ENIC

[billyiddo]

Re: What the absolute F??????

Would it surprise you if you learned that some players don't like expecting the arrival great team-mates to play with and then getting sub-standard versions on deadline day? It is at least plausible, you have to admit. As for 'unsubstantiated', ninety-five percent of football reporting comes from 'sources close to the manager/chairman/board/administrator/players'. It isn't exactly common for football news to be well-sourced.

It's nonsense Dubai - how many players do we have here that give a ****? It seems the one thing we all agree on is that there aren't many, most have been here for a short period and have no ties to the club - they would sooner be putting in transfer requests than telling oeople behind the scenes the chairman is the problem (the same chairman who has provided the state if the art training centre they go to train in every day and invested heavily in the yourh set up) what do they give a **** if THFC is heading nowhere? Most only see us as a stepping stone anyway - it really is a laughable story

 

[DubaiSpur]

Re: What the absolute F??????

It's nonsense Dubai - how many players do we have here that give a ****? It seems the one thing we all agree on is that there aren't many, most have been here for a short period and have no ties to the club - they would sooner be putting in transfer requests than telling oeople behind the scenes the chairman is the problem (the same chairman who has provided the state if the art training centre they go to train in every day and invested heavily in the yourh set up) what do they give a **** if THFC is heading nowhere? Most only see us as a stepping stone anyway - it really is a laughable story

Oh, absolutely. But they need an excuse to put in those transfer requests, no? And blaming the chairman's 'lack of ambition' (however true that may actually be) provides that reason. Again, it sounds plausible, come on. Is it accurate? Might not be: in fact, probably isn't. But it is plausible.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: What the absolute F??????

I honestly don't know, because they don't call me and pour their hearts out to me every week (as much as I would like that to happen). It isn't out of the realms of possibility that Lloris, for example, having played with Bale, was unimpressed by the calibre of the players we signed to replace him, or by the substitution of Schneiderlin (a national team buddy of his) with Stambouli (a relative unknown, even in France). Ditto, Verts might not be very happy with having to play second fiddle to the likes of Fazio, who he probably feels superior to. Ade...well, we all know about Ade. He's seen the devolution of our team from title challengers in January 2012 to what we are today: I'm sure he has some views on the subject.

Like I said, it's very plausible that some of the players don't like what's going on. Not certain, but plausible. The specific players who might have a problem with our transfer policy...well, could be anyone who's been here a while and seen the way we've devolved.

Lloris - has just this last week said that "after 3 coaches in a year and the same problems, perhaps the problems are not with the coach but the players". I doubt he'd be saying that if he was still crying about us not buying Schneiderlin. Btw, Schneiderlin is as much of an 'unknown' as Stambouli in France. Stambouli was in the same title winning Montpellier team as Giroud and one of the reasons Schneiderlin is seeking to move to a 'big club' is because the French have effectively got the snobby attitude that you have to play for a 'big European team' to maintain your place in the squad. Schneiderlin might have a bigger profile now in French football, but that has only been very recent.
I'm sure he, you and I were all positive when we spent the Bale money. That some of those players haven't lived up to what was hoped should not mean we can now re-write history (though please feel free to list who we should have bought with the money instead of each of the 7...)

Verts has played like **** for a while AND had an awful attitude doing so; he is in no position to say a thing; perhaps if he wasn't so **** a defending at the back end of the 2012/13 when Bale was amazing, perhaps we'd have been in the CL anyway. At least Fazio can't be accused of being out-muscled so easily and in the air as is often the case with him. Basically, if he is saying anything he needs to shut-the-f-up and concentrate on improving his flimsy game.

Again, Ade can't say ****!!

Basically, none of those you mentioned could have a hope of being in any morally high position to have these kinds of views, hence why i believe it's BS.
Most of our players are massive UNDERACHIEVERS.
Only of Bale was still around could we even have a hope of having a player who could carry on with that kind of "Levy, you suck!" attitude...and even then he'd probably be such a professional he'd just get on with things...

 

[DubaiSpur]

Re: What the absolute F??????

Lloris - has just this last week said that "after 3 coaches in a year and the same problems, perhaps the problems are not with the coach but the players". I doubt he'd be saying that if he was still crying about us not buying Schneiderlin. Btw, Schneiderlin is as much of an 'unknown' as Stambouli in France. Stambouli was in the same title winning Montpellier team as Giroud and one of the reasons Schneiderlin is seeking to move to a 'big club' is because the French have effectively got the snobby attitude that you have to play for a 'big European team' to maintain your place in the squad. Schneiderlin might have a bigger profile now in French football, but that has only been very recent.
I'm sure he, you and I were all positive when we spent the Bale money. That some of those players haven't lived up to what was hoped should not mean we can now re-write history (though please feel free to list who we should have bought with the money instead of each of the 7...)

Verts has played like **** for a while AND had an awful attitude doing so; he is in no position to say a thing; perhaps if he wasn't so **** a defending at the back end of the 2012/13 when Bale was amazing, perhaps we'd have been in the CL anyway. At least Fazio can't be accused of being out-muscled so easily and in the air as is often the case with him. Basically, if he is saying anything he needs to shut-the-f-up and concentrate on improving his flimsy game.

Again, Ade can't say ****!!

Basically, none of those you mentioned could have a hope of being in any morally high position to have these kinds of views, hence why i believe it's BS.
Most of our players are massive UNDERACHIEVERS.
Only of Bale was still around could we even have a hope of having a player who could carry on with that kind of "Levy, you suck!" attitude...and even then he'd probably be such a professional he'd just get on with things...

Schneiderlin has played for the French national team. He was called up for (and did well in) the World Cup this year. Stambouli hasn't even got a cap for their national side, despite winning that title with Montpellier: he's only been with the U-21's.
Again, it is very plausible. Not saying it's true, but it is plausible.

I have talked enough about how we spent (or misspent) the Bale money. I sincerely believed we gave Andre the best possible squad he could have received. Then he quit, and it was revealed that he didn't want 4 of the 7 players he received, and that changed my opinion on most of those signings. However, when it comes to Lloris, he sees those lads in training every day, whereas we only see them on matchdays and at social events: it is very conceivable that he was disappointed with them pretty soon after they signed, or at least, is disappointed with them now.

I'm not saying Verts and Ade have a moral right to feel like our recent signings haven't been good: however, they could probably say it anyway given that players are often stunningly self-absorbed and unconcerned with appearing morally right, unless it suits them.

Yes, most of the players are spineless and weak. But they could be spineless and weak and still dislike the way Levy and Lewis turned the 2011/2012 squad into..well, this one. It is human to be a mite hypocritical. Doesn't change the essential fact that the story could very well be plausible, is all I'm saying. Verts ,Lloris and Ade played with Bale: hell, Ade played with that trio of VdV - Modric - Bale behind him. I think the prospect of them being dissatisfied with our transfer business is a believable one.

 

[NWND]

DubaiSpur .. a few things

- The armchair business comment wasn't aimed directly at you, I include myself in it, its second guessing a large business decision with a subset of the facts, nothing personal meant
- I disagree re Scum, they prove the point that ENIC (and Everton as second example) is right. The Scum have vastly outspent us in wages, they now are buying big and they squeaked a FA cup win where the draw was extremely kind to them.
- I don't see an opportunity for us to improve that much (from 5th/6th, not the last two years poor efforts) and that's because where I think you and I disagree is what is the investment required.

So lets define that

I think for spurs to own a top 4 spot

- You need a Kompany level defender, a Modric type in Midfield, a Suarez/Aquero/RVP level striker and potentially a quality wide/pacey player
- And with that, you still are hoping they all stay fit/form for season.

You will have to overpay as its spurs, and it will have a knock on effect on wages.

I think you are looking at 120M outlay (most of it not covered by sales), a 25-30% uptick in wages, and your reward might be a CL run, which you would have to do well in to get out of group (Citi has failed several times) to return maybe 40M?

Maybe I'm missing something, but where is the business logic?

Precisely nailed on the head. We WOULD have owned a CL slot under ENIC in all likelihood if Abramovich and Sheikh Mansour didn't exist.

The reality is they've distorted the market. Man Utd were always at a huge advantage financially due to commercial streams beyond anyone else in England. Chelsea and City are bankrolled to a ridiculous extent. Even the goons with their new stadium couldn't compete. You can't without similar bank rolling. The reality also is that a benefactor owner willing to bankroll the team to his own loss is very rare. Only PSG I would say match what City and Chelsea do.

We will never realistically claim a CL spot. Even if ENIC ridiculously over stretched the club we'd not be able to compete. The most we can hope for is finishing the news stadium so we can challenge for 4th rotating with Arsenal and Liverpool.

In the meantime I can't really think of better owners than ENIC other than those at Cteh, Chelsea and PSG.I could think of loads worse

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: What the absolute F??????

Schneiderlin has played for the French national team. He was called up for (and did well in) the World Cup this year. Stambouli hasn't even got a cap for their national side, despite winning that title with Montpellier: he's only been with the U-21's.
Again, it is very plausible. Not saying it's true, but it is plausible.

I have talked enough about how we spent (or misspent) the Bale money. I sincerely believed we gave Andre the best possible squad he could have received. Then he quit, and it was revealed that he didn't want 4 of the 7 players he received, and that changed my opinion on most of those signings. However, when it comes to Lloris, he sees those lads in training every day, whereas we only see them on matchdays and at social events: it is very conceivable that he was disappointed with them pretty soon after they signed, or at least, is disappointed with them now.

I'm not saying Verts and Ade have a moral right to feel like our recent signings haven't been good: however, they could probably say it anyway given that players are often stunningly self-absorbed and unconcerned with appearing morally right, unless it suits them.

Yes, most of the players are spineless and weak. But they could be spineless and weak and still dislike the way Levy and Lewis turned the 2011/2012 squad into..well, this one. It is human to be a mite hypocritical. Doesn't change the essential fact that the story could very well be plausible, is all I'm saying. Verts ,Lloris and Ade played with Bale: hell, Ade played with that trio of VdV - Modric - Bale behind him. I think the prospect of them being dissatisfied with our transfer business is a believable one.

I really liked AVB and was sorry he was sacked (especially at the time he was), but let's get it straight that it's easy for a coach after being sacked "I didn't want x player". Martin Jol did the same thing. At the end of the day, it's their reputation, image and employability for future jobs that they will always be looking to protect.
Remember, i liked AVB, but i think it a stretch to say 4 of the 7 weren't wanted by him. The fact that Chadli, Soldado, Paulinho and Capoue were ever-present in the first 34 league games says otherwise...

Lloris himself recently said the players should take a hard look at themselves and NOT blame the coach. He's seen who has come and gone over the last few years and doesn't seem to be making ANY excuses for them. Any player playing with Bale will find it hard to play with others right now, save for the CL elite players who contest semi-finals every year. However, those players have a chance to make us fans forget about Bale...

Like i say, the article seems like convenient BS

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: What the absolute F??????

Exactly.

There's no doubt that Levy has to review his player signing strategy but it amazes me how his failure, for varying reasons, to sign the likes of Schneiderlin, Moutinho, Willian, Musacchio and Hulk is held up as some kind of proof that he is the devil incarnate.

Statements like that are just as hyperbolic as some you ridicule although I'm guessing that's intentional.

I don't blame him for not signing the above, my main criticism when it comes to transfers is he doesn't capitalise in January windows when we are in a good position and literally one (possibly two at a stretch) signing COULD be the difference between 4th and 5th. Btw, I'm not explicitly talking about 2011/12, the following season was arguably worse considering Ade was at the ACN and we had one fit striker, who predicatably got injured.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: What the absolute F??????

Statements like that are just as hyperbolic as some you ridicule although I'm guessing that's intentional.

Eh? Where have I ridiculed someone else's use of hyperbole? And yes, my use of it was of course intentional. That's kinda of the point of hyperbole!

I don't blame him for not signing the above, my main criticism when it comes to transfers is he doesn't capitalise in January windows when we are in a good position and literally one (possibly two at a stretch) signing COULD be the difference between 4th and 5th. Btw, I'm not explicitly talking about 2011/12, the following season was arguably worse considering Ade was at the ACN and we had one fit striker, who predicatably got injured.

Just to be clear, my post wasn't criticising or referring to any post of yours, specifically. It was a general observation about some fans' opinion about Levy's failure to sign certain players.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Re: What the absolute F??????

I really liked AVB and was sorry he was sacked (especially at the time he was), but let's get it straight that it's easy for a coach after being sacked "I didn't want x player". Martin Jol did the same thing. At the end of the day, it's their reputation, image and employability for future jobs that they will always be looking to protect.
Remember, i liked AVB, but i think it a stretch to say 4 of the 7 weren't wanted by him. The fact that Chadli, Soldado, Paulinho and Capoue were ever-present in the first 34 league games says otherwise...

Lloris himself recently said the players should take a hard look at themselves and NOT blame the coach. He's seen who has come and gone over the last few years and doesn't seem to be making ANY excuses for them. Any player playing with Bale will find it hard to play with others right now, save for the CL elite players who contest semi-finals every year. However, those players have a chance to make us fans forget about Bale...

Like i say, the article seems like convenient BS

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-did-not-want-four-seven-summer-signings.html

Yeah, he would have played them, because they were his signings that he wanted (Save for Chadli, and I'm not sure he featured as much as you might remember). It isn't a stretch given our dealings this summer, it really isn't.

Lloris' isn't making any excuses for the players in public. He's professional to that extent. However, what he may think privately is a whole other deal. Like I said, it is plausible. Whether it's BS or not is open to discussion, but it is plausible regardless.

 

[NWND]

Statements like that are just as hyperbolic as some you ridicule although I'm guessing that's intentional.

I don't blame him for not signing the above, my main criticism when it comes to transfers is he doesn't capitalise in January windows when we are in a good position and literally one (possibly two at a stretch) signing COULD be the difference between 4th and 5th. Btw, I'm not explicitly talking about 2011/12, the following season was arguably worse considering Ade was at the ACN and we had one fit striker, who predicatably got injured.

January is a very poor time to buy actually and it's a window used by the desperate.


Buying significant deals in Jan is normally a sign of failure of your long term and summer strategy. Its also rare that players have the immediate impact and hit the ground running in the manner you describe.

 

[Spur of the moment]

January is a very poor time to buy actually and it's a window used by the desperate.


Buying significant deals in Jan is normally a sign of failure of your long term and summer strategy. Its also rare that players WE SIGN have the immediate impact and hit the ground running in the manner you describe.

Fixed

(cf Southampton)

 

[DTA]

The games that we lost after Christmas that year were:

Emirates Marketing Project away
Arsenal away
Manchester United home
Everton away
Norwich City home
Chelsea - FA Cup SF Wembley
QPR away

and Nelsen started none of these games. We drew eight games in all competitions during the same period and the only game that Nelson started was the FA Cup game with Bolton.

How many points behind arsenal did we finish that season? From memory I think it was one or two, do you really believe that tevez and Cahill wouldn't have been worth 3 extra points to us? I'm a levy fan, but he messed up in that window and messed up sacking harry

 

[jimmyb]

How many points behind arsenal did we finish that season? From memory I think it was one or two, do you really believe that tevez and Cahill wouldn't have been worth 3 extra points to us? I'm a levy fan, but he messed up in that window and messed up sacking harry

Do you know for a fact that either Cahill or Tevez were gettable?

I'm not so sure that they were.

As to sacking Harry...........sorry but it was Harry himself who messed up in too many ways. He was his own worst enemy. Besides, which, shorn of King, Modric and Bale, it's debatable whether we would be in a much better position now even if Harry had stayed. He's not exactly impressed at QPR, after all, despite having spent tens of millions and having a considerably bigger wage budget than many of QPR's direct rivals.

 

[milo]

How many points behind arsenal did we finish that season? From memory I think it was one or two, do you really believe that tevez and Cahill wouldn't have been worth 3 extra points to us? I'm a levy fan, but he messed up in that window and messed up sacking harry

We finished one point behind Arsenal.

This is all hypothetical, we have no idea how obtainable either player was.

Cahill's head could easily have already been turned by Chelsea.

I am not sure how easy it would have been to sign Tevez either, this was during the period when he was banned by City for refusing to come on against Bayern Munich. This was not resolved until February.

We also have no idea what impact either player would have had. Tevez on his day can be a great player but he can also be very disruptive. It would be a bold move for a chairman to sign him knowing that there was a better than average chance that his manager would be leaving in five months time.

Whilst Cahill was decent back in 2011, he was not as good as he is now. Better back up than we had, possibly but it is not a gargantuan improvement?

 

[mudshark]

I think it is fair to say that ENIC's time in charge has been marked by a number of bungles and missed opportunities, of which (other than the handling of the Jol/Ramos affair) the failure to bolster the squad in that January window against another end-of-season collapse is the most egregious by a street. I've often said that Levy is fond of using the word ambition but, to my mind, has failed to demonstrate enough of it at crucial times.

 

[DTA]

Do you know for a fact that either Cahill or Tevez were gettable?

I'm not so sure that they were.

As to sacking Harry...........sorry but it was Harry himself who messed up in too many ways. He was his own worst enemy. Besides, which, shorn of King, Modric and Bale, it's debatable whether we would be in a much better position now even if Harry had stayed. He's not exactly impressed at QPR, after all, despite having spent tens of millions and having a considerably bigger wage budget than many of QPR's direct rivals.

It seemed at the time that they were gettable but i admit no one outside the club knows for sure so I'm willing to accept they weren't.... But and it is a big BUT... The next on Harry's list couldn't have been neilson and saha... Surely you see that?

 

[glorygloryeze]

It seemed at the time that they were gettable but i admit no one outside the club knows for sure so I'm willing to accept they weren't.... But and it is a big BUT... The next on Harry's list couldn't have been neilson and saha... Surely you see that?

Why weren't those typical Harry siginings? Isn't he famed for buying 'top, top, old seasoned professionals' after all?

What was the difference in these type of siginings to the Phil Nevilles or David Beckhams that he openly tried to get to come to us in the previous year or so?

 

[Finney Is Back]

Do you know for a fact that either Cahill or Tevez were gettable?

I'm not so sure that they were.

As to sacking Harry...........sorry but it was Harry himself who messed up in too many ways. He was his own worst enemy. Besides, which, shorn of King, Modric and Bale, it's debatable whether we would be in a much better position now even if Harry had stayed. He's not exactly impressed at QPR, after all, despite having spent tens of millions and having a considerably bigger wage budget than many of QPR's direct rivals.

IMO Cahill wasn't gettable. As soon as we went in for him Chelsea counter offered and we cannot compete with their resources.

Tevez on the other hand I think would've been gettable. He was persona non grata at Emirates Marketing Project and I think there was a deal to be done. It would've been expensive whatever way we looked at it, but I think if the will was there then we could've got him. I also think he would've fired us to 3rd place (or better!)

 

[DTA]

Why weren't those typical Harry siginings? Isn't he famed for buying 'top, top, old seasoned professionals' after all?

What was the difference in these type of siginings to the Phil Nevilles or David Beckhams that he openly tried to get to come to us in the previous year or so?

Is that a serious question?

 

[jimmyb]

It seemed at the time that they were gettable but i admit no one outside the club knows for sure so I'm willing to accept they weren't.... But and it is a big BUT... The next on Harry's list couldn't have been neilson and saha... Surely you see that?

I don't doubt that neither player was Harry's first choice. Maybe not even second choice either.

But I genuinely see no reason to doubt that Harry might have identified those players as useful signings. One was a highly experienced, solid central defender who had done a great job for another Premier League club for many years - including having been their captain. The other was an equally experienced, talented player who had played for some top Premier League clubs but whose career had been blighted by injury. Both are types that Harry has frequently bought - before and since.