Frank Give him time or get rid?

[DubSpur]

We tend to go wide when we're deeper in possession - these aren't the positions from which you play through-balls, we don't get on the ball enough centrally in the final third. Kulusevski Maddison & Porro were our highest contributers last season, 2 have not kicked a ball this season and Porro has reverted to a full back role as opposed to the inverted role that saw him occupying the advanced central positions.

Kudus completed 2 through balls in 24/25 - so not something he has a track record of.
Tel at Bayern was more of a cut in and shoot merchant at Bayern, not particularly strong at passing the ball through the lines.

Xavi has shown himself capable of this in the Bundesliga - he needs to be found more often in the advanced central positions and we need better movement from our forwards in order for him to complete these types of passes

And Frank has refused for the most part to play Xavi in that position.

 

[billyiddo]

And Frank has refused for the most part to play Xavi in that position.

It's the position he has played the most...
Whoscored has him starting 3 games off the left.

He is a young player who looked off the pace of the PL initially and has been eased in to it. This is not something out of the ordinary.

 

[FolkestoneSpur]

Well that's one solution

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[braineclipse]

We tend to go wide when we're deeper in possession - these aren't the positions from which you play through-balls, we don't get on the ball enough centrally in the final third. Kulusevski Maddison & Porro were our highest contributers last season, 2 have not kicked a ball this season and Porro has reverted to a full back role as opposed to the inverted role that saw him occupying the advanced central positions.

Kudus completed 2 through balls in 24/25 - so not something he has a track record of.
Tel at Bayern was more of a cut in and shoot merchant at Bayern, not particularly strong at passing the ball through the lines.

Xavi has shown himself capable of this in the Bundesliga - he needs to be found more often in the advanced central positions and we need better movement from our forwards in order for him to complete these types of passes.

Agreed. Our ball progression is really bad. And that's rather important for a football team.

Will be interesting to see if Gallagher can improve that if he's signed. And if we move for anyone else that can improve that this window.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Agreed. Our ball progression is really bad. And that's rather important for a football team.

Will be interesting to see if Gallagher can improve that if he's signed. And if we move for anyone else that can improve that this window.

Someone posted a chart on the transfer thread and Gallagher’s progressive passes were no better than any of the midfielders we have, his pass success was a few % higher however. The metrics (prog passes & pass success) on those charts can be massively swayed by the teams you are playing in though and managers tactics.

 

[Raziel]

Another

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[Muttley]

Someone posted a chart on the transfer thread and Gallagher’s progressive passes were no better than any of the midfielders we have, his pass success was a few % higher however. The metrics (prog passes & pass success) on those charts can be massively swayed by the teams you are playing in though and managers tactics.

We also need to make sure the opposition get the yellow card when our central players are moving through the middle third in central areas. We accept the professional fouls way too easy. Perhaps Gallagher is bit more wordly wise and will get in the ear of the referees. It's hard to play those through balls when you been tripped and had your shirt pulled as the default. My guess is that this creative part of the game is reducing massively across the entire league because of PGMOL's ineptitude and managers now just automatically get the ball out wide.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Problem is, it's not about the system on paper anymore, it's about how you implement it on the pitch. For instance, VDV and Romero are, in my opinion, ill-suited to a low block: they're not that great in the air and their concentration is suspect at times.

Likewise, we don't really have the passing ability in this squad to play on the break - something that requires a lot of quality in terms of off the ball movement and execution. Hiring Mourinho or Conte now would be a disaster, for instance. Ironically, I think Frank is trying to work around that the same way Postecoglou did, trying to recover the ball as high as possible.

A high-intensity pressing requires mobile and fit players (as well as a basic plan, but that's another matter).

That's where we disagree: you seem to think we have a good all-round squad that could fit in with any system. I think it's unbalanced and lacks any defining quality, bar maybe for a decent ability to run with the ball. Unfortunately, you need to play with a high defensive line to get the best out of VDV and Romero (in my opinion), which pretty much negates the need for ball carriers since there's fewer spaces to run into, and our players don't have the stamina for a Barcelona-style press.

That's why so many people regret Postecoglou: the squad is obviously a better (albeit far from perfect) fit for his brand of football. For someone like Frank, it would take a huge compromise (give up on the mid/low block) to get anything out of these players. Whoever comes next will have the same issues but the football might at least be easier on the eye.

I don't see that at all. We've very rarely played a high press this season and when we have it has been a coherent, well drilled one even more rarely.

 

[thfcsteff]

So, just to start with, thanks for the response, well thought out and did give me something to think about.

I still think it's a little more flexible than you think, e.g. you talk about the back line, well you have VDV, Romero, Danso & Dragusin, you could play 3 atb (Romero would be well suited to the step out role), you could punt VDV to LB, you could swap Danso in if you want more air cover. I'd argue the core of the team is physicality (a lot of physical players, pretty big side overall minus a couple), we should have plenty of running in the team and we should have the stamina for a press (I think the PL is ill suited for permanent press, more mid block with controlled triggers for a high press)

We do lack balance (I agree) and we lack an elite player or system to build around (I think that drives your defining quality issue. Yes Ange would probably enjoy having Kudus/Gallagher/Paulhinha in his squad more than Frank does.

But that goes back to Frank, what is he trying to do? e.g. is he trying to get use of the width (we have wingers/AMs who can play wide), is he trying to build around Xavi? is he trying to press. Really (and if you see something else, I'd be fascinated) it seems his strategy is mid block that transitions to a super deep block under pressure), hump the ball to Kudus, he tries to take on his man, if he can't, back pass to Porro, huge booming cross into box to 1 CF, and my huge worry is that's what we want to do on the left. The video I posted earlier shows basic gaps in coaching, not player skill/capability, positioning, off the ball movement, understanding opposition passing lanes, that's not on the squad, not at this level.

And here's where I really worry, everyone thinks the issue with the team is no passer, yet we have gone out and got a LB, Bentancur goes down, we get a similar profile CM, that tells me two things, not sure Frank is looking for a passer, and the lack of forward passing is a design not flaw, I fundamentally (guess this is back to difference in squad evaluation) don't believe this squad is capable of only 11 progressive passes in 21 games (and Bentancur's passing numbers in previous years to this one as e.g. kind of backs that up).

This has absolutely been the main question I've had since he was appointed; would he/will he develop a style of play that less counter-heavy, more possession/front-foot, and one which uses the middle more? Currently it appears not. One thing people are missing when we have an exciting 20-25 mins IMO, is that much of that momentum is being brought not by carving teams apart with football but by hard-pressing them into coughing possession which we then take and power forward with. That's a different thing IMO to the definition of 'progressive' football. And again, we all have our preferences, I get that...

 

[thfcsteff]

We tend to go wide when we're deeper in possession - these aren't the positions from which you play through-balls, we don't get on the ball enough centrally in the final third. Kulusevski Maddison & Porro were our highest contributers last season, 2 have not kicked a ball this season and Porro has reverted to a full back role as opposed to the inverted role that saw him occupying the advanced central positions.

Kudus completed 2 through balls in 24/25 - so not something he has a track record of.
Tel at Bayern was more of a cut in and shoot merchant at Bayern, not particularly strong at passing the ball through the lines.

Xavi has shown himself capable of this in the Bundesliga - he needs to be found more often in the advanced central positions and we need better movement from our forwards in order for him to complete these types of passes.

It appears we are simply not interested in signing midfielders who can offer a progressive pass option from deeper positions. Maddison would often drop in and pick the ball up off the CBs so as he could carry and then thread a pass into the forwards/attacking players. Right now, the only person to really do that is Romero (Porro sometimes).

I actually cannot believe you're saying that through balls don't get played from deeper positions (I must be misunderstanding what you're saying) when that first pass from a deep position can unlock so much ahead of it if played quickly and if there are systems of movement built around it. We are not set up that way, and three quarters+ of our forward passes are up the wings/outside (that's en eye-test number so not statistically accurate)...

 

[FolkestoneSpur]

Well that's one solution

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[billyiddo]

It appears we are simply not interested in signing midfielders who can offer a progressive pass option from deeper positions. Maddison would often drop in and pick the ball up off the CBs so as he could carry and then thread a pass into the forwards/attacking players. Right now, the only person to really do that is Romero (Porro sometimes).

I actually cannot believe you're saying that through balls don't get played from deeper positions (I must be misunderstanding what you're saying) when that first pass from a deep position can unlock so much ahead of it if played quickly and if there are systems of movement built around it. We are not set up that way, and three quarters+ of our forward passes are up the wings/outside (that's en eye-test number so not statistically accurate)...

A through ball is defined in a statistical sense as being a ball played in behind the defence/through the defensive line - that's the type of pass this stat refers to.

 

[thfcsteff]

A through ball is defined in a statistical sense as being a ball played in behind the defence - that's the type of pass this stat refers to.

Honestly, the definition of the stat is not too important to me (albeit I appreciate that it important to know how it is being defined in such context).
My biggest issue is how we are looking to get that ball behind the defence, and it is clear that Frank generally favours doing so via wide positions and from counter-attacking situations/forcing second-balls higher up the pitch with a press.

I don't think we can say one way or another how much Maddison and Kulusevski would change Frank's approach beyond the fact that last season they were not in a counter-attacking team whereas this season (currently) they would be. Obviously their individual talent would be of great benefit in moments, but honestly, how may of our goals this season have been team generated/system rather than 'moments'?

 

[billyiddo]

Honestly, the definition of the stat is not too important to me (albeit I appreciate that it important to know how it is being defined in such context).
My biggest issue is how we are looking to get that ball behind the defence, and it is clear that Frank generally favours doing so via wide positions and from counter-atacking situations/forcing second-balls higher up the pitch with a press.

Well the discussion was regarding why our through ball stat number is so low, you've jumped in questioning why I think through balls can't be played from deeper on the pitch so I'm just clearing up where you've misunderstood.

I've explained why I think we're not making those defense splitting passes in previous posts and shown that under Frank Brentford were making those kinds of passes more regularly than we are this season AND last season under Ange.

 

[thfcsteff]

Well the discussion was regarding why our through ball stat number is so low, you've jumped in questioning why I think through balls can't be played from deeper on the pitch so I'm just clearing up where you've misunderstood.

I've explained why I think we're not making those defense splitting passes in previous posts

I haven't 'jumped in' at all, I've asked and then asked fior clarification mate, that's all. I am desperately attempting rational discussion on all of this.
However, seeing as we're here, I'm still misundertanding.

You said that the statistical definition of a 'through ball' is a ball played behind the defence.
You also said that through balls don't generally come from wide positions in the traditional sense (agreed).
It was then posited that the reason for our low through ball stats is because we look to go wide and create from those positions (agreed).
So are we in agreement that as we sit right now, Thomas does not seem especially interested in getting players in/developing a system which utilizes the middle of the pirtch (and channels) in that 'progressive' sense?

I think where we disagree is as to why we're not making those sorts of passes/looking to make them and why the stat is low.
I think Frank sees them as too risky overall and prefers to have more methodical control via a deeper set system. I don't believe he wants to adopt that style/dimension. I believe he would rather we become elite with regards to aggressive press and winning of second-balls high up the pitch, and to also hit hard on counters.
I believe you feel he will develop the extra dimension to our football we currently don't have. On that, we agree to disagree, albeit if he is to be here for a while, I hope you're right and that happens.

 

[billyiddo]

I haven't 'jumped in' at all, I've asked and then asked fior clarification mate, that's all. I am desperately attempting rational discussion on all of this.
However, seeing as we're here, I'm still misundertanding.

You said that the statistical definition of a 'through ball' is a ball played behind the defence.
You also said that through balls don't generally come from wide positions in the traditional sense (agreed).
It was then posited that the reason for our low through ball stats is because we look to go wide and create from those positions (agreed).
So are we in agreement that as we sit right now, Thomas does not seem especially interested in getting players in/developing a system which utilizes the middle of the pirtch (and channels) in that 'progressive' sense?

I think where we disagree is as to why we're not making those sorts of passes/looking to make them and why the stat is low.
I think Frank sees them as too risky overall and prefers to have more methodical control via a deeper set system. I don't believe he wants to adopt that style/dimension. I believe he would rather we become elite with regards to aggressive press and winning of second-balls high up the pitch, and to also hit hard on counters.
I believe you feel he will develop the extra dimension to our football we currently don't have. On that, we agree to disagree, albeit if he is to be here for a while, I hope you're right and that happens.

Yes and then when I clarified you said it wasn't important

For whatever reason we are not playing through the middle with enough regularity, choosing to focus more in the wide areas. I've shown this doesn't tally with how Brentford were playing under Frank - so while I agree that yes this is how we are currently playing, no i do not agree that this is his end goal or that there is no interest in developing beyond that approach as it does not tally with how Brentford were playing under him. Which i feel I have referenced enough now to either be taken on board or just ignored as it doesn't suit the argument

 

[Bishop]

Thing is mate, I agree with your last sentence and it doesn’t match up with what he was saying at the start of the season. Defeats/goals against are one thing, but he also walked into a club on a massive, massive high and having won a major trophy. You would surely calibrate and use that energy. Instead, it is all a far more distant memory than it should be.

Probably because your league performances are your actual bread and butter. There have been many teams that have had poor league campaigns that have been patched over to an extent by a good cup run or win but ultimately your league form is the barometer by which you can determine where you are as a club. That feel good factor in a secondary competition was never going to be enough to compensate for the poor state of the club in the league imo. The league is always how you can actually judge your level, how you determine what improvements you need to make how you build to a level of perfection etc.

 

[Bishop]

No mate, it’s not where we are, simply part of it.

Essentially it feels to me that the general nature of these discussions (across the forum not ours per se) come down to one thing.
Do you believe he deserves time simply because of the concept of giving someone time regardless of the current situation?
Do you believe there is no sign at all that anything is going to change in even a reasonable amount of time (say two seasons)?

Personally, I think there is huge factor at play with regards to those directly above Frank. Who are they?? What do they want us to be?? Who can they attract player-wise to this club?? Will the New Boss pay wages in lieu of European football? I would, for example, love Xabi Alonso to waltz into the building and transform the club, however I cannot say with any degree of confidence that the current lot would support him properly.

Back to the ‘optimism’ comment. I allow anyone optimism (being generally an optimist myself) however when some of the early sentiments expressed (standing on the shoulders of others, great foundations) get flipped a few months later to (17th last season, not really a CL club because it came through a cup, there’s a lot of work to do here, fans don’t understand) then I have some issues. Again, in Frank’s defence he is being left dangling in the wind by the spineless suits around him, and as such is dealing with things he will never have dealt with before. I have sympathy.

I do find your response to his comments interesting because I couldn't give a fudge either way. I find all of that to be fluff either way, positive or negative. If everything was going perfectly and we were saying top of the table I wouldn't sit here and analyse those comments he made I finally about sitting on the shoulder sofa success and actually take that seriously and believe that's how he achieved it. It's just chat, something to sound good for the fans.

He was always going to implement whatever plans and systems he felt made sense for the club at the time and I think thats is the case with any I coming manager at any club, not just Spurs. It's all spin and PR, don't take it all that's seriously mate.