Veljkovic, Carroll and Winks knocking on the door. A part of our strategy is to develop these young players. That means trusting some of these youngsters with game time, and that means that overstocking on players who may or may not warrant a starting spot against United could be outright detrimental to our player development - and thus also a key overall strategy for our club. We're not City or Chelsea, we're not bringing in or developing high profile young players just to keep them out on loan or in the development squad as chances are given to new signings. This is not a way to compete with clubs with a bigger budget than ours.

I think we need one more attacking midfielder trio in the 4-2-3-1 where we looked short on competition and cover last year. Pritchard coming in along with Alli potentially an option for the no.10 role already increases our options. But we're not in desperate need of numbers. One signing will do. Yarmolenko could be that player, I have no idea if he's a better option than those listed by you.

 

[NWND]

We are still looking for a DM. Apparently a good one, too. How does that fit into the idea that we're happy to trust in Bentaleb when it comes to the DM position? I certainly don't see Bentaleb as a holding player, anyway (we've had that conversation as well): but the very fact that we're still looking for a DM after shifting bargain-bin Stambo is indicative of our continuing desire to see a quality midfielder step into that DM position. Bentaleb will become one in time (albeit a box-to-box midfielder more than a 'pure' DM, imo) , but given our defensive frailties, we need one now. We also needed one last summer. We went for one, made an unbelievably derisory bid to start the process off, and then ran away when it was rejected, consoling ourselves with a cheap player Poch clearly didn't want in any capacity. Suffice it to say, I don't consider that a sensible sequence of events at all. And I'm somewhat surprised that you still seem to believe that Poch wanted anything to do with Stambo.

That's not how it went down at all though, we didn't make a derisory bid, what a total load of nonsense. Neither did we just run away when it was rejected. Pretty much everyone in the press and all the ITK's agree that what happened was, we'd pretty much agreed a deal for Schneiderlin, the player had been told he could join us, we were confident of getting him, but then they sold Chambers to Arsenal and Koeman pretty much gave them an ultimatum saying he'd walk if any more players were sold. It put Southampton and Schneiderlin in an impossible situation. The deal died. Schneiderlin tried to keep it alive by kicking up a fairly public fuss and even publically announced that he'd been f***ed over by Southampton on his twitter feed.

 

[parklane1]

@parklane1 : I read your post quite thoroughly, including the relevant bits about Levy and mistakes. At the end, I disregarded everything in it, the same way you seem to mostly ignore the actual content of most relevant posts and steadfastly cling to your 'broken record' rubbish when hastily rushing to endlessly berate the people who do hold differing opinions of the chairman. If you can misrepresent criticism of Levy as wanting Poch out as well, I can damn well misrepresent you as being a mechanical zealot who hero-worships Levy to the point of mania.

The point I was trying to make ( sorry you could not fathom that out?), is that there are some fans who just like to bitch and it sometimes does not matter what the cause is. And you say you read my post thoroughly but decided to disregard it, well I do not take you for a stupid man so I can only assume that it does not fit your agenda against Levy.

I have no problem with those who do not like Levy, the problem is those who blame him all the time for everything without any real proof except for something they have read in the press ( which is mostly nothing but rumours). Again I say he has made mistakes but whether you like it or not you ARE like a broken record with you constant slagging off on Levy and its tiresome to many.

 

[DubaiSpur]

That's not how it went down at all though, we didn't make a derisory bid, what a total load of nonsense. Neither did we just run away when it was rejected. Pretty much everyone in the press and all the ITK's agree that what happened was, we'd pretty much agreed a deal for Schneiderlin, the player had been told he could join us, we were confident of getting him, but then they sold Chambers to Ar5ena1 and Koeman pretty much gave them an ultimatum saying he'd walk if any more players were sold. It put Southampton and Schneiderlin in an impossible situation. The deal died. Schneiderlin tried to keep it alive by kicking up a fairly public fuss and even publically announced that he'd been f***ed over by Southampton on his twitter feed.

We made a 10 million pound bid. You were definitely around when I explained that, in minute detail (used this link as one of the sources, I believe: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...uthampton-midfielder-Morgan-Schneiderlin.html) . It was summarily rejected. This was also something I explained in detail. That's not how it went down at all, mate.

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

Again, I don't disagree with most of what you say: we don't shop in that market, absolutely. I only used that list to illustrate that, generally, more expensive players will have a higher success rate than less expensive ones. If I could cement that fact by finding a table of free transfers/nominal fees and putting that out there for discussion(with the intention of proving that less expensive players have higher failure rates), I would: unfortunately, I don't even think that's possible to do. Still, the point I was making was that the prices that the market sets are (generally, allowing for significant variation) the right ones: not that we should shop exclusively in that top 100 bracket.

Where I feel we routinely fail as a club is in occasionally accepting extraneous values, and in pushing the boat past the cheaper option to the more expensive buy at crucial times. By extraneous values, I mean the intrinsic worth a player has to our manager, not necessarily to either our chairman or our scouting team: for example, I don't think there was any doubt about Schneiderlin being Poch's primary target last summer (along with Rodriguez), and despite that the club decided to forgo bidding for him and gave Poch Stambouli instead. Stambouli (objectively) isn't a bad player: he may even really be the low-cost alternative to Schneiderlin that the club probably thought he was when getting him in. But Poch never played him, rarely used him in any capacity and disinterestedly sold him on just a year after his arrival. Think of the difference Schneiderlin would have made to our 14/15 season, instead of the low-cost alternative that Poch ended up getting and hardly using because his valuation of said low-cost option didn't match his valuation of his primary target. Think of the difference Villa, Hulk or Moutinho could have made to AVB's 12-13 and 13-14 seasons. Think of the difference a real defender and striker (worth actual transfer fees) would have made to our (then) title-chasing side in January 2012, instead of Ryan Nelsen and Louis Saha. Think of the difference Eto'o and Villa could have made in 2008-2009, instead of Pav and Fraizer Campbell.These players were all passed over in favour of the cheaper options, and we have suffered for it, imo. And it isn't like these players are in the Top 100 list, beyond our reach: in all these cases, these players were ones eminently within our ability to acquire them at the time, but were passed over in favour of the cheap, value signings that ended up costing Ramos, Harry and AVB their jobs. They all came out afterwards and criticized this habit of the club: and, looking back, they were all absolutely right, even if we scoffed at their individual claims when they made them.

I'm quite enjoying this with you Dubai!

I do understand the point that you are making, but my issue with that is that there is the supposition that we are/were actually after those players. I'm not sure that I believe that it is "Levy's penny pinching ways" that is to blame for us not getting players. No doubt he drives a hard bargain, but that's because he has to. We are after a certain calibre of player that don't come cheap. I think our focus has to be on better scouting to unearth the talents, not on spending more in the transfer market. Yes, buying the right player at the right time could really have accelerated and improved the team. However, sometimes buying the wrong player at the wrong time can completely change the performances as well and disrupt the harmony of a team. Let's face it, if it were easy getting these things right you wonder why all teams just don't do it!

The point re Stambouli. Who's to say that Pochettino didn't want him, but early on realised that actually he was not the player that he thought he was. It wouldn't be the first time that a player coming from abroad just does not perform. We have just acted earlier in cutting our losses rather than have a Gomes, Bentley or Dos Santos on our hands.

As NWND says, signing lots of players does not guarantee anything!

 

[Lost Mango]

Cabaye, Clasie, Imbula, Suarez, Ayew, Konoplyanka...all either DMs or left-wingers, positions we definitely need to strengthen in. I think you've done the man an injustice, NWND.

But presumably our scouting team, the black box and a filo of algorithms have concluded that for some reason or other that these players (if they were ever really on our radar) were not what we needed. We pay fairly decent money to Mitchell and the recruitment team. Presumably we trust they know more of what is needed and what these players have to offer (plus value for money) that all of us keyboard gurus?

 

[NWND]

We made a 10 million pound bid. You were definitely around when I explained that, in minute detail (used this link as one of the sources, I believe: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...uthampton-midfielder-Morgan-Schneiderlin.html) . It was summarily rejected. This was also something I explained in detail. That's not how it went down at all, mate.

We won't have made a formal offer. That's generally the last thing that is done in a transfer. We were talking to them, no doubt. We might have asked if a £10m deal was of interest to them. I believe the rumoured deal included Townsend, so the reality of it was not a formal offer of £10m. A deal probably would have been done between the clubs if the political situation at Southampton not blown up beyond all of their expectations. They'd agreed with Schneiderlin that they'd sell him to us, so it was just down to agree the price and a compromise would probably have been reached. That's the reality of how transfers work.

 

[braineclipse]

We are still looking for a DM. Apparently a good one, too. How does that fit into the idea that we're happy to trust in Bentaleb when it comes to the DM position? I certainly don't see Bentaleb as a holding player, anyway (we've had that conversation as well): but the very fact that we're still looking for a DM after shifting bargain-bin Stambo is indicative of our continuing desire to see a quality midfielder step into that DM position. Bentaleb will become one in time (albeit a box-to-box midfielder more than a 'pure' DM, imo) , but given our defensive frailties, we need one now. We also needed one last summer. We went for one, made an unbelievably derisory bid to start the process off, and then ran away when it was rejected, consoling ourselves with a cheap player Poch clearly didn't want in any capacity. Suffice it to say, I don't consider that a sensible sequence of events at all. And I'm somewhat surprised that you still seem to believe that Poch wanted anything to do with Stambo.

I think Bentaleb is good enough and versatile enough to play either role in that deep midfield duo in the future. A player like Schneidelin would give us options, competition and cover. A top class player in that mold that can improve us significantly right now whilst still having the potential to develop and form a partnership with one of our most talented players (Bentaleb) should always be "looked for".

Again, this is similar to my proposed explanation for last season. Target players at the upper level of what we can reasonably get (Schneiderlin, the German DMs this season etc), players that can improve us significantly short term. If they cannot be gotten (for a fee we find acceptable) don't waste time buying second best "much of a muchness" players for relatively big money. Sign some cover if needed, trust the youngsters, or buy very talented new young players with huge potential.

Obviously now we know Schneiderlin wasn't gettable this season. If we can sign Bender (or perhaps Kramer, I know a lot less about him) that's fantastic. If not, we have some very talented young players to develop and just added another one in Alli. Keep doing that, bring in cover/cheap competition if needed.

I would be quite happy with a similar strategy for our attacking midfield and striking positions this summer:

Attacking midfield: If we can't sign someone clearly better than Chadli/Eriksen/Lamela trust ourselves to develop Pritchard, Alli etc. Bring in more players with huge potential if possible. Bring in cover/competition for a reasonable fee if necessary.

Striker: If we can't sign our top targets, same story. The way I see it Werner is one such potential youngster in an area where our development squad probably doesn't have an answer for us at this point. If we think Berahino is a clearly better option, go for it, if he's gettable for what we consider a reasonable fee. If not bring in talent and/or cover/competition as needed.

 

[THFC39]

I doubt any of those players would have improved us. They mostly play in positions we didn't need to strengthen in. Your entire post seemed to be a bit of a keeping up with the Joneses about it. In 2013, all the clubs were probably jealous of our transfer activity. But as it turned out, signing a tonne of players don't make up for losing a genuinely world-class one.

We've kept all of our best players, so to actually improve the squad, is quite difficult. We finished 5th last season so we have an extremely talented squad.

You just seem to want to sign these players, just because they're decent highlights players who have a big reputation and are good to watch. Payet for example, what is the big fascination with this guy? At the end of the day he is a journeyman. I get the appeal, he's a flair player like Di Canio. But like Di Canio, he is great to watch, will be a fan favourite, but he'll never play for a top club. Why? Because he isn't good enough. He's not as good as Eriksen, so why would we even be interested in him? The same thing goes for most on that list. The reason they've moved to 'less fashionable and poorer clubs', is a lot to do with the fact that nobody decent was interested.

Is there anyone here who agrees that Yohan Cabaye would not have improved us? Or that Mario Suarez, who was one of Diego Simeone's most dependable players as a defensive midfielder at Atletico during their fantastic 4-year run, wouldn't improve our midfield options?

Imbula, Ayew, and Payet all THRIVED in Bielsa's system, which is what Pochettino is trying to implement at Spurs. Ayew has as much pace as any attacking player we have, except he actually has end product too, which he's proven in Ligue 1 and on the international level. Payet was arguably the best player in the entire French league last season. 7 goals and 21 assists. Phenomenally creative and works exceptionally hard for the team and can play in any position across the 3 behind the striker. As for Imbula, Porto, one of the greatest scouting clubs in world football, paid what for them is a massive fee for him. At only 22 years old, he's a major talent.

Wijnaldum was Eredevisie Player of the Year, ahead of his teammate Depay. He was a massive reason why PSV cruised to the title. He is a first XI player for the Dutch National Team and is exceptionally versatile, as he can play a central midfielder or as a goal scoring #10. Are we so stocked in the attacking midfield that someone like that wouldn't help us? I mean we've seen Vertonghen, Chadli, and Eriksen all come from the Dutch League and become important players for us, so the idea that someone like Wijnaldum isn't good enough, or we couldn't use him, doesn't make sense to me.

These players all fit the exact same mold as Eriksen, Vertonghen, Lloris, Berbatov, Chadli, and Van der Vaart. All players who were successful in other leagues, had CL/EL experience, and were key members of their national teams, but who top clubs didn't want to take a chance on. Alderweireld was a signing exactly along those lines. All of the players I list more or less fall under the same criterion, and are almost certainly better than what we can sign at the tail end of the window.

By the way, the way people talk about finishing 5th last season makes it seem like our results were much better than they actually were. We finished on 64 points, five fewer than the season before with AVB/Sherwood in charge and Soldado/Adebayor our chief strikers and Paulinho/Sandro/Dembele our central midfield. We were on 58 points after 36 games and only 2 points ahead of Swansea at that time, who was in 8th. So let's not sit here and think we are incapable with a few injuries and loss of form of a couple players of ending up further down the table.

 

[billyiddo]

Probably best to see who we bring in before the end of the window before saying whether those players would have improved us or not

 

[DubaiSpur]

I'm quite enjoying this with you Dubai!

I do understand the point that you are making, but my issue with that is that there is the supposition that we are/were actually after those players. I'm not sure that I believe that it is "Levy's penny pinching ways" that is to blame for us not getting players. No doubt he drives a hard bargain, but that's because he has to. We are after a certain calibre of player that don't come cheap. I think our focus has to be on better scouting to unearth the talents, not on spending more in the transfer market. Yes, buying the right player at the right time could really have accelerated and improved the team. However, sometimes buying the wrong player at the wrong time can completely change the performances as well and disrupt the harmony of a team. Let's face it, if it were easy getting these things right you wonder why all teams just don't do it!

The point re Stambouli. Who's to say that Pochettino didn't want him, but early on realised that actually he was not the player that he thought he was. It wouldn't be the first time that a player coming from abroad just does not perform. We have just acted earlier in cutting our losses rather than have a Gomes, Bentley or Dos Santos on our hands.

As NWND says, signing lots of players does not guarantee anything!

First off, likewise. Now, to address your points: firstly, there isn't much doubt that we were in the market for the players that I mentioned. I make that claim because the managers we've sacked have all confirmed that these were the players they wanted to sign, only to be offered their cheaper replacements (Juande, Harry and AVB), so it's about as ITK as you can get. That we are after that calibre of player is not in question: that we routinely end up with their less able, cheaper replacements is the problem. Why that happens is the question, especially when we are the lowest net spenders in the Premier League over the last few seasons and definitely have the financial wherewithal to push the boat out for 'extraneous value' players at key times: not always, but at ciritical moments, like when a new manager needs that one player to implement his system (Schneiderlin for Poch, Moutinho for AVB) or we're on the verge of something big (3rd in January 2012). I'd suggest that we routinely fail at doing this because our chairman isn't the type to take even the smallest risk in pursuit of the club's on-pitch ambitions, and completely ignores the manager's valuations of transfer targets in favour of both his own and the scouting team's valuations of those players. The same thing can be seen with the stadium: we are going the lowest-risk route to fund it, and have delayed incessantly (including during that kerfuffle with Archway) to avoid spending any more than we absolutely have to. And while that approach may or may not be beneficial for a stadium project, it is definitely detrimental to the football team, imo. And yes, buying the wrong player at the wrong time can completely change performances as well: sadly, we learned that when we bought Saha and Nelsen in a window where many (possibly even the players) expected real reinforcements to push for the title. We ended up going into a tailspin, and Saha and Nelsen did little to arrest that tailspin.

As for Stambouli, Poch wanted Schneiderlin: this much everyone agrees on. He got Stambouli: whether he wanted him or not is still an open question, but he wasn't the player he envisioned originally anyway, so surely the point is somewhat moot.

 

[braineclipse]

Again, I don't disagree with most of what you say: we don't shop in that market, absolutely. I only used that list to illustrate that, generally, more expensive players will have a higher success rate than less expensive ones. If I could cement that fact by finding a table of free transfers/nominal fees and putting that out there for discussion(with the intention of proving that less expensive players have higher failure rates), I would: unfortunately, I don't even think that's possible to do. Still, the point I was making was that the prices that the market sets are (generally, allowing for significant variation) the right ones: not that we should shop exclusively in that top 100 bracket.

Where I feel we routinely fail as a club is in occasionally accepting extraneous values, and in pushing the boat past the cheaper option to the more expensive buy at crucial times. By extraneous values, I mean the intrinsic worth a player has to our manager, not necessarily to either our chairman or our scouting team: for example, I don't think there was any doubt about Schneiderlin being Poch's primary target last summer (along with Rodriguez), and despite that the club decided to forgo bidding for him and gave Poch Stambouli instead. Stambouli (objectively) isn't a bad player: he may even really be the low-cost alternative to Schneiderlin that the club probably thought he was when getting him in. But Poch never played him, rarely used him in any capacity and disinterestedly sold him on just a year after his arrival. Think of the difference Schneiderlin would have made to our 14/15 season, instead of the low-cost alternative that Poch ended up getting and hardly using because his valuation of said low-cost option didn't match his valuation of his primary target. Think of the difference Villa, Hulk or Moutinho could have made to AVB's 12-13 and 13-14 seasons. Think of the difference a real defender and striker (worth actual transfer fees) would have made to our (then) title-chasing side in January 2012, instead of Ryan Nelsen and Louis Saha. Think of the difference Eto'o and Villa could have made in 2008-2009, instead of Pav and Fraizer Campbell.These players were all passed over in favour of the cheaper options, and we have suffered for it, imo. And it isn't like these players are in the Top 100 list, beyond our reach: in all these cases, these players were ones eminently within our ability to acquire them at the time, but were passed over in favour of the cheap, value signings that ended up costing Ramos, Harry and AVB their jobs. They all came out afterwards and criticized this habit of the club: and, looking back, they were all absolutely right, even if we scoffed at their individual claims when they made them.

I know I've pointed this out before, but there really is no reason other than speculation to think that Pochettino thought that Schneiderlin was worth this kind of "extraneous value". Anyone claiming that we made a mistake by not listening to Pochettino when he wanted Schneiderlin signed for whatever it is he would have cost last summer is doing so based on speculation.

Is it really that incredible that Pochettino perhaps agreed that Schneiderlin wasn't worth £25m+ to us as a club? I'm not convinced either way, but I do know that any argument based on knowing this one way or the other should be less bombastic than yours and acknowledge that it is speculative.

 

[NWND]

Cabaye, Clasie, Imbula, Suarez, Ayew, Konoplyanka...all either DMs or left-wingers, positions we definitely need to strengthen in. I think you've done the man an injustice, NWND.

Cabaye and Clasie both play in Bentaleb's position/role. Bentaleb is a better player than both of them, IMO. Or at the very least it's not a role in the squad/team we're looking to buy in, as if you're talking the need of backing up the recycler/play-maker position, then we have Carroll back in the fold and Winks.

Imbula. He could have been an asset, but we don't know what went on with him. He was linked with a lot of big clubs, like Inter, yet ended up at Porto. His father made some derogatory comments about players moving to clubs like Chelsea and ruining their careers, so it's possible that only Porto gave him the guaranteed first-team starter assurances he would have wanted. Any midfielder coming in with us is going to have to fight to keep his place, as we will want to give Alli, Winks and others game time.

Suarez, well that is a strange one on your list. What does he offer that Stambouli didn't do you think?

Ayew. What does he bring that Chadli doesn't? He's not got the explosive pace that we appear to be going after? We have quite a few wide-forwards with moderate pace who get forward and score the odd goal. So what? It looks like what we're really after is explosive pace and goal threat that can also play upfront. Don't see how Ayew fits the bill here. Konoplyanka- Loads of clubs looked at him and passed. Why do you think that is?

 

[THFC39]

But presumably our scouting team, the black box and a filo of algorithms have concluded that for some reason or other that these players (if they were ever really on our radar) were not what we needed. We pay fairly decent money to Mitchell and the recruitment team. Presumably we trust they know more of what is needed and what these players have to offer (plus value for money) that all of us keyboard gurus?

We'll see on this point. People employed by football clubs make transfer related mis-judgements all the time. We should know that first hand. Look at Dani Osvaldo, Gaston Ramirez, and Shane Long as recent examples of moves Southampton made that were disastrous signings at major money for a club of their turnover, which is much lower than us (even for us the sums they paid for those players would be seen as quite high).

 

[Lost Mango]

Is there anyone here who agrees that Yohan Cabaye would not have improved us? Or that Mario Suarez, who was one of Diego Simeone's most dependable players as a defensive midfielder at Atletico during their fantastic 4-year run, wouldn't improve our midfield options?

Imbula, Ayew, and Payet all THRIVED in Bielsa's system, which is what Pochettino is trying to implement at Spurs. Ayew has as much pace as any attacking player we have, except he actually has end product too, which he's proven in Ligue 1 and on the international level. Payet was arguably the best player in the entire French league last season. 7 goals and 21 assists. Phenomenally creative and works exceptionally hard for the team and can play in any position across the 3 behind the striker. As for Imbula, Porto, one of the greatest scouting clubs in world football, paid what for them is a massive fee for him. At only 22 years old, he's a major talent.

Wijnaldum was Eredevisie Player of the Year, ahead of his teammate Depay. He was a massive reason why PSV cruised to the title. He is a first XI player for the Dutch National Team and is exceptionally versatile, as he can play a central midfielder or as a goal scoring #10. Are we so stocked in the attacking midfield that someone like that wouldn't help us? I mean we've seen Vertonghen, Chadli, and Eriksen all come from the Dutch League and become important players for us, so the idea that someone like Wijnaldum isn't good enough, or we couldn't use him, doesn't make sense to me.

These players all fit the exact same mold as Eriksen, Vertonghen, Lloris, Berbatov, Chadli, and Van der Vaart. All players who were successful in other leagues, had CL/EL experience, and were key members of their national teams, but who top clubs didn't want to take a chance on. Alderweireld was a signing exactly along those lines. All of the players I list more or less fall under the same criterion, and are almost certainly better than what we can sign at the tail end of the window.

By the way, the way people talk about finishing 5th last season makes it seem like our results were much better than they actually were. We finished on 64 points, five fewer than the season before with AVB/Sherwood in charge and Soldado/Adebayor our chief strikers and Paulinho/Sandro/Dembele our central midfield. We were on 58 points after 36 games and only 2 points ahead of Swansea at that time, who was in 8th. So let's not sit here and think we are incapable with a few injuries and loss of form of a couple players of ending up further down the table.

We don't know if we were in for them or maybe more importantly whether they would consider coming to us (especially early in the window before the big fish stop shopping), in which case there is nothing we can do.

Maybe many of them think another stand-out season at a team in CL in whichever country they are currently in AND then the big contract to a Barca, Utd or Chelsea is worth the wait rather than signing 3 or 5 year contract with us. Maybe, as with Depay (IIRC), someone at OT (or the Etihad or Nou Camp) has already whispered in their ears promising them gold by the bucket load next summer.

In which case it doesn't matter how much smoke we blow up their arses there is nowt we can do. The papers can link us, they may well be improvements on what we have but they don't want us so it is game over.

 

[braineclipse]

Probably best to see who we bring in before the end of the window before saying whether those players would have improved us or not

And perhaps even a month or two after that to see how some of our very promising young players do...

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

Is there anyone here who agrees that Yohan Cabaye would not have improved us? Or that Mario Suarez, who was one of Diego Simeone's most dependable players as a defensive midfielder at Atletico during their fantastic 4-year run, wouldn't improve our midfield options?

Imbula, Ayew, and Payet all THRIVED in Bielsa's system, which is what Pochettino is trying to implement at Spurs. Ayew has as much pace as any attacking player we have, except he actually has end product too, which he's proven in Ligue 1 and on the international level. Payet was arguably the best player in the entire French league last season. 7 goals and 21 assists. Phenomenally creative and works exceptionally hard for the team and can play in any position across the 3 behind the striker. As for Imbula, Porto, one of the greatest scouting clubs in world football, paid what for them is a massive fee for him. At only 22 years old, he's a major talent.

Wijnaldum was Eredevisie Player of the Year, ahead of his teammate Depay. He was a massive reason why PSV cruised to the title. He is a first XI player for the Dutch National Team and is exceptionally versatile, as he can play a central midfielder or as a goal scoring #10. Are we so stocked in the attacking midfield that someone like that wouldn't help us? I mean we've seen Vertonghen, Chadli, and Eriksen all come from the Dutch League and become important players for us, so the idea that someone like Wijnaldum isn't good enough, or we couldn't use him, doesn't make sense to me.

These players all fit the exact same mold as Eriksen, Vertonghen, Lloris, Berbatov, Chadli, and Van der Vaart. All players who were successful in other leagues, had CL/EL experience, and were key members of their national teams, but who top clubs didn't want to take a chance on. Alderweireld was a signing exactly along those lines. All of the players I list more or less fall under the same criterion, and are almost certainly better than what we can sign at the tail end of the window.

By the way, the way people talk about finishing 5th last season makes it seem like our results were much better than they actually were. We finished on 64 points, five fewer than the season before with AVB/Sherwood in charge and Soldado/Adebayor our chief strikers and Paulinho/Sandro/Dembele our central midfield. We were on 58 points after 36 games and only 2 points ahead of Swansea at that time, who was in 8th. So let's not sit here and think we are incapable with a few injuries and loss of form of a couple players of ending up further down the table.

The same arguments could have been made for the signing of Soldado, Paulinho, Torres (Chelsea) and Winston Bogarde! The fact is, there is no guarantee and for whatever reason our set up has decided that they are not the players that we want.

 

[DubaiSpur]

We won't have made a formal offer. That's generally the last thing that is done in a transfer. We were talking to them, no doubt. We might have asked if a £10m deal was of interest to them. I believe the rumoured deal included Townsend, so the reality of it was not a formal offer of £10m. A deal probably would have been done between the clubs if the political situation at Southampton not blown up beyond all of their expectations. They'd agreed with Schneiderlin that they'd sell him to us, so it was just down to agree the price and a compromise would probably have been reached. That's the reality of how transfers work.

Read the article I linked. It mentions a formal bid of 10 million quid, with no follow-up whatsoever. And doesn't mention Townsend at all: I believe that talk came much later in the window, towards the last week or so.

The point I was trying to make ( sorry you could not fathom that out?), is that there are some fans who just like to bitch and it sometimes does not matter what the cause is. And you say you read my post thoroughly but decided to disregard it, well I do not take you for a stupid man so I can only assume that it does not fit your agenda against Levy.

I have no problem with those who do not like Levy, the problem is those who blame him all the time for everything without any real proof except for something they have read in the press ( which is mostly nothing but rumours). Again I say he has made mistakes but whether you like it or not you ARE like a broken record with you constant slagging off on Levy and its tiresome to many.

The point you were trying to make is that the same people who 'bitch' about Levy will also be the ones 'bitching' about Poch when things go sour, which is just illogical and unfair. It's also a bit of a cheap shot, imo. As for fans who 'just like to bitch', I still haven't seen anyone on this forum who's unequivocally unhappy with everything the club does, so that's also an overreach on your part, in the same way that misrepresenting you as an unabashed Levy apologist was on mine.

I'm not going to comment on the 'blame him all the time for everything without proof' accusation, given that half the time criticism about him (his transfers, mainly) is based on what AVB, Harry and Juande explicitly said: no faffing about with rumours here, this stuff came straight from the horse's mouth. And the 'broken record' thing is, as I mentioned, equally tiresome: if you claim that I'm constantly slagging him off about everything he does, then again, that's a stupidly transparent misrepresentation of my stance, and you can't then blame me for labelling you an unabashed Levy hero-worshipper who sees no faults in the man.

Anyway, drop it, park. I'm just moody after watching the damn Community Shield game, and I'm not likely to take this back-and-forth with good grace at the moment. Perhaps we can both be more reasonable later.

I think Bentaleb is good enough and versatile enough to play either role in that deep midfield duo in the future. A player like Schneidelin would give us options, competition and cover. A top class player in that mold that can improve us significantly right now whilst still having the potential to develop and form a partnership with one of our most talented players (Bentaleb) should always be "looked for".

Again, this is similar to my proposed explanation for last season. Target players at the upper level of what we can reasonably get (Schneiderlin, the German DMs this season etc), players that can improve us significantly short term. If they cannot be gotten (for a fee we find acceptable) don't waste time buying second best "much of a muchness" players for relatively big money. Sign some cover if needed, trust the youngsters, or buy very talented new young players with huge potential.

Obviously now we know Schneiderlin wasn't gettable this season. If we can sign Bender (or perhaps Kramer, I know a lot less about him) that's fantastic. If not, we have some very talented young players to develop and just added another one in Alli. Keep doing that, bring in cover/cheap competition if needed.

I would be quite happy with a similar strategy for our attacking midfield and striking positions this summer:

Attacking midfield: If we can't sign someone clearly better than Chadli/Eriksen/Lamela trust ourselves to develop Pritchard, Alli etc. Bring in more players with huge potential if possible. Bring in cover/competition for a reasonable fee if necessary.

Striker: If we can't sign our top targets, same story. The way I see it Werner is one such potential youngster in an area where our development squad probably doesn't have an answer for us at this point. If we think Berahino is a clearly better option, go for it, if he's gettable for what we consider a reasonable fee. If not bring in talent and/or cover/competition as needed.

But who determines who we can and can't sign? That is the question. If we finish with a 40 million pound profit in the window (quite conceivable given the trajectory of outgoings and incomings, and past experience) and a few Stambo type deals that Poch will inevitably cast off next summer, can we really say that we are a) content in the knowledge that we tried our best to sign quality players, and b) justified in going to our youngsters so easily? And is that a youth-oriented strategy, or is it a shoddy excuse to avoid spending money?

 

[NWND]

Is there anyone here who agrees that Yohan Cabaye would not have improved us? Or that Mario Suarez, who was one of Diego Simeone's most dependable players as a defensive midfielder at Atletico during their fantastic 4-year run, wouldn't improve our midfield options?

Imbula, Ayew, and Payet all THRIVED in Bielsa's system, which is what Pochettino is trying to implement at Spurs. Ayew has as much pace as any attacking player we have, except he actually has end product too, which he's proven in Ligue 1 and on the international level. Payet was arguably the best player in the entire French league last season. 7 goals and 21 assists. Phenomenally creative and works exceptionally hard for the team and can play in any position across the 3 behind the striker. As for Imbula, Porto, one of the greatest scouting clubs in world football, paid what for them is a massive fee for him. At only 22 years old, he's a major talent.

Wijnaldum was Eredevisie Player of the Year, ahead of his teammate Depay. He was a massive reason why PSV cruised to the title. He is a first XI player for the Dutch National Team and is exceptionally versatile, as he can play a central midfielder or as a goal scoring #10. Are we so stocked in the attacking midfield that someone like that wouldn't help us? I mean we've seen Vertonghen, Chadli, and Eriksen all come from the Dutch League and become important players for us, so the idea that someone like Wijnaldum isn't good enough, or we couldn't use him, doesn't make sense to me.

These players all fit the exact same mold as Eriksen, Vertonghen, Lloris, Berbatov, Chadli, and Van der Vaart. All players who were successful in other leagues, had CL/EL experience, and were key members of their national teams, but who top clubs didn't want to take a chance on. Alderweireld was a signing exactly along those lines. All of the players I list more or less fall under the same criterion, and are almost certainly better than what we can sign at the tail end of the window.

By the way, the way people talk about finishing 5th last season makes it seem like our results were much better than they actually were. We finished on 64 points, five fewer than the season before with AVB/Sherwood in charge and Soldado/Adebayor our chief strikers and Paulinho/Sandro/Dembele our central midfield. We were on 58 points after 36 games and only 2 points ahead of Swansea at that time, who was in 8th. So let's not sit here and think we are incapable with a few injuries and loss of form of a couple players of ending up further down the table.

Why would we bring in players just because they're decent and available and fit a mould of Eriksen and Chadli? That's precisely the scatter gun approach Levy has been criticised for in the past. Cabaye would not have improved us, no. He would have blocked Bentaleb's development or be stuck on the bench and still left the midfield destroyer position to fill with £10m less in the kitty.

Likewise, for me Ayew is not any better than Chadli so what's the point. Chadli has end product he scored double figures last year.

Payet had a good season last year, but he's 28 and never even played for a title challenging top team in France. It's like Clint Dempsey's season before we bought him, he had one exceptional season scoring about 20 goals and got his move. Decent player, no more, no less.

 

[GrimsbyYid]

This thread is bonkers, people are going apebrick based in rumours and seemingly with knowledge of how levy and pochetino think... We haven't signed our players yet, we are obviously going to sign the players we need. The crazy impatience, the desire to sign players poch may not want who've signed for other clubs is frankly bizarre. It is not the 1st September, why these crazy panicked posts?

I'd rather get the players in poch wants at the end of the window than a player he doesn't just so he can play against Man U!