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European Super League - Dead on arrival

Finney Is Back said:
Except it was never the intention of the 6 English clubs to leave the PL. That being said, at least half of the ESL breakaway 6 could take a 30 point penalty and still avoid PL relegation.
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The fun thing would if utd, Liverpool and City all got relegated because of the deducted points.
The clamour to over turn it would be hilarious.
Without the big clubs there is no probuct to sell.
No one will pay money for that league.
Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
 
glasgowspur said:
The fun thing would if utd, Liverpool and City all got relegated because of the deducted points.
The clamour to over turn it would be hilarious.
Without the big clubs there is no probuct to sell.
No one will pay money for that league.
Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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lol. It would be the most watched season in history. City were getting relegated every other year til recently, very few tears were shed.

Now the elite clubs resigned have their places in the positions of power expect more levelling up with the ne’er do wells.
 
So the fudging FA fine English clubs

UEFA "suspend" any further action against the European Clubs (who wants to bet they had a chat with their lawyers who told them run as far as you can from any court appearance)

So the FA is punishing English Clubs for a European Competition that UEFA is not taking action on?
 
johnola said:
lol. It would be the most watched season in history. City were getting relegated every other year til recently, very few tears were shed.

Now the elite clubs resigned have their places in the positions of power expect more levelling up with the ne’er do wells.
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That's before they were darlings of the media.
Do you think any TV company is going pay the money they do now for a league without the top teams?
Then watch the smaller clubs bleat that they can't survive without the TV money.
They need each other, sooner they all swallow their pride and get on with it the better for all.
 
glasgowspur said:
That's before they were darlings of the media.
Do you think any TV company is going pay the money they do now for a league without the top teams?
Then watch the smaller clubs bleat that they can't survive without the TV money.
They need each other, sooner they all swallow their pride and get on with it the better for all.
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Ah the Perez argument. It’s all for the love and health of football. What a pitiful, fetid and delusional opinion.
 
glasgowspur said:
I'm not saying it's right, but it's true.
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It’s your opinion, but if it is true it is an untestable and irrelevant truth.

The demand for more more more comes from the elite.

Whilst it is true that the 12 clubs were amongst the largest and most successful, amongst them were also some of the worst run clubs of all.

Debt fuelled and addicted to favourable terms, they have still found their business model had failed to such an extent that they were prepared to dislocate themselves from their fundamentals, and go all in on a flawed laughably lame new competition.

And by the way, the revised fundamentals were so self evidently poor that it was not even the
ESL itself that failed it (it would have done so in my opinion) it was the efforts at dislocating that so many objected to- and again it wasn’t the rump of football clubs complaining the loudest, it was the committed bread and butter supporters of the elite English clubs who were the most vocal.

The elite clubs do not have this great inviolable power they they believed they have. They were disabused of this notion very very quickly. Take note if you had not already.

The power is actually diffuse and hard to organise and is in the hands of the the consumers/ fans/supporters whatever you want to call them. There is no such thing as a new fan without the bankrolling and passion of the existing base.

The fans want greater success for their clubs but they know that it is worthless without sporting jeopardy. Football should now find it much easier to level up, and that is a great prize.
 
johnola said:
It’s your opinion, but if it is true it is an untestable and irrelevant truth.

The demand for more more more comes from the elite.

Whilst it is true that the 12 clubs were amongst the largest and most successful, amongst them were also some of the worst run clubs of all.

Debt fuelled and addicted to favourable terms, they have still found their business model had failed to such an extent that they were prepared to dislocate themselves from their fundamentals, and go all in on a flawed laughably lame new competition.

And by the way, the revised fundamentals were so self evidently poor that it was not even the
ESL itself that failed it (it would have done so in my opinion) it was the efforts at dislocating that so many objected to- and again it wasn’t the rump of football clubs complaining the loudest, it was the committed bread and butter supporters of the elite English clubs who were the most vocal.

The elite clubs do not have this great inviolable power they they believed they have. They were disabused of this notion very very quickly. Take note if you had not already.

The power is actually diffuse and hard to organise and is in the hands of the the consumers/ fans/supporters whatever you want to call them. There is no such thing as a new fan without the bankrolling and passion of the existing base.

The fans want greater success for their clubs but they know that it is worthless without sporting jeopardy. Football should now find it much easier to level up, and that is a great prize.
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Hahahaha .. no offence but absolute nonsense

- The game is horribly broken right now, so not sure what the celebration is? that City and Chelsea will continue to dominate the domestic game based on money doping?
- Your failure to understand even basic business here, the issue with the clubs is not that their business model failed (United, Pool & Spurs are quite fine from a business model perspective), it is that owners/shareholders are investing billions in teams/infrastructure/etc. yet have very little protection for their investment and somehow are expected to foot the bill for developing the domestic game (e.g. Spurs if funding 20-30 year area regeneration project with no way of guaranteeing revenue year to year)
- If you think the clubs don't have power, why did the FA & UEFA and even FIFA panic like they did? why did BT & Sky suddenly run a media campaign against the ESL? (that you bought hook, line and sinker) because if these twelve clubs have no power, then kick them out now, take away points, demote them, go ahead, I fudging dare anyone. The PL/UEFA's business model does NOT work without those clubs

The big irony is the ESL could have helped the English game
- The top 6 would have had pretty much equal revenue
- The non top 6 would have had open runs at the two domestic cups every season
- The non top 6 could have had shots at Europa and CL as well

The fact that the objectors in Europe were PSG, Bayern and in UK City and Chelsea bailed first should tell you way more than what Neville and Carrager's flimflam was.

Amazing people have the passion argument still going, every major league in Europe sold an entire season of product with zero local spectators and you still think you hold the cards .. keep that thought going ..
 
johnola said:
It’s your opinion, but if it is true it is an untestable and irrelevant truth.

The demand for more more more comes from the elite.

Whilst it is true that the 12 clubs were amongst the largest and most successful, amongst them were also some of the worst run clubs of all.

Debt fuelled and addicted to favourable terms, they have still found their business model had failed to such an extent that they were prepared to dislocate themselves from their fundamentals, and go all in on a flawed laughably lame new competition.

And by the way, the revised fundamentals were so self evidently poor that it was not even the
ESL itself that failed it (it would have done so in my opinion) it was the efforts at dislocating that so many objected to- and again it wasn’t the rump of football clubs complaining the loudest, it was the committed bread and butter supporters of the elite English clubs who were the most vocal.

The elite clubs do not have this great inviolable power they they believed they have. They were disabused of this notion very very quickly. Take note if you had not already.

The power is actually diffuse and hard to organise and is in the hands of the the consumers/ fans/supporters whatever you want to call them. There is no such thing as a new fan without the bankrolling and passion of the existing base.

The fans want greater success for their clubs but they know that it is worthless without sporting jeopardy. Football should now find it much easier to level up, and that is a great prize.
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Football at PL level is no longer a sport, it is entertainment.
The smaller clubs have all budgeted for TV for the forsee able future. That money is paid because advertising is sold on the back of glamour clubs.
No glamour clubs, much reduced TV money, very hard times for smaller clubs.
How many players are going to take a pay cut?
How many transfers will go through?
What about transfers that have monies outstanding?
They need each other, the big clubs need the variety of not playing the same teams every six weeks and the smaller clubs need the money the big clubs bring in.
 
glasgowspur said:
Football at PL level is no longer a sport, it is entertainment.
The smaller clubs have all budgeted for TV for the forsee able future. That money is paid because advertising is sold on the back of glamour clubs.
No glamour clubs, much reduced TV money, very hard times for smaller clubs.
How many players are going to take a pay cut?
How many transfers will go through?
What about transfers that have monies outstanding?
They need each other, the big clubs need the variety of not playing the same teams every six weeks and the smaller clubs need the money the big clubs bring in.
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Thing is the glamour clubs change. Everton used to be a glamour club as did leeds or Saudi Sportswashing Machine. It's only recently chelsea and city became glamour clubs. Take them out someone else will come along and replace them.
 
Lilbaz said:
Thing is the glamour clubs change. Everton used to be a glamour club as did leeds or Saudi Sportswashing Machine. It's only recently chelsea and city became glamour clubs. Take them out someone else will come along and replace them.
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I'm not sure I agree

- In the 80's or 90's? sure
- Since the advent of PL & CL, only stupid amounts of cheat mode money gets you close
- And we have almost hit the diminishing returns point in UK, too many clubs already challenge, add another and it becomes exponentially harder to succeed.

There is a real reason Sky/BT/media brick the bed on the thought of ESL, it's because decades of building club brands, investment in marketing was at risk (nothing to do with the game itself). These brands are globally recognized, it takes years of work to do that.
 
Lilbaz said:
Thing is the glamour clubs change. Everton used to be a glamour club as did leeds or Saudi Sportswashing Machine. It's only recently chelsea and city became glamour clubs. Take them out someone else will come along and replace them.
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Chelsea are slightly unstable because of RA, but neither them or City are going anywhere.
Every year the stakes are upped, and every year the pool of clubs that can keep up is dwindling.
Only the historical support of utd and Liverpool give them a chance, and that pool of four clubs fighting it out, with the added spice of the likes of us, Leicester and even Everton make it a unique league. A money making dream.
There is now only one league title in Europe worth winning, the rest are one team leagues, or Spain who have fudged it up royally and two of the biggest clubs in the world are skint.
Psg, City, Chelsea and bayern are not football clubs any more, they virtual signalling vanity projects with incredibly deep pockets.
 
glasgowspur said:
Chelsea are slightly unstable because of RA, but neither them or City are going anywhere.
Every year the stakes are upped, and every year the pool of clubs that can keep up is dwindling.
Only the historical support of utd and Liverpool give them a chance, and that pool of four clubs fighting it out, with the added spice of the likes of us, Leicester and even Everton make it a unique league. A money making dream.
There is now only one league title in Europe worth winning, the rest are one team leagues, or Spain who have fudged it up royally and two of the biggest clubs in the world are skint.
Psg, City, Chelsea and bayern are not football clubs any more, they virtual signalling vanity projects with incredibly deep pockets.
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I'm not saying who's going to finish where in the league.
I am saying that what is a glamour club can and has changed.
Just because a club is big now doesn't give them a GHod given right to be big forever. Or think they are somehow subsidising everyone else by being great.
It wasn't too long ago the italian league was the biggest and best in europe. The english league was a bit of a joke.
 
Lilbaz said:
I'm not saying who's going to finish where in the league.
I am saying that what is a glamour club can and has changed.
Just because a club is big now doesn't give them a GHod given right to be big forever. Or think they are somehow subsidising everyone else by being great.
It wasn't too long ago the italian league was the biggest and best in europe. The english league was a bit of a joke.
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They aren't subsidising anyone.
They need each other, it's as simple as that, and they should all know that.
But pride is getting in the way imho.
 
glasgowspur said:
They aren't subsidising anyone.
They need each other, it's as simple as that, and they should all know that.
But pride is getting in the way imho.
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Sorry didn't mean to suggest that you said they subsidise the smaller teams. It is a perception i have seen from fans of some of the bigger clubs though. That the smaller clubs should be greatful as if it wasn't for the glamour clubs they wouldn't get anything. The whole ego behind starting the esl in the first place. I'm saying if those clubs ceased to exist tomorrow, within a few years there'd be new glamour clubs to replace them.
 
Lilbaz said:
Sorry didn't mean to suggest that you said they subsidise the smaller teams. It is a perception i have seen from fans of some of the bigger clubs though. That the smaller clubs should be greatful as if it wasn't for the glamour clubs they wouldn't get anything. The whole ego behind starting the esl in the first place. I'm saying if those clubs ceased to exist tomorrow, within a few years there'd be new glamour clubs to replace them.
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Well in the UK, the EPL (which in large part has revenue driven by the top clubs) subsidize the lower leagues, why? in what other world does private business subsidize other future potential competitors?

My argument is new glamour clubs don't appear, the leagues diminish, where are the replacement glamour clubs in the one horse leagues?
 
Raziel said:
Well in the UK, the EPL (which in large part has revenue driven by the top clubs) subsidize the lower leagues, why? in what other world does private business subsidize other future potential competitors?

My argument is new glamour clubs don't appear, the leagues diminish, where are the replacement glamour clubs in the one horse leagues?
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Football clubs came out of their local communities and were set up by them. They represented them. They are far more than just businesses. Similar to the national team is not a business. So yes we all have a responsibilty to look after our communities. The rich in this country pay more tax, because they can afford to.

The one horse leagues are one horse leagues because of the champions league. Money used to be much more fairly distributed and other teams used to be much stronger. Same as the creation of the premier league.

You may not have been brought up in the uk so may have a different viewpoint.

As for glamour clubs don't appear? Forrest were the kings of europe. City were in league 2. It should not be decided that's your place stay there. Although they should get there on merit not because some country decides to buy it.
 
Raziel said:
Hahahaha .. no offence but absolute nonsense

- The game is horribly broken right now, so not sure what the celebration is? that City and Chelsea will continue to dominate the domestic game based on money doping?
- Your failure to understand even basic business here, the issue with the clubs is not that their business model failed (United, Pool & Spurs are quite fine from a business model perspective), it is that owners/shareholders are investing billions in teams/infrastructure/etc. yet have very little protection for their investment and somehow are expected to foot the bill for developing the domestic game (e.g. Spurs if funding 20-30 year area regeneration project with no way of guaranteeing revenue year to year)
- If you think the clubs don't have power, why did the FA & UEFA and even FIFA panic like they did? why did BT & Sky suddenly run a media campaign against the ESL? (that you bought hook, line and sinker) because if these twelve clubs have no power, then kick them out now, take away points, demote them, go ahead, I fudging dare anyone. The PL/UEFA's business model does NOT work without those clubs

The big irony is the ESL could have helped the English game
- The top 6 would have had pretty much equal revenue
- The non top 6 would have had open runs at the two domestic cups every season
- The non top 6 could have had shots at Europa and CL as well

The fact that the objectors in Europe were PSG, Bayern and in UK City and Chelsea bailed first should tell you way more than what Neville and Carrager's flimflam was.

Amazing people have the passion argument still going, every major league in Europe sold an entire season of product with zero local spectators and you still think you hold the cards .. keep that thought going ..
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Everything you state above can be totally dismissed by the realpolitik of actual events.

And you really don’t have any excuse to be drawing such false frankly self congratulatory analysis after so many weeks since this Turkey was shot. You’ve always been on the wrong side of this.

Football is not broken. The rich can risk their money in a club but they can lose it too. Look at the venkys and so on. But you can’t lock in success via a Cartel, You can’t have a sporting competition without jeopardy, and you can’t have your crackpot super league.
 
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